Palm Sunday myth.

[rlvaughn]

As for me and my house, I am all in for the traditional view. You are not going to destroy my faith by pointing out numerical difficulties within God's inspired word.

No one is trying to destroy your faith. If your faith won't stand up to either you or I being wrong about the exact day of the week Jesus died, well, I don't know what to say. No one who wrote the Bible under inspiration is wrong! Either of us might be wrong in our understanding of it.

I am not confused about what I think the Bible says, but I was confused in trying to understand what you are saying you believe. Rather than a straightforward answer, you mostly asked a bunch of questions. If you don't want to clarify, I'll just leave it at that.

 

[rlvaughn]

The word "sabbath" in the Koine Greek of Matthew 28:1 is PLURAL...
Interesting?

One thing I find interesting is whether we might be missing a rule of grammar or something in looking at that plural? Despite the word being plural, very few English translations translate it as a plural. As best I could tell, neither do Luther, Louis Segund, or Reina Valera.

 

[HankD]

One thing I find interesting is whether we might be missing a rule of grammar or something in looking at that plural? Despite the word being plural, very few English translations translate it as a plural. As best I could tell, neither do Luther, Louis Segund, or Reina Valera.

To be forthright you may be correct as the clause may mean "towards the end of the week" but its not conclusive.

See Acts 20:7.

 

[Van]

No one is trying to destroy your faith. If your faith won't stand up to either you or I being wrong about the exact day of the week Jesus died, well, I don't know what to say. No one who wrote the Bible under inspiration is wrong! Either of us might be wrong in our understanding of it.

I am not confused about what I think the Bible says, but I was confused in trying to understand what you are saying you believe. Rather than a straightforward answer, you mostly asked a bunch of questions. If you don't want to clarify, I'll just leave it at that.

You asked me questions which I answered, I asked you questions and you did not answer. What ever happened to do unto others as you would have them do unto you?

Are you serious? This is Easter week and you are quibbling about the difference between Mark and John. It is like you are saying, I did not know the gun was loaded.

Jesus died on Friday, Mark 15:42. The issue is did some Jews celebrate Passover on Thursday and others on Saturday. I think the solution is yes!

 

[rlvaughn]

To be forthright you may be correct as the clause may mean "towards the end of the week" but its not conclusive.
See Acts 20:7.

This is an area I try to be careful not to read too much into something that might be going over my head! Nevertheless, regardless of one's position on the specific day of crucifixion, it seems to me the week would have included two days "Sabbath" -- the regular weekly Sabbath, and the "Sabbath" of the first day of unleavened bread, in which no work could be done. Even if they fell on the same day, it would be "sort of" two days. (Here I am speaking more in the abstract that directly to the day of the crucifixion discussion going on.)

 

[Van]

In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover. Lev 23:5
Methinks that is one day.
It also is not a day of holy convocation nor day of rest. Sabbath day.

I thought that if the Passover day fell on Saturday, it was called a "high Sabbath." (John 19:31)

 

[HankD]

I thought that if the Passover day fell on Saturday, it was called a "high Sabbath." (John 19:31)

True.

 

[rlvaughn]

You asked me questions which I answered, I asked you questions and you did not answer. What ever happened to do unto others as you would have them do unto you?

I took your questions as mostly rhetorical, but since you are not satisfied I will look over them and answer.

Are you serious? This is Easter week and you are quibbling about the difference between Mark and John. It is like you are saying, I did not know the gun was loaded.

Huh!?

Were Mark and John confused about Christ dying on Preparation day, the day before the weekly Sabbath? How does Mark 15:42 read to you?

First one already answered: "No one who wrote the Bible under inspiration is wrong!" I expect I read Mark 15:42 the same way you do, but where we disagree is on the meaning of it within the total harmonization of the four gospels. I understand it as the "high day" sabbath of the first day of unleavened bread (John 19:31; Exodus 12:16; Leviticus 23:6-7; Numbers 28:17-18) and not the weekly sabbath. Where do you place the first day of unleavened bread?

