Overrun with catholics

[webdog]

Without getting involved in trading insults, I do not see the logic of your statement. No doubt you believe your statement is a logical response to our discussion but I clearly do not see it.

We are not discussing what name is proper, or even if a name is necessary. We have been discussing why those who claim to be Baptist in faith and practice would be ashamed of the name "Baptist." No other denomination is ashamed of their name or try to hide their name.

My comments on Matthew 28:19-20 simply provided some essential characteristics that should characterize any group that claims to be a New Testament congregation.

In true Biblicist fashion, you start by insulting your opponent even after the disingenuous disclaimer. Biden clone.

You beg the question by stating the reason for the name not having Baptist in the title is due to shame. You were given other reasons. Point being...who cares what we want to label our local church building. I was using YOUR logic the first church (you know...the one we are all supposed to model) had no name, nor was it ever a point of contention in Scripture. Purely legalism to make it an issue now.

 

[The Biblicist]

In true Biblicist fashion, you start by insulting your opponent even after the disingenuous disclaimer. Biden clone.

Previous experience with you is the cause of my genuine disclaimer. Saying I do not see the logic of your conclusion while admitting that you apparently can see the logic is not an insult. However, as past experience as taught me, you can find an insult in anything. So much for attempting to avoid it.

Again, the subject was removal of the name "Baptist" simply to avoid offending people. Once you start playing that game there is no end of it.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Why has the Holy Spirit given contradictory information to various denominations?

We all see through a glass, darkly. No one and no denomination has perfectly clear spiritual vision and discernment.

 

[The Biblicist]

We all see through a glass, darkly. No one and no denomination has perfectly clear spiritual vision and discernment.

There is a better and more Biblical answer. There is no Christian that knows all truth and there are no churches that know all truth. However, in order to be recongized as a Christian there are some essentials one must know and must profess to be distinguished from false or apostate Christians.

Likewise, in order for a group of persons to be recognized as a New Testament congregation in contrast to cultic or apostate congregation there must be some essentials they must known and profess.

Those essentials fall into three easy clear categories:

1. They must not deny anything the Bible explicitly demands to be essential.

2. They must embrace those things that are essential to distinguish New Testament Christianity from other world religions and predicted apostate Christianity.

3. They must embrace those things that are essential for the continued existence of Christianity and truth (e.g. The Great Commission essentials; The Scriptures as final authority for faith and practice; The New Testament church and its ordinances)

a. The Scriptures are "the word of truth"
b. The New Testament church is "the pillar and ground of the truth"
c. The Great Commission is the age long reproductive cycle of like faith and order or "the faith once delivered"

 

[Yeshua1]

One that makes "disciples of Christ" in three specified areas:

1. Going with the SAME gospel Christ preached and commissioned.

2. Administering the SAME baptism Christ submitted to an administered to others through his ordained representatives (Jn. 4:1-2; Lk. 7:29-30).

3. Teaching the SAME faith and order or "the faith once delivered"

No church knows all truth or is a perfect church. However, there are essentials that must be there.

There are essentials that one must embrace and profess to be recognized as a true Christian in contrast to a false professor. There are essentials that true christians must embrace and recognize to be a true church in contrast to those who depart into error (Acts 20:29-31).

Are you stating here that those such as calvin/Luthor and other staewarts of the reformed tradition were either not saved, or else their beliefs were not scriptural?

For those holding to reformed theolgy in the church are teaching same gospel as regarding salvation, its just they disagree with us on seconday issues such as timing of Second coming and water Baptism!

For IF one has the right salvation message, isn't THAT what enables them to be seen as being a "true church of Christ?"

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Are you stating here that those such as calvin/Luthor and other staewarts of the reformed tradition were either not saved, or else their beliefs were not scriptural?

For those holding to reformed theolgy in the church are teaching same gospel as regarding salvation, its just they disagree with us on seconday issues such as timing of Second coming and water Baptism!

