Our people in Heaven

[BobRyan]

Don't you just love it when the writings of Paul get the response "SDA propaganda"??

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Paul provides comfort to saints who have lost loved ones to death.

The entire discussion is about “people” not body parts! The body parts “return to the dust” by “contrast” to the “PERSON” that is rise again. The body parts “decay and return to the dust” whereas the “person” is the one who has “fallen asleep” according to Paul.

“Those who are asleep” are the saints “the Dead in Christ” – by contrast “their body parts” simply decay and return to dust.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> 1Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

#1. Paul argues that the PERSON that has died is to be referred to as “The THOSE who ARE asleep”. “Those who HAVE fallen asleep”. He does not say “Those who have a body and IT fell asleep” – vs 13

#2. Paul argues that our HOPE concerning “those who have fallen asleep” is in the bodily resurrection of Christ! God will raise THEM along with Christ. And as he already said to this church in 1Cor 15 -- each in their own order. Christ at HIS resurrection and then the rest of the saints at the coming of the Lord.

#3. Paul then argues that those PEOPLE that we knew that have fallen asleep will in fact get taken before us -- for “The dead in Christ will rise FIRST”. So this assures us that they are not being left – in fact they are being taken BEFORE US to be WITH the Lord. But Paul says this happens at the coming of the Lord!! – vs 15

#4. All of the focus for our hope concerning the dead is on the “Coming of the Lord” and the fact of the bodily resurrection. No other “time” is offered in 1Thess 4 as the focus for our “hope” regarding those persons that have died! “The DEAD in Christ” is the term Paul uses to refer to “Those” whom we knew that have died. THOSE that we would be inclined to grieve over.

#5. They rise up and we are caught up WITH them and in THIS way shall the saints - all the saints – ever be “WITH” the Lord. Finally we see the mechanism for being “WITH” the Lord.. And Paul points to this focus on the resurrection taking place at the “Coming of the Lord” (the one John Calls the FIRST resurrection future to his day in Rev 20:4-5) as the event upon which our hope is placed. Christ does the same thing in John 14 “If I go away I will come again and receive you (THE PERSON) unto Myself IN ORDER THAT WHERE I am THERE you (THE PERSON) may be ALSO” </font>[/QUOTE]Since I ended with a quote from John - I should have said Whenever Paul and John are quoted

Life is great!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by JFox1:
As I said, Claudia, it doesn't matter what Bible verses you use because you interpret according SDA theology. I am sick and tired of your and BobRyan's SDA propadanda!!!!!

Ok calm down, I wont address anything else to you, I hope you wont mind if I post anything as long as it isnt address to you?

 

[DHK]

Jesus said to the thief on the cross:
"Today thou shalt be with me in paradise."
What did he mean? The thief's body was taken down and buried and like others awaits the resurrection. So what went to Paradise? There is no soul sleep here. Today thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Jesus uses the story of the rich man and Lazarus to teach the eternality of Hell and the reality of those who are suffering in Hell, and those present in Heaven. Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom, a figurative expression for paradise, while the rich man was being tormented in Hell. There was no soul sleep there. Both in heaven and in hell they were very much alive. It is not a parable but an actual story because of the details given. However, even if one were to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that it was a parable, words have meanings. Hell has a meaning. It means hell, eternal torment, just as the Jews understood it; not as Ellen G. White understtod it.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
--Note that Paul is always confident of this truth. It is not a hope. It is not a guess. It is a fact that he is always confident about. The fact that he has such assurance about is that while he is at home in the body he is absent from the Lord. He will presently give the corollory to that--that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. He emphasizes both sides of the same truth.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
--This is his earnest wish. He would rather be absent from the body and be present with the Lord. These truths go together. It is obvious then that there is no soul sleep. Immediately, as soon as the spirit leaves the body, it will either go to heaven or hell. In Paul's case, he was certain of his salvation, certain that he would be with the Lord. These verses are clear in their teaching.

Philippians 1:23-24 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
--Paul says he can't decide what to do (if the choice was left up to him), whether to remain here on earth and help them, or to die and be with Christ. He knows that when he dies he will be with Christ. That is what he writes. There is no soul sleep here. He also awaits the resurrection. The Bible does not teach soul sleep anywhere.
Only by making the word "sleep" very obtuse and giving it a double meaning can you even come close to a doctrine of soul sleep. But even then you must resort to taking Scripture out of its context.
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

You have to admit - if you accept that the "PERSON" is the one that "Falls asleep" and the "body parts" are that which decays, rots and "returns to dust" as the NT says - you never run into the =problem" of praying TO the dead.

