Parable of the Talents

[Deacon]

But let's see what the third slave received. He received a hasrh rebuke with "You wicked, lazy slave"

So not only do we see that the wicked slave received a harsh rebuke, and not only did he lose his opportunity to be put in charge over something, but he actually lost what he possessed. Then he was thrown out into outer darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So again here is overwhelming evidence that there are indeed faithful and unfaithful Christians and that there will be a separation when we stand before our Judge.

I've alway wondered if a modern rendition would have a fourth servant who invested in the stock market and lost most of the money in a downturned market.
What would the masters' response have been?
'Oh you wicked, lazy slave, you should have invested in Microsoft' :laugh:

Rob

 

[J. Jump]

Everything I highlighted is false doctrine

And you have done what most everyone does when dealing with these issues. You have said this is false, but given no Scriptural evidence to the contrary.

Show me with Scripture where it says that the sacrificial system was no longer valid. It wasn't their actually doing it, it was the faith before they did it that saved them.

Just like it was the faith in Exodus 12 that saved them.

So at what point in Scripture did God says this is no longer a valid faith you have to believe in something else?

How do you counter with Scripture that they were being delivered a spiritual message that is incapable of being comprehended by a spiritually dead person.

To be seperated from God is to be eternally punished in the Lake of Fire... not just be outside the Kingdom.

That's just plainly not what Scripture lays out for us.

So let's see your Scripture evidence for what you have stated and that counters what I have laid out, because I'm not willing to change my belief system because Tinytim says I'm wrong and Marcia says I'm wrong or anybody else for that matter. Let's see the Scripture support.

what do you do with the fact that God creates a NEW HEAVEN and new Earth.

I believe that. How does that impact this view at all? It doesn't. Christ will rule and reign for a 1,000 years and then after that He will return the kingdom back to God and the throne will become the throne of God and the Lamb and God will tabernacle in the midst of His people. On the new earth. The whole idea that we will spend eternity in "heaven" is a church tradition that is just not Scriptural.

Now you can call living with God heaven if you want to I guess, but it's not going to be in the uttermost parts of the North where God is now, because God is coming down to the new earth. That is what Scripture tells us.

 

[tinytim]

I intentionally didn't give you the scriptures before... I wanted you to ask for them... here they are:

First of all the OT saints were saved by faith..... The whole 11th chapter of Hebrews....

specifically,
Hebrews 11:13-16 KJV
(13) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
(14) For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
(15) And truly, if they had been mindful of that [country] from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
(16) But now they desire a better [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


and:
Romans 4:2-3 KJV
(2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
(3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Now the works came after his faith, but he was given righteosness before his works... he simply believed God.


AS for To be seperated from God is to be eternally punished in the Lake of Fire... not just be outside the Kingdom.
Here is
Revelation 20:11-15 KJV
(11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And here is your own statement from your website with biblical references:
1. We believe that the only requirement to be saved from never ending judgment in the lake of fire is to believe one time on the finished work and death of Jesus Christ on the cross for one’s own sins (Acts 16:30-31; 1 Cor. 15:3; Jn. 19:30).

Now it is just not everyone else telling you, you are wrong... you can tell yourself. To be in the lake of fire is to be seperated from God. That is the only place you can be seperated from God:
Psalms 139:7-12 KJV
(7) Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
(8) If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there].
(9) [If] I take the wings of the morning, [and] dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
(10) Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
(11) If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
(12) Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light [are] both alike [to thee].

And before you say that it says that if a person goes to hell, God is still there. The word for hell here means the grave.

So to be seperated from God, means more than just being on the outside of the millenial kingdom. BTW, If believers are not to be in the kingdom, where are they going to be? I beleive that we will be rewarded with levels of responsibility in the kingdom based upon our faithfulness, But not to the point that believers will be seperated from our Savior.

You say, "Christ will rule and reign for a 1,000 years and then after that He will return the kingdom back to God and the throne will become the throne of God and the Lamb and God will tabernacle in the midst of His people. On the new earth. The whole idea that we will spend eternity in "heaven" is a church tradition that is just not Scriptural."

This time show you show scripture where Christ turns it back over to his father.