For IF one has the right salvation message, isn't THAT what enables them to be seen as being a "true church of Christ?"

I will tell you what Yeshua, when I meet with this Lutheran Pastor, he is going to take me thru his doctrinal beliefs which I have already studied to some degree. Some of them mirror my old RC doctrinal training & my old Presbyterian training. If you like for an exercise, try to Google the Westminster Confessions of Faith written by the Reformers & try to go thru it...particularly the Baptism & sacrament parts. Then go to the 1689 London Baptist Confessions of Faith & compare their sections on Baptism & ordinances. Both the Baptist & the Presbyterians will justify their positions.... but who do you believe? More importantly, who does the Holy Spirit tell you to believe? That every person has to discern. My flag is firmly planted......but its a good exercise to strengthen your knowledge.

What I will do after my meeting is come back & discuss the Lutheran position & I am certain we will get some lively discussion from it. What I dont want to do is claim these people raving heretics. These churches however downplay spiritual regeneration (the Born Again experience) by claiming it is all done at the time of infant baptism....therefore they have no belief in OSAS. Therefore we go back to the old RC Justification by Works package. Yeshua, you yourself have indicated that loosing your faith theology is engendered in the Arminian belief system so ....

And I can see how the Biblicist would express caution, because if someone is not solid in their orthodox beliefs, this little exploration of mine could potentially confound ones beliefs. But remember I believe in OSAS & I am a Regenerated Christian so I cannot be influenced. But I do agree with the Biblicist that they are not on the correct scriptural path & most involved in those types of Christians are in fact carnal & at worst "non-believers." Is it not our obligation to help them out of darkness & into the light? I believe so.

 

[Yeshua1]

I will tell you what Yeshua, when I meet with this Lutheran Pastor, he is going to take me thru his doctrinal beliefs which I have already studied to some degree. Some of them mirror my old RC doctrinal training & my old Presbyterian training. If you like for an exercise, try to Google the Westminster Confessions of Faith written by the Reformers & try to go thru it...particularly the Baptism & sacrament parts. Then go to the 1689 London Baptist Confessions of Faith & compare their sections on Baptism & ordinances. Both the Baptist & the Presbyterians will justify their positions.... but who do you believe? More importantly, who does the Holy Spirit tell you to believe? That every person has to discern. My flag is firmly planted......but its a good exercise to strengthen your knowledge.

What I will do after my meeting is come back & discuss the Lutheran position & I am certain we will get some lively discussion from it. What I dont want to do is claim these people raving heretics. These churches however downplay spiritual regeneration (the Born Again experience) by claiming it is all done at the time of infant baptism....therefore they have no belief in OSAS. Therefore we go back to the old RC Justification by Works package. Yeshua, you yourself have indicated that loosing your faith theology is engendered in the Arminian belief system so ....

And I can see how the Biblicist would express caution, because if someone is not solid in their orthodox beliefs, this little exploration of mine could potentially confound ones beliefs. But remember I believe in OSAS & I am a Regenerated Christian so I cannot be influenced. But I do agree with the Biblicist that they are not on the correct scriptural path & most involved in those types of Christians are in fact carnal & at worst "non-believers." Is it not our obligation to help them out of darkness & into the light? I believe so.

Wouldn't you agree with me though here that the reformed and the baptists each are part of the same Body, and they have soliod teachings/doctrines, just wrong in some sreas?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Wouldn't you agree with me though here that the reformed and the baptists each are part of the same Body, and they have soliod teachings/doctrines, just wrong in some areas?

Nope, I would not & it depends on the type of baptist your referring to......Doctrine of Grace Baptists or Non-Calvinistic or Arminian.

Again ....examine the Baptinism doctrines & the ordinances v sacraments.

 

[billwald]

>>Originally Posted by Michael Wrenn
>>We all see through a glass, darkly. No one and no denomination has perfectly clear spiritual vision and discernment.


