OT refutation of Augustinianism

[webdog]

“Seek the Lord while he may be found;
call upon him while he is near;
7 let the wicked forsake his way,
and the unrighteous man his thoughts;
let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him,
and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

How can one return to The Lord when they were created separated?

 

[convicted1]

Brother webdog, the problem with some on here is they reject Federal Headship, and Adam being our head. The reason why this passage states it that way is because if Adam had not sinned, we would still be in the good graces of God. But when he fell, we fell, being in Adam. Adam caused us to be born with a sin nature, and to be opposed to God from the very get go.

That's why it says in Luke 16 and the father saying his prodigal son is alive again. Christ restored fellowship for us, when Adam broke that fellowship. We lost that life when Adam fell. We gained that life back when Jesus Christ, the last Adam redeemed us.

 

[kyredneck]

'The problem with some on here' is ignorance that the scripture makes no bones revealing that the elect can be wicked and unrighteous and have an evil heart of unbelief and need to repent and return unto the Lord.

Isa 55 is a wonderful prophetic passage from which the OP has snatched a fragment from and used totally out of context.

 

[convicted1]

It's gonna get interesting in here....Brother Wes is replying...j/k with ya, Brother Wes :saint:


And here come these verses:

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Again, I love you Brother Wes....just kidding with you... :saint:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

'The problem with some on here' is ignorance that the scripture makes no bones revealing that the elect can be wicked and unrighteous and have an evil heart of unbelief and need to repent and return unto the Lord.

Isa 55 is a wonderful prophetic passage from which the OP has snatched a fragment from and used totally out of context.

So he is ignorant.....:laugh: and disingenuous :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It's gonna get interesting in here....Brother Wes is replying...j/k with ya, Brother Wes :saint:


And here come these verses:

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Again, I love you Brother Wes....just kidding with you... :saint:

Oh ya love him do ya

 

[Winman]

Brother webdog, the problem with some on here is they reject Federal Headship, and Adam being our head. The reason why this passage states it that way is because if Adam had not sinned, we would still be in the good graces of God. But when he fell, we fell, being in Adam. Adam caused us to be born with a sin nature, and to be opposed to God from the very get go.

That's why it says in Luke 16 and the father saying his prodigal son is alive again. Christ restored fellowship for us, when Adam broke that fellowship. We lost that life when Adam fell. We gained that life back when Jesus Christ, the last Adam redeemed us.

That's nonsense Willis and you know it. The prodigal son was NOT born lost, he was born in his father's house and belonged to him. The first thing we are told is that a certain man who obviously represents God the father in this parable had two sons.

Luk 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:

Only when the prodigal son knowingly and willingly chose to leave his father's house and go out in sin did he become joined to a citizen of that far country, whom I believe represents the devil. This is when we become children of wrath as described in Ephesians 2:1-3.

Luk 15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

Despite being brought so low and filthy in sin, literally living and eating in the pig sty, the prodigal son was able to see the consequences of his sin and come to his senses. He resolved to repent and return to his father, whom he knew to be kind and forgiving.

Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

When the boy repented toward his father, while he was yet a great way off, his father saw him coming. I believe this represents God's foreknowledge, God knows in advance those persons who will repent and sees them returning long before they actually get there. These are God's "sheep" who will hear his words and follow him.

Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

This agrees perfectly with scripture that says we are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" in 1 Pet 1:2. It shows the Father is the one who sees a person coming in faith before it actually happens. I believe these are those persons whom God chose "in Christ" before the foundation of the world and gave to his Son Jesus.

When the boy repents twice the father says he is "alive again".

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Jesus knows correct doctrine better than Augustine, Calvin, Luther and all these so called "scholars". Jesus said the boy was alive again, which proves he was not born "dead" in sin as many falsely teach.

The term "in Adam" is found only once in all of scripture and does not support Original Sin at all, in fact it refutes it.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

First, this scripture is describing physical death, not spiritual. 1 Corinthians 15 concerns the resurrection of our phyical bodies, not spiritual death.

Second, this verse does not support Original Sin. It does not say we are born dead, in fact it says "in Adam all die" which is FUTURE tense. It shows that all men are born alive, but WILL DIE. So, this verse completely refutes we are born dead in sin.