Maybe you can start another thread describing what you think the milleniall kingdom will look like, what we will be doing, where will it be, etc.

 

[ituttut]

"For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them.

I don't see how anyone can deny that all three of the slaves viewed in this passage of Scripture are saved. All three of them are "his OWN slaves." They belong to the man that is going away.

I don't totally agree, but you make a good point. You are correct in your post, with a couple of exceptions. "So again here is overwhelming evidence that there are indeed faithful and unfaithful Christians and that there will be a separation when we stand before our Judge." Christians were unknown, and an impossibility to place us into that dispensation under that understanding for the "Cross" had not happened, nor Damascus Road.

A comparison can be made, but we need three understandings to understand how we today fit in. You are correct for the Jew had to endure until the end. If they did they will be found in the "book of life". If not they will be judged at the "great white throne judgment". This is one of the understandings.

Even though all the parables are directed to His people, we can find application to us here. The second is those that claim to be "Christians" may or may not be. The Christian that is not a Christian will be judged at the "great white throne judgment", and will be judged as those of all dispensation's other than this "pure grace" period we today live in.

The third is those "Christians in the Body of Christ" are found in the "book of life". We are in the Book, now. There is another judgment, or "baptism". Our first "judgment" was our "one spiritual saving baptism" into the Body of Christ. Our last "judgment" is our "one baptism by fire" determining if our efforts on His behalf were acceptable to Him. If one has no works or none is found acceptable the person is still righteous in Christ, but no reward is awarded the person. We have here the "babe's" in Christ that remain so throughout their lives.

We see this parable, as with all the parables are directed and spoken to and for those Jesus said He came for. This speaks to the "kingdom people", those preached the "gospel of John the Baptist". We today were not spoken to at that time, but in His words we today knowing the "secret", can understand the purpose of God all along was the "reconciling of the world" unto Himself of those that believe His Word.

 

[ituttut]

I intentionally didn't give you the scriptures before... I wanted you to ask for them... here they are:

First of all the OT saints were saved by faith..... The whole 11th chapter of Hebrews....

Good to see someone else here has an understanding of "by" faith salvation apart from "through" faith while the person lives.

 

[Marcia]

First of all you give only the evidence of all Jews being unsaved as they rejected the Messiah. Rejecting the Messiah has nothing to do with eternal salvation. The Messiah is Christ as King.

They rejected Him as their King.

Now most people will agree that Jews after Exodus were saved because God said He would look at them through the blood of the pascal sacrifices.

...Israel was saved because they continued to slay the pascal lambs each year, and God continued to look at them through the death and blood of the animals, because it pointed to the eventual blood of Christ.

If I said or implied that all Jews are lost, that was a mistake. I was asking if you though all Jews were saved, and my point is that many Jews were not saved. Some were. But slaying the paschal lamb did not save them. What saves in both the OT and NT is faith. Some Jews in the OT had faith, some did not. It doesn't matter how many lambs they sacrificed.

Rejecting Jesus as King is rejecting Jesus. They did not accept him as the Messiah - that is called rejecting Jesus. They not only rejected him, but tried to have him killed. I do not call this saving faith! Do you believe that people who tried to kill Jesus and thought he was doing miracles by the power of Satan were saved?

Christ was sent as King to set up a kingdom not as an Eternal Savior.

Are you saying Jesus did not come as the Savior to save people from his sins?

Now a better question is do you believe that all saved people spend eternity with God. And the answer to that question is a resounding YES! Absolutely!!!

However what peolpe fail to understand is that there is an age of time that we will go through before we step into eternity. And that is the coming age of the kingdom of Christ, which will last 1,000 years.

And there is the possibility that an eternally saved person will be separated from Christ/God during that time.

You have not shown this in scripture. You've tried, but it's not there, JJ. Eternally saved people are not told by Jesus that he doesn't know them and cast into outer darkness.

BTW, where exactly will these people be? Is there some special compartment somewhere where they wait out the 1,000 years?

Most people fail to understand that the judgment seat of Christ is not just about rewards and loss of rewards, but it is about wages. You will receive wages for what you do whether good or bad. You will be paid. If you are faithful your payment will be wonderful. If you are unfaithful you will still be paid, but it's not something you are going to want!