Furthermore it is clear as to WHY we would not be allowed to communicate with the dead - in that case. It leaves only ONE group of spirits to "answer us".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Now for some NT text to be faithful ignored --

Short takes to see if the NT really does speak about death as “sleep” instead of being even MORE awake and “Alive in Christ”. The contrast between what man’s tradition “needs” and what the Bible says here should be “instructive” for anyone who cares about the difference.

Demonstrates the fact that Even the NT speaks of the dead saints as "asleep" Without trying to argue (decaying bodies are really just sleeping while the Person is in fact not dead – as the RC myths would have it.).

1Thess 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

Notice here the entire purpose of the 1Thess 4 information on the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ - is explicitly to address the issue of Christians who are grieving over the loss of friends/relatives who have died. In this context it appears that they are concerned for the welfare of those "dead in Christ".

1Thess 4:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.&gt;&gt;

John 11:
11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is dead,

Christ did not say “our friend’s body sleeps I go that I may wake IT”

1Cor 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
…
48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 Just as We have borne the image of the earthy, We will also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; WE will not all sleep, but WE will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and WE will be Changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But When this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, Then will come about the saying that is written, "" DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

1 Cor 11

27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.
28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Now for some NT text to be faithful ignored --

Short takes to see if the NT really does speak about death as “sleep” instead of being even MORE awake and “Alive in Christ”. The contrast between what man’s tradition “needs” and what the Bible says here should be “instructive” for anyone who cares about the difference.

Demonstrates the fact that Even the NT speaks of the dead saints as "asleep" Without trying to argue (decaying bodies are really just sleeping while the Person is in fact not dead – as the RC myths would have it.).

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
1Thess 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

Notice here the entire purpose of the 1Thess 4 information on the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ - is explicitly to address the issue of Christians who are grieving over the loss of friends/relatives who have died. In this context it appears that they are concerned for the welfare of those "dead in Christ".</font>[/QUOTE]Your point is moot Bob, and smacks of J.W. doctrine, who believe that the resurrection of Jesus was a "spirit" resurrection only. They do not believe in the bodily resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. Do you?
1Thes.4 speaks of the resurrection. The resurrection always refers to the body, and never the spirit. To speak of the resurrection of the spirit doesn't even make sense. We all know that the spirit departs from the body at death. Even the unsaved person knows that. The spirit represents life.
The "dead in Christ" are just that--dead. Their spirit has left their bodies, and their bodies are buried in the ground. Someday the bodies of those dead people will be raised to life. The resurrection always speaks of the body. Those bodies will be brought to life. They will be reunited with the spirit that is now in heaven. It will be a miracle--done in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump. The twinkling of an eye is so fast that you won't be able to notice what is happening. The only thing that is "asleep" is the body, which is dead and buried in the grave. That is what is meant by asleep. It refers to the body. It is the body, not the spirit that is raised. The resurrection always refers to the body, just as it did in the resurrection of Christ. What was raised in the resurrection of Jesus. What do you refer to when you tell the gospel, and speak of the resurrection of Jesus Christ??

Christ did not say “our friend’s body sleeps I go that I may wake IT”

Christ was speaking the common language of the people. A person who has been embalmed, buried, and been in the grave for four days is dead. One is not speaking of either body or spirit. Lazarus was dead. Lazarus, the person was dead and buried. Christ said he was sleeping. That refers to the fact that he was dead. His body was buried. It was in the grave. Lazarus was dead. It has nothing to do with the spirit. It is the body that is in the grave not the spirit. The spirit has left the body.
DHK

[ April 26, 2006, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[Claudia_T]

FOR ANYONE WHO WANTS TO ANSWER ME:

Think about this, the following pasage is referring to those who Jesus has come to rise out of their graves at the second coming:


Isa:25:
8: He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9: And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

Why would they all say "in that day" "Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation"

What have they been WAITING FOR if they had already been in heaven all the time previously before then?

and why would they "be glad and rejoice in his salvation" if they had already been saved previously and residing in heaven?


Secondly, WHY would these people say these words at that time: "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

Furthermore, it says here that at this time, at the second coming, CORRUPTION SHALL THEN PUT ON INCORRUPTION

"flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption"

so HOW THEN were they in heaven all the time previously?

1Cor:15:
50: Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?


I truly cannot understand the thinking people have about this, it makes no sense to me at all.


Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

the spirit of man is merely his breath and when he dies it goes back up to God who gave it. That

 

[Claudia_T]

double post

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said --
Demonstrates the fact that Even the NT speaks of the dead saints as "asleep" Without trying to argue (decaying bodies are really just sleeping while the Person is in fact not dead – as the RC myths would have it.).


