Overfilling potholes

[37818]

The passage in English does not say Adam will die on that day.

It does not say it in the way you think it should. They did die a type of death on that day. The Serpent murdered them by lying to Eve ". . . Ye shall not surely die: . . ."

 

[JonC]

Are you saying that Adam and Eve were created spiritually dead????

I am saying Adam and Eve were created flesh, not spirit (to use a Biblical category).

The easiest way I can explain my view is to say Adam was created a living soul, created man, like us.

To help me understand your view, are you saying Adam was created spirit and then died spiritually?

 

[KenH]

I am saying Adam and Eve were created flesh, not spirit (to use a Biblical category).

The easiest way I can explain my view is to say Adam was created a living soul, created man, like us.

To help me understand your view, are you saying Adam was created spirit and then died spiritually?

Are you saying that Adam and Eve were not born with souls, that their souls were added after they sinned????

 

[JonC]

It does not say it in the way you think it should. They did die a type of death on that day. The Serpent murdered them by lying to Eve ". . . Ye shall not surely die: . . ."

Scripture uses a double (everywhere else Scripture does this we interpret it as an emphatic). If we interpret the passage as we do throughout the Bible then the verse is saying that on the day Adam eats of the fruit death would be a certainty. An alternate interpretation is that death would begin (dying you shall die), but I think this a forced interpretation.

In the KJV the verse also does not indicate that death would occur on that day (Genesis 2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.)

Why do you change the verse to read "you shall die on that day"?

This is how the warning manifested itself when Adam sinned (per God):

Genesis 3:17–19 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;

Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.
18 “Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field;
19 By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”

 

[JonC]

Are you saying that Adam and Eve were not born with souls, that their souls were added after they sinned????

How is me saying '1 Corinthians 15:45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." saying Adam was NOT made a living soul?

No, that is not what I am saying at all.

I am saying when God created Adam He created Him flesh and blood (flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom of God) and God created Adam a living soul.

 

[37818]

Scripture uses a double (everywhere else Scripture does this we interpret it as an emphatic). If we interpret the passage as we do throughout the Bible then the verse is saying that on the day Adam eats of the fruit death would be a certainty. An alternate interpretation is that death would begin (dying you shall die), but I think this a forced interpretation.

In the KJV the verse also does not indicate that death would occur on that day (Genesis 2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.)

Why do you change the verse to read "you shall die on that day"?

This is how the warning manifested itself when Adam sinned (per God):

Genesis 3:17–19 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;

Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.
18 “Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field;
19 By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”

John 8:44, ". . . the Devil, . . . He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. . . ."

 

[JonC]

John 8:44, ". . . the Devil, . . . He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. . . ."

Yes, the Devil is a liar. He told Adam he wouldn't die if he ate the fruit. God told Adam he would return to dust. Satan lied to Adam.

 

[JonC]

To prevent hijacking this thread (although inevitable given the topic) I've started another to discuss why done add a doctrine of loosing spiritual life.

Did Adam die spiritually when he sinned?

 

[KenH]

How is me saying '1 Corinthians 15:45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." saying Adam was NOT made a living soul?

No, that is not what I am saying at all.

I am saying when God created Adam He created Him flesh and blood (flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom of God) and God created Adam a living soul.

I don't understand your position at all. It's like trying to read a book in a foreign language to me. Have a nice evening, @JonC.

 

[Van]

Often when studying scripture, we must "fill in the blank." Something is said where we must supply the scope of the statement. Our interpretive translation fills in potholes produced by ambiguity. For example, Jesus knows all. Is the intended scope, Jesus knows everything imaginable, or just Jesus know all of the things in view based on context?

When we expand the scope of the text, like overfilling potholes in a street, we create just another road hazard.

When we see "the things" of the Spirit, do we say all the things of the spirit, or "at least some of the things of the spirit?"

When we see "no one seeks after God," do we say no one "ever" seeks after God, or no one always seeks after God?"

When we see "do not allow the women to speak in church," do we say do not allow any women to ever speak in church, or do not allow disruptive women to speak in church?