Thirdly, the Federal Headship Theory is a relatively new theory in Christian thought that did not even exist until the 17th century. Says Dr. MacGorman who taught for 56 years at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary:

3. In the seventeenth century Johann Cocceius proposed a different theory of original sin. He taught that God entered into a covenant with Adam as the federal head of the human race. If Adam obeyed God, all mankind would receive eternal life; but if he disobeyed, all would be condemned to corruption and death. Since Adam sinned, God imputed his sin to all his descendants. This has been called the Federal Theory of Original Sin or the Theory of Condemnation by Covenant. It has influenced greatly the churches of the Reformed tradition. However, there is not one shred of evidence in the Bible that God ever entered into such a covenant with Adam. The theory was born in Europe, not Eden.

So, this Federal Headship Theory is a newcomer to Christianity unknown to early Christians. It does not have a single word of support in scripture. The scriptures clearly say the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father, nor shall the father bear the iniquity of his son, but each man dies for his own sin.

 

[Winman]

It's gonna get interesting in here....Brother Wes is replying...j/k with ya, Brother Wes :saint:

And here come these verses:

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Again, I love you Brother Wes....just kidding with you... :saint:

Willis, this just shows that you yourself know there is much scripture that clearly argues against Original Sin, you are able to quote them yourself.

You left out several important verses however;

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

The entire 18th chapter of Ezekiel clearly refutes Original Sin. The Jews had fallen into this error themselves and had a proverb that said the fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge. God said the Jews would not have the occasion to use this proverb any more in Israel.

Eze 18:1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,

This passage of scripture is written specifically to refute the false doctrine of Original Sin. God clearly and plainly teaches that each man is accountable for his own actions, he does not bear the sins of his father, neither does his father bear his sins, but each man dies for his own sin.

We have had some here who argue this chapter only concerns civil law, but that is easily shown false;

18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.

24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

This chapter is not speaking of temporal death, but eternal. It speaks of a man dying "in his iniquity", "in his trespass", "in his sin", "in them" shall he die. This is speaking of dying eternal death as a lost sinner as Jesus himself said men would die if they did not believe on him.

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Jesus said of a man that does not believe in him, "in your sins ye shall die". This is speaking of dying eternal death as a lost sinner. And this is also what the 18th chapter of Ezekiel is saying.

So, men are not born dead in Adam's sin as many falsely teach, scripture directly teaches against this. This false doctrine became popular because of Augustine and has caused more error than any other false doctrine such as Baptismal Regeneration and the Immaculate Conception.

And yet one more verse that clearly shows we were not born dead in sin, separated from God is 1 Peter 2:25.

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Just as Jesus described a shepherd who had 100 sheep, but one went astray and became lost, Peter also describes us as sheep who have gone astray from the flock and become lost, but are now RETURNED to the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls, Jesus.

Words have meaning, you cannot return someplace you have never been. This scripture proves we are not born dead in sin separated from God, but go out in sin and become separated later. When we repent and believe we are now RETURNED to Jesus.

So Willis, you have no excuse, you yourself know there is much scripture that easily argues against Original Sin.

 

[Crabtownboy]

“Seek the Lord while he may be found;
call upon him while he is near;
7 let the wicked forsake his way,
and the unrighteous man his thoughts;
let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him,
and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

How can one return to The Lord when they were created separated?

Free will.

 

[convicted1]

Brother Wes, your doctrine is all over the place...I can't pin it down.

You say babies are born sinless. Your side of this "continental wide" debate say the word "all" means everyone w/o exception, and we get accused of continually redefining the word "all". So, if "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God", and babies die before ever sinning, then how can "all mean all w/o exception", seeing they died before they sinned?


Furthermore, when lust is conceived, it bringeth forth sin. And when sin is finished, it bringeth forth death. How can someone sinless die? The penalty for sin IS death. Again, how can sinless people die?

Jesus came to atone for sinners. Babies have no need for an atonement, seeing they're sinless. Babies go to heaven w/o the shed blood of Jesus.