Can a person refer to the Passover as a several day event and include the day of preparation?

Apparently they can. I think that is what you are doing, isn't it? The important question is not whether "a person" can, but whether or not the biblical writers do, and, if so, when. I think there may be some times when "the passover" could refer generally to the entire week of events from the 14th of Nisan to the end of the feast of unleavened bread, but that does not negate the fact that there was a day that is THE passover.

Was John wrong and his inspired writings wrong? Was Mark wrong and his inspired writings wrong? Or would I be "confused" to say we do not know how many "Passovers" occurred the unknown year Christ died, or whether the one or more were celebrated by different groups on different days.

First two already answered: "No one who wrote the Bible under inspiration is wrong!" Third one, I don't know whether you are confused or not, but there is only one biblically instituted time of the Passover -- In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord’s passover (Leviticus 23:5 ) -- whether or not different groups were celebrating it on different days. But you initially said the Passover was on Saturday.

 

[rlvaughn]

I thought that if the Passover day fell on Saturday, it was called a "high Sabbath." (John 19:31)

True.

From Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary, who accepts the Friday crucifixion:

on the sabbath day, for that sabbath day was an high day—or "great" day—the first day of unleavened bread, and, as concurring with an ordinary sabbath, the most solemn season of the ecclesiastical year. Hence their peculiar jealousy lest the law should be infringed.

IOW, not "an high day" because of the Passover proper, but because it was the first day of unleavened bread, which was also a type of sabbath in that no work was done. Not that I agree with JFB, but to point out a different view from those who hold the "traditional" position than has generally been asserted here. They are far from alone in commentaries who relate this weekly sabbath to coinciding with the the first day of unleavened bread rather than the passover (which day in itself did not prohibit normal work).

 

[37818]

And when the sabbath (Singular) was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. Mark 16:1

And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath (Singular) day according to the commandment. Luke 23:55,56

Ummmm!

Here is how I understand the evidence. Jesus died on the 15th. Joseph had to wait for that sabbath, the 15th, to have ended (Mark 15:42) to take the body of Jesus. The women looked and prepared prepared spices. All this was done on the preperation day before the weekly Sabbath the women rested on Luke 23:55-56. After the Sabbaths Matthew 28:1 refers to both the 15th on which Christ was crucified and the weekly Sabbath that followed. Mark 14:12 was the 14th per Exodus 12:18.

 

[HankD]

No matter what one finds in theology and/or its historical and cultural background opposing views seem to abound.

Talmudic decisions were no different.The mitzvouth for Passover and Yom Kippur generally trumped the Sabbath rest.
No doubt those conflicts had all been ironed out by Jesus day.

If indeed Preparation Day fell on a sabbath in the year that the Lord was crucified it was indeed a special Sabbath in which work related to the Passover was allowed.

 

[percho]

I thought that if the Passover day fell on Saturday, it was called a "high Sabbath." (John 19:31)

I think High Sabbaths were Sabbaths other than weekly Sabbaths

15th day of first month
21st day of first month
50th day after weekly Sabbath following Passover
1st day of seventh month
10th day of seventh month
15th day of seventh month
23rd day of seventh month, the day after the 7 days of offering 70 bulls

7 high Sabbaths

 

[Van]

It always gets a little confusing but I think we have a consensus, Jesus entered Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, died on the following Friday, and arose around sun up on Sunday. Did Jesus and his disciples celebrate "Passover" dinner on Thursday, like Mark indicates? Not sure if anyone has agreed with that aspect of the referenced passages. Did many Jews in Jerusalem celebrate "Passover" on the Saturday after Christ died? Not sure if anyone has agreed with that aspect of the referenced verses.

Has the traditional view been questioned, without offering an alternate from scripture? IMHO, yes.

