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- Thread starter billwald
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I would certainly "hope" your tradition had a "stopping point". So no "prayers to the dead"??
We prefer to leave this world - this life AND to enter into that New world - that New life where we will be WITH Christ - at His appearing "Comfort one another with these words" 1Thess 4. He will "come again AND receive US to HIMSELF that WHERE He is THERE we may be also". John 14.
Since your work on 2Cor 5 did not produce this quote -- I ask again
"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."
WHERE do you suppose they are all getting this fabrication? How do they all know "to make it up"??
In Christ,
Bob
Bob, you know better than that. We Lutherans do not pray to the dead nor do Protestants in general. I gave you the literal translation of 2 Corinthians 5:8. It says just that. Paul wants to go away from home out of the body and to come home to the Lord. His body was his home here on earth. When he died, he went to his home with the Lord. Where is the Lord? In Heaven. Paul went straight to Heaven when he died. No Purgatory. No soul sleep. Just straight to Heaven. As is mentioned in I Thessalonians 4 and John 14, Jesus will come again and the believers who had died will be reunited with their new resurrected physical bodies and the believers still alive when Jesus returns will be changed.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I gave you the quote provided by the poster on this thread.
The one NOT found in scripture.
Since your work on 2Cor 5 did not produce this quote -- I ask again
"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."
Your wording of 2Cor 5 did not produce that statement above.
I simply note that the missing text above has been quoted repeatedly by different sources on this board recently - they all seem to KNOW that they NEED it some place in the Bible.
I agree with them - they "needed it".
Too bad it is not there.
The one NOT found in scripture.
Since your work on 2Cor 5 did not produce this quote -- I ask again
"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."
Your wording of 2Cor 5 did not produce that statement above.
I simply note that the missing text above has been quoted repeatedly by different sources on this board recently - they all seem to KNOW that they NEED it some place in the Bible.
I agree with them - they "needed it".
Too bad it is not there.
As I explained before, when Paul died, he went directly to Heaven, home with the Lord.
I Thes. 4 and John 14 speak of Jesus' return, when there will be a resurrection of the dead. It is a physical resurrection.
Since the spirits of those who died in Christ are already in Heaven, when Christ returns, these spirits will reunite with their new bodies. Why is that so hard to grasp?
Here is some food for thought: When calamity comes, the wicked are brought down, but even in death the righteous have a refuge. Proverbs 14:32 NIV. That passage would make no sense if there is soul sleep. What kind of a refuge is that? Now let's go to the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. Lazarus dies and is taken by the angels to Abraham's bosom, where he is comforted. Larazus is experiencing a conscious afterlife and is comforted. No Purgatory and no soul sleep. Now THAT'S a refuge!
I Thes. 4 and John 14 speak of Jesus' return, when there will be a resurrection of the dead. It is a physical resurrection.
Since the spirits of those who died in Christ are already in Heaven, when Christ returns, these spirits will reunite with their new bodies. Why is that so hard to grasp?
Here is some food for thought: When calamity comes, the wicked are brought down, but even in death the righteous have a refuge. Proverbs 14:32 NIV. That passage would make no sense if there is soul sleep. What kind of a refuge is that? Now let's go to the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. Lazarus dies and is taken by the angels to Abraham's bosom, where he is comforted. Larazus is experiencing a conscious afterlife and is comforted. No Purgatory and no soul sleep. Now THAT'S a refuge!
I think Claudia covered the Bible verses quite well on this issue.
1. In addition to the Bible, if Rc wants, Rc's favorite Apocrypha 2 Macc 12:40-45 mention the dead who are fallen asleep. This means that the dead are asleep.
2. To be present with Lord doesn't deny "Sleep"
The dead are present with Lord by sleeping in His bosom.(fallen asleep in Christ - 1 Cor 15:18)
1 Cor 15:
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
3. Luke 16 Lazarus story doesn't say anything about the timing. It should be taken as a parable, which covers many things.
Soul sleep is mentioned in many spots including 1 Cor 11:30, 1 Cor 15:18, 20, 1 Thess 4:13,14,15,
Ephesian 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
Do we need more?