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1Thess 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those (people) who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notice here the entire purpose of the 1Thess 4 information on the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ - is explicitly to address the issue of Christians (persons) who are grieving over the loss of friends/relatives (persons) who have died. In this context it appears that they are concerned for the welfare of those "dead in Christ". (who are in fact PERSONS)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DHK

Your point is moot Bob, and smacks of J.W. doctrine,

Agnostics would say that about JW's and Creation to those who accept the Genesis account. Just because someone is JW does not mean they are "obligated" to believe error on every topic.

The issue of PEOPLE that have lost loved one - (OTHER PEOPLE) in death - and that those PEOPLE that have died are called the "dead in Christ" (vs calling decaying body parts "the DEAD in Christ") -- is one that is clear - and remains.

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The resurrection always refers to the body, and never the spirit.

The "spirit returns to God that gave it" Eccl 12 - and the "body parts" decay and are turned to dust. "What you reap is NOT what you sow" 1Cor 15. The old body parts decayed and "dust" is not what "is raised up".

Rather what is raised up is a "new body" that is eternal "made in the heavens" 2Cor 5, "immortal" 1Cor 15. The "person sleeps" but the decaying tent merely returns to dust.

"LAZARUS" the PERSON "sleeps" I go that I may "WAKE HIM". Christ does not say "I go that I may wake IT".

The point is clear.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christ did not say “our friend’s body sleeps I go that I may wake IT”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DHK
Christ was speaking the common language of the people.

IF we could simply write off the inconvenient facts of scripture saying that the author was lying to keep in step with the false beliefs of people around him - we could "write off a ton of scripture".

Once you go down that road - it gets pretty "pick-and-choose" bumpy.

I prefer not to go there.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Christ was speaking the common language of the people. A person who has been embalmed, buried, and been in the grave for four days is dead. One is not speaking of either body or spirit. Lazarus was dead. Lazarus, the person was dead and buried. Christ said he was sleeping. That refers to the fact that he was dead. His body was buried. It was in the grave. Lazarus was dead. It has nothing to do with the spirit. [/quote]

That is a pretty self-conflicted statement between "person" and "IT was in the grave".

But lets pretend for a moment that we care about exegesis. IF one of the rules is to consider what the primary meaning WOULD be to the first order intended audience - Christ said "LAZARUS SLEEPS I go that I may wake HIM".

We KNOW that the audience thinks of a PERSON that is sleeping saying "well if he is able to sleep then he is doing well". They are VERY literal in their thinking.

The Christ said "LAZARUS IS dead" - the PERSON is dead as you pointed out. That is what the audience is thinking. They also think that when the PERSON is dead Christ wants them to think of the PERSON as though THEY sleep!

This could not be any more obvious. What is not so "obvious" is why people get upset to find other Christians believing this text exactly as Christ states it! Using the same terms "LAZARUS SLEEPS - I go that I may wake HIM" the PERSON sleeps -- not "I go that I may wake IT" the decayed flesh.

To simply speak in those terms today - get's people objecting like crazy!

In CHrist,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
FOR ANYONE WHO WANTS TO ANSWER ME:

Think about this, the following pasage is referring to those who Jesus has come to rise out of their graves at the second coming:


Isa:25:
8: He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9: And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

Why would they all say "in that day" "Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation"

What have they been WAITING FOR if they had already been in heaven all the time previously before then?

and why would they "be glad and rejoice in his salvation" if they had already been saved previously and residing in heaven?

Check other OT translations, where the word for "hell" is correctly translated "sheol." It simply means the place of the departed dead (whether saved or unsaved). A picture of it is given in Luke 16 by Jesus. Both Lazarus and the rich man were in Sheol. It has two compartments separated by a great chasm which no man can pass between. But apparently the one can see the other. The one compartment was known as hell; the other as paradise. Since the cross Christ led those in paradise to Heaven so all that remains is Hell, which will be cast into the Lake of fire (with all of its inhabitants) at the Great White Throne Judgement (Rev.20:10-15).
The saints in paradise were awaiting the resurrection just as all saints are. We all look forward to the resurrection. That is not uncommon.

Secondly, WHY would these people say these words at that time: "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

The resurrection always speaks to the body. The body will be raised at the resurrection. The grave cannot hold the body. It did not hold the body of Jesus. It will not hold the body of any saint.

Furthermore, it says here that at this time, at the second coming, CORRUPTION SHALL THEN PUT ON INCORRUPTION

Absolutely! At the resurrection the believer will receive a glorified body much like Jesus' body; an incorruptible body. It will be the same body but change to an incorruptible body.

"flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption"

Read the verse properly. It says "inherit" not enter. It is not the blood that enters anyway. Our body will be changed. It will look similar but there will be changed. It will be a fleshly body with some changes. This verse you take out of context. The word "inherit" makes a big difference.

so HOW THEN were they in heaven all the time previously?

