Overrun with catholics

[The Biblicist]

Then why do these Reformation based churches all reject Believers Baptism in favor of this sacramental stuff?

I had a Lutheran pastor fresh out of seminary tell me that the Sacrament of Infant Baptism is in fact "New Birth" ....that God provides the grace then. If Presbyterians, Anglicans, Methodists & Lutherans believe this are they not in fact walking lock step with Catholics? Then I would conclude that these folks (The Reformation Churches) have not broken away from scriptural faulty Catholic doctrine.....gee, the apostasy starts there from my reckoning.

You got it! Those who are true Christians in these sacramental institutions are so in spite of their doctrine not because of it. They are neither baptized or churches in the Biblical sense. They are not disciples of Christ in the Great Commission sense of that term. They are among those who have departed from "the faith" as a system of doctrine and practice.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I don't know about hard pressed as I was a member of a SBC church for many years. In fact, I help build a couple of SBC up in this area as well as up in Maine. And I still recieve the news paper for the SBC. I don't know why they still have me on their mailing list since I made a public departure. However, I still like to keep tabs on what's going on and keeping appraised of whats happening. Certainly there are fewer SBC churches and they have to fight with other denominations for membership. It seems like the fastest growing denomination in this area is the AOG churches or Charismatic knock offs.

Why do Catholics dominate this area? Well, it has to do with a lot of History for this area. Many German immigrants originally established themselves here which is why there are large numbers Catholics, Lutherans, Amish, and Mennonites in our area. Also Catholics resupplied (so to speak) when many Irish immigrants came over during the famine in Ireland in the late 1800's. Not long after the Irish came the Italians. So large number of Catholics immigrated to this country and settled in the North East. Down south settlements originally were English and Scots and Northern Irish all with Protestant backgrounds and not as many of the Germans, Irish, Italians (Catholics) moved south when these groups immigrated. Out West Catholics numbers are due to the Hispanics living in that area. Also I've noticed that those diocese where Catholic Bishops don't water down the Catholic faith with the Liberal movement that took hold in 1962 at the Vatican II council are able to maintain Catholic Membership because they properly instruct their layity. Dioceses that do not loose their members because they aren't being faithful to Jesus Christ and the consistent teaching of the Catholic Church. And in the North East of the US there is a mixture of both types of diocese.

Does that answer your question?

your speaking directly of Pennsylvania, where I was born & my folks are from, however I am speaking of Northern & central Jersey that was first populated by mostly Dutch Calvinists. I do however understand the influx of immigrants changing the dynamics. Funny though, most of my cousins, my brother & I all walked away from Catholicism because we could not find strict biblical adherence. Rather we found inconsistencies which led us to question things. Still I do not see a yearning on the part of Baptists to plant in these communities....probably due to their own comfort factor in the Southland.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You got it! Those who are true Christians in these sacramental institutions are so in spite of their doctrine not because of it. They are neither baptized or churches in the Biblical sense. They are not disciples of Christ in the Great Commission sense of that term. They are among those who have departed from "the faith" as a system of doctrine and practice.

Well & I think Ive told you this before....I am in a situation right now that I am literally surrounded by these types & other apostate churches (no orthodox Baptist churches unless you drive for an hour).

Therefore in an effort to find Christian fellowship I have begun going to a Lutheran Church. I will not join them & become a Lutheran (that would be turning my back on my faith) but I do desire the company of other Christians so I have been meeting with them on Sundays. They are also 8 Miles from my house.

I have asked a group of orthodox Baptists to help me start a church in the area but they have spurned me.

What do you think I should do?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

your speaking directly of Pennsylvania, where I was born & my folks are from, however I am speaking of Northern & central Jersey that was first populated by mostly Dutch Calvinists. I do however understand the influx of immigrants changing the dynamics. Funny though, most of my cousins, my brother & I all walked away from Catholicism because we could not find strict biblical adherence. Rather we found inconsistencies which led us to question things. Still I do not see a yearning on the part of Baptists to plant in these communities....probably due to their own comfort factor in the Southland.

Do you get the PennJersey Baptist Newspaper? Maybe not since its specified to south Jersey. But there is a conserted effort to bring about new churches in these areas. The Northeast is viewed as a place for missionary effort. I don't think you're being fair to the SBC in the area.

As far as Catholics not holding to biblical principles we'll have to agree to disagree. But I understand your view. I'm currently invloved in a conserted effort to "convert to Jesus" Catholic Parishoners who are Cultural Catholics but not in Fact Catholic. Ie Church goers who don't have faith. My goal is to bring them into a lasting personal relationship with Jesus. Which includes training in the faith, bible studies that aren't subjective, and so on and so forth.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Do you get the PennJersey Baptist Newspaper? Maybe not since its specified to south Jersey. But there is a conserted effort to bring about new churches in these areas. The Northeast is viewed as a place for missionary effort. I don't think you're being fair to the SBC in the area.