1. In addition to the Bible, if Rc wants, Rc's favorite Apocrypha 2 Macc 12:40-45 mention the dead who are fallen asleep. This means that the dead are asleep.
2. To be present with Lord doesn't deny "Sleep"
The dead are present with Lord by sleeping in His bosom.(fallen asleep in Christ - 1 Cor 15:18)
1 Cor 15:
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
3. Luke 16 Lazarus story doesn't say anything about the timing. It should be taken as a parable, which covers many things.
Soul sleep is mentioned in many spots including 1 Cor 11:30, 1 Cor 15:18, 20, 1 Thess 4:13,14,15,
Ephesian 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
Do we need more?
That does it! I'm not debating with you Seventh-Day Adventists about anything! No matter what I say to refute what you say, you always have some kind of explanation. It does no good to quote Scripture to you because you already have it interpreted accord at the SDA church. You can sleep in the dirt if you want when you die, but I'm going directly to Heaven when I die, no Purgatory and no soul sleep!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Bible just couldnt be any plainer and simpler than this, and if you cant accept this then it wouldnt matter if I showed you a hundred verses saying the same thing:
Job 21:32: Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.
John 5:28,29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Acts 2:29
29: Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
34: For David is not ascended into the heavens
1Thes:4:
15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Job 21:32: Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.
John 5:28,29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Acts 2:29
29: Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
34: For David is not ascended into the heavens
1Thes:4:
15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Claudia, all of those verses you gave have to do with physical resurrection, not soul sleep. There is nothing I can say to you to convince you there is a conscious afterlife between death and resurrection, and there is nothing you can say that will convince me there is soul sleep. Therefore, there is no debate to be had or won.
Like I said, you and your SDA propagandist friends can lay in the dirt when you die until Judgment Day, but I will go directly to Heaven and be with Jesus when I die. I have eternal life now and it will not be interrupted by the false teaching of soul sleep.
Like I said, you and your SDA propagandist friends can lay in the dirt when you die until Judgment Day, but I will go directly to Heaven and be with Jesus when I die. I have eternal life now and it will not be interrupted by the false teaching of soul sleep.
The Bible is so clear on this subject that it’s a tragedy that so many
Christians take one bible verse and build a whole theology on that
John 6:
39: And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again AT THE LAST DAY.
40: And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up AT THE LAST DAY.
44: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up AT THE LAST DAY.
54: Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up AT THE LAST DAY.
I Cor. 15:
22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE.
23: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING
When are the wicked gathered and burned?
Matthew 13:
40: As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41: The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42: And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43: Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
John 5:
28: Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that ARE IN THE GRAVES shall hear his voice,
29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Job 21:30,32
30: That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
32: Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.
[ April 24, 2006, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]
Christians take one bible verse and build a whole theology on that
John 6:
39: And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again AT THE LAST DAY.
40: And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up AT THE LAST DAY.
44: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up AT THE LAST DAY.
54: Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up AT THE LAST DAY.
I Cor. 15:
22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE.
23: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING
When are the wicked gathered and burned?
Matthew 13:
40: As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41: The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42: And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43: Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
John 5:
28: Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that ARE IN THE GRAVES shall hear his voice,
29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Job 21:30,32
30: That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
32: Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.
[ April 24, 2006, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]
There are literally SCORES of Bible verses that SO CLEARLY tell us that the righteous wont go to heaven till the second coming of Christ and the wicked wont go to hell right when they die either.
I just can hardly believe it when Christians just stubbornly close their eyes to all of this. Its amazing.
Sad too that they are so steeped in tradition over the Bible. I can understand Catholics doing that but when Protestants do it, it is astounding.
I just can hardly believe it when Christians just stubbornly close their eyes to all of this. Its amazing.
Sad too that they are so steeped in tradition over the Bible. I can understand Catholics doing that but when Protestants do it, it is astounding.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Paul provides comfort to saints who have lost loved ones to death.
The entire discussion is about “people” not body parts! The body parts “return to the dust” by “contrast” to the “PERSON” that is rise again. The body parts “decay and return to the dust” whereas the “person” is the one who has “fallen asleep” according to Paul.
“Those who are asleep” are the saints “the Dead in Christ” – by contrast “their body parts” simply decay and return to dust.