Where in the Bible does it say the resurrected body is already in heaven?

I truly cannot understand the thinking people have about this, it makes no sense to me at all.
Claudia

It all makes perfect sense to those who choose to believe the Bible over Ellen G. White.
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

DHK said -- Christ was speaking the common language of the people. A person who has been embalmed, buried, and been in the grave for four days is dead. One is not speaking of either body or spirit. Lazarus was dead. Lazarus, the person was dead and buried. Christ said he was sleeping. That refers to the fact that he was dead. His body was buried. It was in the grave. Lazarus was dead. It has nothing to do with the spirit.

Bob said --
That is a pretty self-conflicted statement between "person" and "IT was in the grave".

But lets pretend for a moment that we care about exegesis. IF one of the rules is to consider what the primary meaning WOULD be to the first order intended audience - Christ said "LAZARUS SLEEPS I go that I may wake HIM".

We KNOW that the audience thinks of a PERSON that is sleeping saying "well if he is able to sleep then he is doing well". They are VERY literal in their thinking.

Then Christ said "LAZARUS IS dead" - the PERSON is dead as you pointed out. That is what the audience is thinking. They also think that when the PERSON is dead Christ wants them to think of the PERSON as though THEY sleep! AS we see in John 11 as Paul stated in 1Thees 4 and in 1Cor 15 and in 1Cor 11.

This could not be any more obvious. What is not so "obvious" is why people get upset to find other Christians believing this text exactly as Christ states it! Using the same terms "LAZARUS SLEEPS - I go that I may wake HIM" the PERSON sleeps -- not "I go that I may wake IT" the decayed flesh.

It all makes perfect sense once you choose to believe the Bible over man-made-tradition.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[mman]

Bob,

The rich man and Lazarus unquestionably demonstrates the consciousness of man (both the evil and good) in the intermediate state (Lk. 16:19ff). While some may dismiss this account as a mere parable, the force of that argument escapes me. A parable is either something that did happen or could happen.

On the mountain of Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah appeared and spoke with Christ regarding his death in Jerusalem (Lk. 9:30-31). These Old Testament men certainly were not in a state of sleep.

On the cross, Jesus promised the one thief, “Today you will be with me in Paradise” (Lk. 23:43). The language demands association and consciousness later that day in the realm of the righteous dead. If not, of what value was the pledge?

Paul described the state of departing to be with the Lord as being “very far better” than earthly Christian fellowship (Phil. 1:23). Could one affirm that unconsciousness is “very far better” than the sweet communion among the children of God? Of what value would there be in desiring to “depart” to be “with Christ” if one was unconscious, and thus did not even know that he was “with Christ”?

 

[Claudia_T]

DHK,

Now why did you have to say that to me about Ellen White? What does that have to do with anything?

It seems like all of you just use that as a cheap shot, why would you do something like that?

The Bible verses say the dead are asleep in the graves, what does that have to do with Ellen White?

Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

I guess everybody now has to say "Ellen White" and "Cult" every time they get a chance to try and make Seventh Day Adventists look bad.

Oh well.

**Sigh**

 

[Claudia_T]

Bob,

I used to go to a Christian Voice Chat place and once in awhile I would
venture into the Jehovah’s Witnesses room just so that I could get an idea
of what doctrines they teach.

And anyway I remember that it seemed like they took the Sabbath message
and in its place they put the “You have to call God Jehovah” message.

Then they took the message about Michael the Archangel and they stuck
the thing in there saying Jesus was not God.

Then they took the state of the dead message and added something weird
to that as well, except I cant recall what it is though.


Then they took the Eternal Torment message and copied what we teach
but added something strange to that as well.

It just seemed like they copied some of our stuff and then twisted it
around into something else.

I still don’t really understand what they are all about but I remember that
when I posted our actual message about Michael the Archangel they
banned me from their room. It was pretty weird actually, I was trying
to be nice to them and give them some supporting bible verses for the
Michael the Archangel doctrine but they got really really angry at me
when I posted the stuff about the deity of Christ.

Im not really sure if they just are people who tried to do a spin-off
of our messages and just really distorted everything or what.

But they don’t REALLY teach just what we do on the state of the
dead though, I don’t think.


Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

Can anybody actually explain to me why people seem to think the Seventh Day Adventists are the same as the Jehovah's Witnesses?

And why do they seem to mix us in with the Mormons as well?

I never could really understand that.

Because like don the Baptists have lots of stuff in common with other protestant churches and the Methodists have lots in common with other protestant churches, etc??

Claudia