As far as Catholics not holding to biblical principles we'll have to agree to disagree. But I understand your view. I'm currently invloved in a conserted effort to "convert to Jesus" Catholic Parishoners who are Cultural Catholics but not in Fact Catholic. Ie Church goers who don't have faith. My goal is to bring them into a lasting personal relationship with Jesus. Which includes training in the faith, bible studies that aren't subjective, and so on and so forth.

Good luck with that! But its the Holy Spirit that is in fact going to do most of the work ....you will be the one to bring the scripture & the balance albiet mostly Catholic doctrine. It is in fact that way for all Human Kind....not just Catholics.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Good luck with that! But its the Holy Spirit that is in fact going to do most of the work

Abosolutely! I can't even come to Christ myself without the Holy Spirit. However, as believers we have a calling to spread the gospel and teach those things Jesus taught us.

....you will be the one to bring the scripture & the balance albiet mostly Catholic doctrine. It is in fact that way for all Human Kind....not just Catholics.

Well, not myself alone there are many Catholics who are faithful and we are about the same mission. BTW I don't hold to a dichotomization between actual doctrine (many things get labled catholic doctrine that is not) and scripture teaching. But again I understand that is something you and I will agree to disagree on.

 

[The Biblicist]

Well & I think Ive told you this before....I am in a situation right now that I am literally surrounded by these types & other apostate churches (no orthodox Baptist churches unless you drive for an hour).

Therefore in an effort to find Christian fellowship I have begun going to a Lutheran Church. I will not join them & become a Lutheran (that would be turning my back on my faith) but I do desire the company of other Christians so I have been meeting with them on Sundays. They are also 8 Miles from my house.

I have asked a group of orthodox Baptists to help me start a church in the area but they have spurned me.

What do you think I should do?

Ask the Lord to either make it possible for you to move to a place where you can be obedient to Him or ask Him to bring a missionary into your area but in the mean time do not further disobey His Word by meeting with those whom the scriptues forbid fellowship with in regard to the faith (2 Thes. 3:6; Rev. 18:4). When you disobey this you will eventually succumb to the frog in the pot effect. Separation is designed to preserve ability to continue in the faith as integration will eventually destroy that ability.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ask the Lord to either make it possible for you to move to a place where you can be obedient to Him or ask Him to bring a missionary into your area but in the mean time do not further disobey His Word by meeting with those whom the scriptues forbid fellowship with in regard to the faith (2 Thes. 3:6; Rev. 18:4). When you disobey this you will eventually succumb to the frog in the pot effect. Separation is designed to preserve ability to continue in the faith as integration will eventually destroy that ability.

I have already asked the Lord to bring a missionary & contrary to popular understanding, I am not integrating my beliefs....Ive told them I would not do that. Brother, it is taken me well over 53 years to come to know Christ & I am resolute not to compromise that in any way. Still it is frustrating that I am in a location that is sooo godless, people who have lost or do not know how to adore, nor heed the radical call to new life. No, I am not backsliding.... praise God for giving me that gift.

However, I cannot help but believe that the Lord has put me here to make a radical change to this particular area & is calling me to help build a church, one that is truly Christ centered. As of yet, it has not been revealed to me....or maybe it has. Maybe my mission is to meet those that have had the call to Christ but are so disheartened by crappy churches that they have given up hope of ever finding a true believing church. That would require someone to go out & discern that. Is it not the call of our lord to go and make disciples of all nations & teach them everything I have commanded you? (Matt 28: 16-20.

 

[The Biblicist]

I have already asked the Lord to bring a missionary & contrary to popular understanding, I am not integrating my beliefs....Ive told them I would not do that.

Integrating with those who oppose your beliefs will have its effects given sufficeint time if that is your source of public worship and fellowship. If that were not true then there would be no command to separate from such brethren (2 Thes. 3:6).

However, I cannot help but believe that the Lord has put me here to make a radical change to this particular area & is calling me to help build a church, one that is truly Christ centered. As of yet, it has not been revealed to me....or maybe it has.

God is not the author of confusion. He does not lead contrary to His own revealed will found in God's Word. The authorization for the constitution of churches is found in the third aspect of the Great Comission and it has its authorized administratration in the same administrator that preaches the true gospel and admnisters baptism. There are no se-baptism any more than se-churches (self-administration) any more than there is se-ordination.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Integrating with those who oppose your beliefs will have its effects given sufficeint time if that is your source of public worship and fellowship. If that were not true then there would be no command to separate from such brethren (2 Thes. 3:6).