 

[percho]

Here is how I understand the evidence. Jesus died on the 15th. Joseph had to wait for that sabbath, the 15th, to have ended (Mark 15:42) to take the body of Jesus. The women looked and prepared prepared spices. All this was done on the preperation day before the weekly Sabbath the women rested on Luke 23:55-56. After the Sabbaths Matthew 28:1 refers to both the 15th on which Christ was crucified and the weekly Sabbath that followed. Mark 14:12 was the 14th per Exodus 12:18.

Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house: And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. Ex 12:3,6

Young's Literal Translation
'And it hath become a charge to you, until the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole assembly of the company of Israel have slaughtered it between the evenings;

The Passover was on the 14th

 

[Van]

And what day of the week did the 14th fall on in AD 29-34? How do we know what the days and dates were before the 4th Century in Jerusalem? Speculation?

 

[robycop3]

I believe everything with Jesus' "passion" all occurred on the 14th of Nisan. It began Wednesday at sunset; after sunset the paschal lambs were eaten. Later that evening/night, Jesus was busted, taken before Caiaphas, Pilate, Herod, Paiate again, dcrucified the nest morn, (still Wednesday, the 14th) & died before sunset, still on the 14th, & was entombed before sunset. Then, He arose Saturday just before sunset, keeping with His prophecy He would arise "on the 3rd day".

The Wednesday of the "passion" was also the Preparation Day for the "High Sabbath", not the regular weekly Saturday Sabbath. Remember, the same rules for the Sabbath applied to High Sabbaths as well.

There was simply no way Jesus rode into town on a Sunday. Again, it's observed because the RCC started it while it was the predominant church in Europe, with political power as well, and they kept that tradition, with many nations such as Poland still being predominately Catholic.

Anyone wants to observe it, fine; I couldn't care less. I don't observe it myself. (Nor any of the other RCC stuff associated with the season.)

BTW, the actual anniversary this year, of Jesus' resurrection, falls on Monday, Apr. 22, which happens to be my birthday.

 

[loDebar]

And what day of the week did the 14th fall on in AD 29-34? How do we know what the days and dates were before the 4th Century in Jerusalem? Speculation?

The Hebrew calendar can be used.

 

[loDebar]

I believe everything with Jesus' "passion" all occurred on the 14th of Nisan. It began Wednesday at sunset; after sunset the paschal lambs were eaten. Later that evening/night, Jesus was busted, taken before Caiaphas, Pilate, Herod, Paiate again, dcrucified the nest morn, (still Wednesday, the 14th) & died before sunset, still on the 14th, & was entombed before sunset. Then, He arose Saturday just before sunset, keeping with His prophecy He would arise "on the 3rd day".

The Wednesday of the "passion" was also the Preparation Day for the "High Sabbath", not the regular weekly Saturday Sabbath. Remember, the same rules for the Sabbath applied to High Sabbaths as well.

There was simply no way Jesus rode into town on a Sunday. Again, it's observed because the RCC started it while it was the predominant church in Europe, with political power as well, and they kept that tradition, with many nations such as Poland still being predominately Catholic.

Anyone wants to observe it, fine; I couldn't care less. I don't observe it myself. (Nor any of the other RCC stuff associated with the season.)

BTW, the actual anniversary this year, of Jesus' resurrection, falls on Monday, Apr. 22, which happens to be my birthday.

He rode on April 11 Sunday

 

[37818]

Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house: And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. Ex 12:3,6

Young's Literal Translation
'And it hath become a charge to you, until the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole assembly of the company of Israel have slaughtered it between the evenings;

The Passover was on the 14th

Yes, the Passover lamb was killed on that day, Mark 14:12. That was done before Jesus met with His disciples that following evening, Mark 14:17. Christ Himself our Passover lamb, being our sin offering on the 15th (Numbers 28:16-24). Keep in mind Hebrews 10:1. All the sacrifies of the Law were prefigures of Christ.

 

[37818]

And what day of the week did the 14th fall on in AD 29-34? How do we know what the days and dates were before the 4th Century in Jerusalem? Speculation?

You can use this tool: Calendar Converter