>There is a better and more Biblical answer. There is no Christian that knows all truth and there are no churches that know all truth. However, in order to be recongized as a Christian there are some essentials one must know and must profess to be distinguished from false or apostate Christians.

THAT is the exact historical purpose of the Ecumenical Creeds and all orthodox Christians testify to their truth!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Michael Wrenn]

>>Originally Posted by Michael Wrenn
>>We all see through a glass, darkly. No one and no denomination has perfectly clear spiritual vision and discernment.


>There is a better and more Biblical answer. There is no Christian that knows all truth and there are no churches that know all truth. However, in order to be recongized as a Christian there are some essentials one must know and must profess to be distinguished from false or apostate Christians.

THAT is the exact historical purpose of the Ecumenical Creeds and all orthodox Christians testify to their truth!!!!!!!!!!!!

Exactly right!

 

[DHK]

We all see through a glass, darkly. No one and no denomination has perfectly clear spiritual vision and discernment.

I have ALL the truth. It is called the Word of God, the Bible.
I don't see through a glass darkly, but quite clearly.
My spiritual vision is quite clear.

Those who saw through a glass darkly (1Cor.9ff), were NT, first century Christians, who did not have the entire revelation of God. They had to depend on the revelatory gifts mentioned in 1Cor.13:8. Paul hoped that that complete revelation would come in his lifetime. Thus he writes,

1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
and
1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

But then...he hoped that the NT would have been completed in his time. But how could he know? He couldn't see that far into the future. He knew in part (the OT) and some of the inspired epistles he wrote, perhaps James and Matthew which were written very early (ca. 50 A.D.). But we don't know if they were available to him.

When the perfect (completed) revelation would come, he would look into it as a mirror. And as a mirror shines forth our reflection, he would know as he is known. He would see himself as he is, a wretched sinner saved by the grace of God.

I see clearly. I have all the truth I need. In fact I have all the truth that pertains to doctrine and faith. It is called the Word of God. Who would dare to say that I don't.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

>>Originally Posted by Michael Wrenn
>>We all see through a glass, darkly. No one and no denomination has perfectly clear spiritual vision and discernment.


>There is a better and more Biblical answer. There is no Christian that knows all truth and there are no churches that know all truth. However, in order to be recongized as a Christian there are some essentials one must know and must profess to be distinguished from false or apostate Christians.

THAT is the exact historical purpose of the Ecumenical Creeds and all orthodox Christians testify to their truth!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is a big difference in mouthing creeds & falling in love with God-- they are two different journeys. I have lived through people believing that they have to save their souls by gathering sacraments, holy works & ascetical practices--all affirming the false self & a false belief system. Now we have got these big Christian egos walking around who are very self-protective, satisfied & conservative in the wrong way.

Normally they would not converse with anyone about their beliefs because they are walking the steps of the sacraments because that is how they have been taught to save their souls....but do you find that operating system in any creed? I do not think so.

 

[billwald]

Better to mouth words that have been vetted for 1700 years than off the cuff words of dubious meaning.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I have ALL the truth. It is called the Word of God, the Bible.
I don't see through a glass darkly, but quite clearly.
My spiritual vision is quite clear.

Those who saw through a glass darkly (1Cor.9ff), were NT, first century Christians, who did not have the entire revelation of God. They had to depend on the revelatory gifts mentioned in 1Cor.13:8. Paul hoped that that complete revelation would come in his lifetime. Thus he writes,

1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
and
1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

But then...he hoped that the NT would have been completed in his time. But how could he know? He couldn't see that far into the future. He knew in part (the OT) and some of the inspired epistles he wrote, perhaps James and Matthew which were written very early (ca. 50 A.D.). But we don't know if they were available to him.

When the perfect (completed) revelation would come, he would look into it as a mirror. And as a mirror shines forth our reflection, he would know as he is known. He would see himself as he is, a wretched sinner saved by the grace of God.

I see clearly. I have all the truth I need. In fact I have all the truth that pertains to doctrine and faith. It is called the Word of God. Who would dare to say that I don't.