#2. Paul argues that our HOPE concerning “those who have fallen asleep” is in the bodily resurrection of Christ! God will raise THEM along with Christ. And as he already said to this church in 1Cor 15 -- each in their own order. Christ at HIS resurrection and then the rest of the saints at the coming of the Lord.
#3. Paul then argues that those PEOPLE that we knew that have fallen asleep will in fact get taken before us -- for “The dead in Christ will rise FIRST”. So this assures us that they are not being left – in fact they are being taken BEFORE US to be WITH the Lord. But Paul says this happens at the coming of the Lord!! – vs 15
#4. All of the focus for our hope concerning the dead is on the “Coming of the Lord” and the fact of the bodily resurrection. No other “time” is offered in 1Thess 4 as the focus for our “hope” regarding those persons that have died! “The DEAD in Christ” is the term Paul uses to refer to “Those” whom we knew that have died. THOSE that we would be inclined to grieve over.
#5. They rise up and we are caught up WITH them and in THIS way shall the saints - all the saints – ever be “WITH” the Lord. Finally we see the mechanism for being “WITH” the Lord.. And Paul points to this focus on the resurrection taking place at the “Coming of the Lord” (the one John Calls the FIRST resurrection future to his day in Rev 20:4-5) as the event upon which our hope is placed. Christ does the same thing in John 14 “If I go away I will come again and receive you unto Myself IN ORDER THAT WHERE I am THERE you may be ALSO”
The entire discussion is about “people” not body parts! The body parts “return to the dust” by “contrast” to the “PERSON” that is rise again. The body parts “decay and return to the dust” whereas the “person” is the one who has “fallen asleep” according to Paul.
“Those who are asleep” are the saints “the Dead in Christ” – by contrast “their body parts” simply decay and return to dust.
#1. Paul argues that the PERSON that has died is to be referred to as “The THOSE who ARE asleep”. “Those who HAVE fallen asleep”. He does not say “Those who have a body and IT fell asleep” – vs 13
#2. Paul argues that our HOPE concerning “those who have fallen asleep” is in the bodily resurrection of Christ! God will raise THEM along with Christ. And as he already said to this church in 1Cor 15 -- each in their own order. Christ at HIS resurrection and then the rest of the saints at the coming of the Lord.
#3. Paul then argues that those PEOPLE that we knew that have fallen asleep will in fact get taken before us -- for “The dead in Christ will rise FIRST”. So this assures us that they are not being left – in fact they are being taken BEFORE US to be WITH the Lord. But Paul says this happens at the coming of the Lord!! – vs 15
#4. All of the focus for our hope concerning the dead is on the “Coming of the Lord” and the fact of the bodily resurrection. No other “time” is offered in 1Thess 4 as the focus for our “hope” regarding those persons that have died! “The DEAD in Christ” is the term Paul uses to refer to “Those” whom we knew that have died. THOSE that we would be inclined to grieve over.
#5. They rise up and we are caught up WITH them and in THIS way shall the saints - all the saints – ever be “WITH” the Lord. Finally we see the mechanism for being “WITH” the Lord.. And Paul points to this focus on the resurrection taking place at the “Coming of the Lord” (the one John Calls the FIRST resurrection future to his day in Rev 20:4-5) as the event upon which our hope is placed. Christ does the same thing in John 14 “If I go away I will come again and receive you unto Myself IN ORDER THAT WHERE I am THERE you may be ALSO”
Well here's some more SDA Bible Propaganda for you:
John 6:
39: And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again AT THE LAST DAY.
40: And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up AT THE LAST DAY.
44: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up AT THE LAST DAY.
54: Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up AT THE LAST DAY.
Notice how the fact that you HAVE eternal life doesnt mean you will go to heaven right when you die?
Our "SDA Propaganda" is really something, isnt it? LOL!
Claudia
KellyWhite
New Member
I KNOW that many of my grandparents are watching after me in heaven. It is their oppotunity to know their descenants who were born after their death.
I've done considerable research in genealogy and know quite a bit about many of my ancestors. I think of them and their respective paths through life very often. I converse with them on a daily basis.
I've done considerable research in genealogy and know quite a bit about many of my ancestors. I think of them and their respective paths through life very often. I converse with them on a daily basis.