God is not the author of confusion. He does not lead contrary to His own revealed will found in God's Word. The authorization for the constitution of churches is found in the third aspect of the Great Comission and it has its authorized administratration in the same administrator that preaches the true gospel and admnisters baptism. There are no se-baptism any more than se-churches (self-administration) any more than there is se-ordination.

What constitutes "True Church" then?

 

[The Biblicist]

What constitutes "True Church" then?

One that makes "disciples of Christ" in three specified areas:

1. Going with the SAME gospel Christ preached and commissioned.

2. Administering the SAME baptism Christ submitted to an administered to others through his ordained representatives (Jn. 4:1-2; Lk. 7:29-30).

3. Teaching the SAME faith and order or "the faith once delivered"

No church knows all truth or is a perfect church. However, there are essentials that must be there.

There are essentials that one must embrace and profess to be recognized as a true Christian in contrast to a false professor. There are essentials that true christians must embrace and recognize to be a true church in contrast to those who depart into error (Acts 20:29-31).

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

One that makes "disciples of Christ" in three specified areas:

1. Going with the SAME gospel Christ preached and commissioned.

2. Administering the SAME baptism Christ submitted to an administered to others through his ordained representatives (Jn. 4:1-2; Lk. 7:29-30).

3. Teaching the SAME faith and order or "the faith once delivered"

No church knows all truth or is a perfect church. However, there are essentials that must be there.

There are essentials that one must embrace and profess to be recognized as a true Christian in contrast to a false professor. There are essentials that true christians must embrace and recognize to be a true church in contrast to those who depart into error (Acts 20:29-31).

OK, I have a Pastor/Mentor who runs a real orthodox Baptist Church in Kentucky. I speak to him weekly either via the phone and/or email. My wife & I also meet every Sunday to bible study & discussion....in fact I speak to her daily about the lord. Is that sufficient?

 

[The Biblicist]

OK, I have a Pastor/Mentor who runs a real orthodox Baptist Church in Kentucky. I speak to him weekly either via the phone and/or email. My wife & I also meet every Sunday to bible study & discussion....in fact I speak to her daily about the lord. Is that sufficient?

Well, do you consider that better than meeting with a sacramental congregation whose very doctrine of soteriology repudiates one of the essentials of the Great Commission?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well, do you consider that better than meeting with a sacramental congregation whose very doctrine of soteriology repudiates one of the essentials of the Great Commission?

Yes but I do like the people & I like the theological discussions with these guys. They are curious about my Baptist Beliefs & are open to dialog. They are not changing me however I am changing them....probably shocking them a bit with my candor. Perhaps its intellectual stimulation on both our parts, but I would not even venturer to move in their direction.....its backward & apostate. The Holy Spirit has done his work well on this sinner if you must know the truth.And he is continuing to this day.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Lets say for arguments sake that I spend a season with the Lutherans & through conversation & reviewing what scripture really says, the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to a Lutheran brother or two. Would I not have the makings of a church? Then we go out & sit with other apostate groups in the area....and so on & so forth.

I am only showing up & showing the truth in scripture. It is the HS doing the real work through his grace & illumination.

 

[billwald]

Why has the Holy Spirit given contradictory information to various denominations?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Why has the Holy Spirit given contradictory information to various denominations?

He isnt...some though are in open rebellion or perhaps the HS doesnt provide the grace but they make it up as they go along, or it is interpolated incorrectly......these are just speculations on my part & my own humanistic opinions.

The only thing we must all agree to as Christians (of any stripe) is that Christ promises to save all who come to Him in faith. Any disagreement there is definite heresy.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Let me ask you though Bill....as a Reformed Christian, what doctrines do you absolutely believe are necessary to your own personal understanding of scripture...IE, what is central to your faith?

 

[webdog]

The only authorized founder of the New Testament church is Christ and the Great Commission is given to the New Testamet church to reproduce AFTER ITS OWN KIND until Jesus comes again. New Testament churches do not refer to "founders" but to the church that authorized their constitution through ordained representatives.

Based on this, any name on a church is wrong as the first church had no sign.

 

[The Biblicist]

Based on this, any name on a church is wrong as the first church had no sign.

Without getting involved in trading insults, I do not see the logic of your statement. No doubt you believe your statement is a logical response to our discussion but I clearly do not see it.

We are not discussing what name is proper, or even if a name is necessary. We have been discussing why those who claim to be Baptist in faith and practice would be ashamed of the name "Baptist." No other denomination is ashamed of their name or try to hide their name.

My comments on Matthew 28:19-20 simply provided some essential characteristics that should characterize any group that claims to be a New Testament congregation.