But you don't discern it perfectly or without error.... or do you claim infallibility and see yourself as a Protestant pope?

 

[DHK]

But you don't discern it perfectly or without error.... or do you claim infallibility and see yourself as a Protestant pope?

Michael don't accuse me of being wrong.
I was only wrong once in my life, and that was when I thought I made a mistake but didn't. :smilewinkgrin:
You do know that I reached entire sanctification very early in my life, don't you? Therefore I cannot henceforth and hereon in be wrong on anything. (Wasn't it you that believed in the eradication of the sin nature, or was that another poster?)

Seriously, If I stood behind the pulpit and could not preach what I believed as truth, God's truth from God's Word, I would quit the ministry.
I am not going to preach "the truth" one Sunday, and the next Sunday come back and say: "Sorry but last Sunday's sermon was a lie from the devil. He deceived me like he deceived Eve. Just forget about last Sunday's sermon."

I know what I believe, and why I believe it.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Michael don't accuse me of being wrong.
I was only wrong once in my life, and that was when I thought I made a mistake but didn't. :smilewinkgrin:


Come on, now; you got that from Howard Cosell.


You do know that I reached entire sanctification very early in my life, don't you? Therefore I cannot henceforth and hereon in be wrong on anything. (Wasn't it you that believed in the eradication of the sin nature, or was that another poster?)


That was not me.


Seriously, If I stood behind the pulpit and could not preach what I believed as truth, God's truth from God's Word, I would quit the ministry.
I am not going to preach "the truth" one Sunday, and the next Sunday come back and say: "Sorry but last Sunday's sermon was a lie from the devil. He deceived me like he deceived Eve. Just forget about last Sunday's sermon."

I know what I believe, and why I believe it.

I do, too, but I still know I could be wrong.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Better to mouth words that have been vetted for 1700 years than off the cuff words of dubious meaning.

WRONG....but you will soon discover that yourself.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Michael don't accuse me of being wrong.
I was only wrong once in my life, and that was when I thought I made a mistake but didn't. :smilewinkgrin:
You do know that I reached entire sanctification very early in my life, don't you? Therefore I cannot henceforth and hereon in be wrong on anything. (Wasn't it you that believed in the eradication of the sin nature, or was that another poster?)

Seriously, If I stood behind the pulpit and could not preach what I believed as truth, God's truth from God's Word, I would quit the ministry.
I am not going to preach "the truth" one Sunday, and the next Sunday come back and say: "Sorry but last Sunday's sermon was a lie from the devil. He deceived me like he deceived Eve. Just forget about last Sunday's sermon."

I know what I believe, and why I believe it.

Im with you brother :thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

But you don't discern it perfectly or without error.... or do you claim infallibility and see yourself as a Protestant pope?

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound....that saved a wrench like me. I once was lost, but now Im found, Blind but now I see.

 

[The Biblicist]

I do, too, but I still know I could be wrong.

However, the Word is never wrong or incomplete. However, at the time Paul penned his words the Word was incomplete. The "now" refers to the apostolic age and "then" refers to the time when the Word would be provided in a completed form by the apostles as predicted in Isaiah 8:16-18.

Now (apostolic age pre-completion of New Testament) we (Christians) have only the Old Testament Scriptures and thus an UNCLEAR and IMMATURE scripture of New Covenant doctrine and practice, however, THEN (post-completion of New Testament scripture) we shall see ourselves (New Testament Christianity) as we truly are.

Now (apostolic age pre-completion of New Testament) we have only OLD TESTAMENT PRINCIPLES to define New Testament mature (faith, hope and love) use of spriitual gifts and the greatest of these is Love and so that is what I (Paul) am going to use to define the MATURE use of spiritual gifts in chapters 13-14. Furthermore, what I am saying is the commandments of God (1 Cor. 14:37) in keeping with Old Testament law - 1 Cor. 14:34-36