The key to not overfilling the potholes is to ask, what is the minimum God is saying

 

[Van]

Legalism results in placing too much importance on too much insignificance.
Lawlessness results in placing too little importance on too much significance.

Those that overfill potholes expand scripture, and those who do not fill potholes take away from scripture.

But if we are able to discern what is the least that God is saying, then we can fill the pothole, the blank, the ambiguity as contextually intended.

 

[Van]

Total Spiritual Inability is an example of an overfilled pothole. Limited spiritual ability, able to understand spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel, but not spiritual solid food (meat) is the biblical doctrine of spiritual ability while dead in sins.

Soil #1, of Matthew 13, suffered from total spiritual inability, not due to the Fall, but due to the practice of sin. Soils #2, 3 and 4 of Matthew 13 suffered from Limited Spiritual Ability yet were able to understand and accept to varying degrees, the gospel of Christ.

 

[JonC]

I don't understand your position at all. It's like trying to read a book in a foreign language to me. Have a nice evening, @JonC.

I do not understand the difficulty. If you can elaborate I'll try to clarify.

To help, I did start a thread about this topic.

And to summarize, I do no believe the biblical text explaining what occurred when Adam sinned is lacking. I believe the account of God's words to Adam are accurate and complete. Adam would have to work the land and would return to the dust from which he was created.

 

[KenH]

I do not understand the difficulty. If you can elaborate I'll try to clarify.

That's okay. We can just go our separate ways on this subject. I have a lot on my plate the next few days(e.g., roof being replaced, lots of pro wrestling, including two pay-per-views) and really don't feel up to any long back-and-forths the rest of this week.

 

[MrW]

Based on what?

For example - Jesus knew the woman had the well had 5 ex husbands - unless he broke into the county records dept......

He grew in wisdom and favor. Also, at that time, He didn’t know when He would return. Only the Father knew.

See Philippians 2, also. He humbled Himself, the Word was made flesh, and He lived as a Spirit-filled (without measure) man, never ceasing to be God, yet voluntarily limited His knowledge.

 

[MrW]

Genesis 2:17 (NKJV)
“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

This verse presents a huge pothole. Adam did not physically die on the 24 hour day he ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

To escape this difficulty, several interpretations have been offered:

1) Adam died spiritually, being separated from God on the 24 hour day that he ate the forbidden fruit. The problem with this "fix" is Genesis 3:19 which imposes the future penalty of physical death.

2) God relented and chose not to impose physical death on the 24 hour day Adam ate the fruit. The problem with this "fix" is when God says "if you do this, I will do that" He only relents when God specifies a conditional, i.e "but if you do this other thing, I will relent.

3) God imposed a specific future event, the penalty of death by imposing mortality. So dying due to mortality, you will die and become dust. I like this one. Thus on the 24 hour day Adam sinned, Adam now being unholy was separated spiritually from our Holy God, and also on the 24 hour day Adam sinned, Adam became mortal so that dying he would die.

A day is as a thousand years with the LORD. Adam died at 932.

 

[MrW]

No one thinks they are sovereign.

 

[JonC]

That's okay. We can just go our separate ways on this subject. I have a lot on my plate the next few days(e.g., roof being replaced, lots of pro wrestling, including two pay-per-views) and really don't feel up to any long back-and-forths the rest of this week.

I had my roof replaced a few months ago. Still finding pieces of shingles in the yard.

 

[37818]

Scripture uses a double (everywhere else Scripture does this we interpret it as an emphatic). If we interpret the passage as we do throughout the Bible then the verse is saying that on the day Adam eats of the fruit death would be a certainty. An alternate interpretation is that death would begin (dying you shall die), but I think this a forced interpretation.

In the KJV the verse also does not indicate that death would occur on that day (Genesis 2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.)

Why do you change the verse to read "you shall die on that day"?

This is how the warning manifested itself when Adam sinned (per God):

Genesis 3:17–19 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;

Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.
18 “Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field;
19 By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”

It does not say it in the way you think it should. They did die a type of death on that day. The Serpent murdered them by lying to Eve ". . . Ye shall not surely die: . . ."

 

[AustinC]

The idea that God doesn't choose you until you display a faith that God considers righteous.