 

[convicted1]

Oh ya love him do ya

Very much so. Though we disagree with each other, I still consider Brother Wes a precious Brother in the Lord. :thumbs:

 

[Winman]

Brother Wes, your doctrine is all over the place...I can't pin it down.

You say babies are born sinless. Your side of this "continental wide" debate say the word "all" means everyone w/o exception, and we get accused of continually redefining the word "all". So, if "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God", and babies die before ever sinning, then how can "all mean all w/o exception", seeing they died before they sinned?


Furthermore, when lust is conceived, it bringeth forth sin. And when sin is finished, it bringeth forth death. How can someone sinless die? The penalty for sin IS death. Again, how can sinless people die?

Jesus came to atone for sinners. Babies have no need for an atonement, seeing they're sinless. Babies go to heaven w/o the shed blood of Jesus.

I simply don't believe the scriptures are addressing babies and very little children.

In the Jewish home, children were under their parents until age 12 for girls and age 13 for boys. This is when they studied and learned the law and were considered accountable. This is the Bar Mitzvah (men) and Bat Mitzvah (women).

Under Jewish Law, children are not obligated to observe the commandments, although they are encouraged to do so as much as possible to learn the obligations they will have as adults. At the age of 13 (12 for girls), children become obligated to observe the commandments. The bar mitzvah ceremony formally, publicly marks the assumption of that obligation, along with the corresponding right to take part in leading religious services, to count in a minyan (the minimum number of people needed to perform certain parts of religious services), to form binding contracts, to testify before religious courts and to marry.

A Jewish boy automatically becomes a bar mitzvah upon reaching the age of 13 years, and a girl upon reaching the age of 12 years. No ceremony is needed to confer these rights and obligations. The popular bar mitzvah ceremony is not required, and does not fulfill any commandment. It is certainly not, as one episode of the Simpsons would have you believe, necessary to have a bar mitzvah in order to be considered a Jew! The bar or bat mitzvah is a relatively modern innovation, not mentioned in the Talmud, and the elaborate ceremonies and receptions that are commonplace today were unheard of as recently as a century ago.

http://www.jewfaq.org/barmitz.htm

So, to the Jewish mind, the scriptures are not addressing children at all, but teens and adults. They simply did not believe little children were accountable under the law. So when Paul said, "For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God", he was speaking of persons who had learned the law and were held responsible under it.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Is Paul speaking to persons who do not know the law? NO. By the way, this verse is more proof that when Paul said he was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and he died (Rom 7:9), he was speaking of when a Jewish man learns the law.

Scripture does not show that little children are sinners, Romans 9:11 shows that. Jacob and Esau had done no evil in their mothers's womb. This refutes that Paul taught all persons sinned "in Adam" as is falsely taught. Being "in Adam" speaks of physical corruption and death that we do inherit from Adam, not spiritual death.

Experience shows that it is about puberty when people "go bad". Even the worst of criminals were usually good children. Most start to go wrong about the time they enter puberty. Even the scriptures show this.

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Scripture does not say man's imagination is evil from birth, but from his youth. This is speaking of about the time a child enters puberty.

So, there is no contradiction in my view whatsoever, it is completely reasonable, and does not contradict scripture.

Trust me, I've put a LOT of thought, study, and prayer into this.

 

[Winman]

Furthermore, when lust is conceived, it bringeth forth sin. And when sin is finished, it bringeth forth death. How can someone sinless die? The penalty for sin IS death. Again, how can sinless people die?

Jesus came to atone for sinners. Babies have no need for an atonement, seeing they're sinless. Babies go to heaven w/o the shed blood of Jesus.

I failed to address these questions.

First, I am not, nor have I ever denied that little children do bad things. I have 8 children, trust me, I know even little children can do wrong. However, I do not believe God holds them accountable, because they do not fully understand their actions, especially in an eternal sense. A little child taking his neighbors toy does not realize he could go to hell for eternity for that, but a teenager or adult can.

And this is what scriptures show, God holds persons accountable according to that KNOWLEDGE they have.

Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

As far as needing Jesus, even though babies and little children have not sinned, they are still under the curse that Adam brought, and indeed this is why babies and little children die, as do animals who cannot commit sin. And Jesus also paid for this physical death and rose again so that we might all be resurrected. So babies and little children do indeed need the blood of Jesus.

Now, I have a little more to say about these babies and little children who die sinless. I believe there is scripture that says they are treated somewhat different in heaven. There is no great celebration for these persons as there is for lost sinners who repent. Jesus showed this several times in Luke 15.

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

And what did the elder son who never sinned complain of? That no celebration or party had ever been given him.

Luk 15:25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

The elder son claimed he had served his father many years (died when he was a baby or small child), and had not transgressed his father's commandment at any time.

Did the father call the boy a liar or hypocrite? NO, he very kindly called him Son, which proves this is not a lost Pharisee as some claim. He says "thou art EVER with me" showing he was NEVER separated by sin from his father, and "all that I have is thine" showing he received an inheritance.

There is no way the elder son represents the Pharisees, Jesus called the Pharisees "serpents" "hypocrites" and "whited sepulchres". Jesus never gave the Pharisees even the implication that they were righteous.

But note that there was never a party or celebration for this elder son, just as there was no celebration for the 99 just persons which needed no repentance in vs. 7.

The father then tells the elder it was "meet" that they should celebrate, because his brother had been "lost" but was now "found", he had been "dead", but was now "alive again". This agrees with the first parable where one sheep went astray and became lost. Being alive "again" shows that we are not born dead in sin.

And this verse also shows the elder son was never lost, and never dead as his brother was, so this cannot possibly be speaking of the Pharisees as many falsely interpret.

 

[salzer mtn]

Very much so. Though we disagree with each other, I still consider Brother Wes a precious Brother in the Lord. :thumbs:

Who is brother Wes ?

 

[webdog]

Brother webdog, the problem with some on here is they reject Federal Headship, and Adam being our head. The reason why this passage states it that way is because if Adam had not sinned, we would still be in the good graces of God. But when he fell, we fell, being in Adam. Adam caused us to be born with a sin nature, and to be opposed to God from the very get go.

That's why it says in Luke 16 and the father saying his prodigal son is alive again. Christ restored fellowship for us, when Adam broke that fellowship. We lost that life when Adam fell. We gained that life back when Jesus Christ, the last Adam redeemed us.

So if Adam is the "federal head"... And man is created dead, how does he " return" to a state he was never in?

That would be like me saying I returned to Russia on my very first trip there ever, or receiving a phone call saying I have to return to Russia when I've never even crossed the Atlantic before in my life.

 

[webdog]

'The problem with some on here' is ignorance that the scripture makes no bones revealing that the elect can be wicked and unrighteous and have an evil heart of unbelief and need to repent and return unto the Lord.

Isa 55 is a wonderful prophetic passage from which the OP has snatched a fragment from and used totally out of context.

In typical red neck fashion, you didn't answer the question.

Returning to something or someone that you have never been to is ridiculousness. That is the typical double speak of the determinist.

 

[DHK]

In typical red neck fashion, you didn't answer the question.

Returning to something or someone that you have never been to is ridiculousness. That is the typical double speak of the determinist.

In your definition the unsaved would never have to repent.
The word also has the connotation of "return to the Lord," though it means "turn to the Lord," or change one's mind, or change direction. It can include all of the above. Can the unsaved "return to the Lord," having never been there in the first place?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Who is brother Wes ?

Willis 's BFF

 

[webdog]

In your definition the unsaved would never have to repent.
The word also has the connotation of "return to the Lord," though it means "turn to the Lord," or change one's mind, or change direction. It can include all of the above. Can the unsaved "return to the Lord," having never been there in the first place?

The unsaved put themselves in that position and the Lord commands them to return. My definition fully supports that. Repent means to simply go in the opposite direction which implies returning to the place you once were.

 

[DHK]

The unsaved put themselves in that position and the Lord commands them to return. My definition fully supports that. Repent means to simply go in the opposite direction which implies returning to the place you once were.

How can the unsaved return to the place they once were if they never were saved in the first place. "Innocence" cannot get one into heaven. Only Christ can do that.