So believers cannot be assured of having every tear wiped and finding joy in being with Christ?

This is what the vast majority of Christendom believes. But what motivation is there to live a righteous life if all I'm going to do is have a smaller piece of paradise. Big whoopie do it's still paradise. I can party with the best of them now and still get my piece of paradise in your view. I don't have to fear God at all, because you may take a crown or two, but He's still going to give me my one-room shack in the corner and in paradise that's all I need.

See the disturbing logic to that view?

No, because believers are motivated by God's word and the HS to live a life for God. It is the Spirit in us that transforms us, not we ourselves, though we can choose not to cooperate or to ignore the HS. But I believe in those cases, the person suffers, knowing they have grieved the HS. If someone who claims to be a believer thinks they can "party" and ignore God, I have to 1) doubt their salvation or 2) assume that they will be convicted and misreable, and eventually they turn back to God. I have seen the latter happen many times in believers.

It seems that because you don't understand how Christians who are not living good lives can enjoy being with Christ after death, you have succumbed to this view you are advocating here in order to justify your own beliefs that such believers should not be able to enjoy what the "good" believers enjoy.

 

[Hope of Glory]

How much sin makes us unfaithful?

What is the intent of your heart? David was called a man after God's heart, yet he was an adulterer a murderer... But, he repented.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

What Scripture tells us how much will cross the line?

With the exception of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit being unforgivable both in this age and the next, I don't think there are specifics. But, there are many exhortations and warnings about how to live. (Unless you think that salvation can be lost, what is the purpose of warnings if there are no consequences?)

Willful sin or lawlessness (iniquity) are talked about at great length, as well.

But, like the limo driver who was "auditioning" for the chauffer role, why push it as close to the edge as you can.

I think that's a legitimate warning in itself. We are told to do things and we are told not to do more things; the best thing to do is not figure out how many you can get away with.

If one sin makes us unfaithful to the point that we cannot be included in the Bride of Christ, who can be the Bride? None are perfect.

I'm preaching on the doctrine of correction this Sunday, and it is somewhat applicable to this very question. But, Elizabeth and Zechariah were found righteous, not because they were sinless, but because they walked in the commandments of the Lord.

I grew up with the baptist bride theology... do you hold to this?

Well, I have found that for most of my life, the churches that were most doctrinally sound and preaching the Kingdom have been Baptist, although many Baptist churches are dropping "Baptist" from their name now, as more and more Baptist churches abandon historic Baptist doctrine in favor of pew filling, PDL, etc.

I was taught that while only Baptists are the bride, the other non faithful denominations were guests... Is that something like your thinking?

Something like that, but I would not include all Baptists and I would include some non-Baptists.

 

[Hope of Glory]

The Bible talks about rewards and discipline. Some treat discipline as punishment, but discipline is for the good of the believer. If you reject discipline in this age, you will receive it in the age to come.

Punitive punishment and disciplining punishment are two different concepts and they are represented by two different words in the Greek text. You punitively punish a criminal, but you discipliningly punish your child.

Most people fail to understand that the judgment seat of Christ is not just about rewards and loss of rewards, but it is about wages. You will receive wages for what you do whether good or bad. You will be paid. If you are faithful your payment will be wonderful. If you are unfaithful you will still be paid, but it's not something you are going to want!

The wages of sin is death.

What are the wages of righteous living?

It's not spiritual salvation, because that's a gift.

Outer darkness means they are not in the light of the wedding feast. They are missing out on what all that pertains to and that means they are missing out on the kingdom.

It's very forceful. It's "The darkness the outer". It's a comparative adjective like our "further out"; it's the darkness outside the limits of the lighted palace. The repeated article makes it more emphatic. It's the darkness outside. Does this mean the lake of fire?

In the traditional oriental wedding, if someone came in unprepared (guest, servant, whomever), they would be cast outside because they didn't belong inside. But, guess what? They were let back inside later. They were still part of the family. But, they missed out on the glory of the wedding feast.

That's a great question. If we deny Jesus, He will deny us before His Father. Why would Jesus say that? Because the Father is the one that appoints rulers and brings them down.

If you are denied to the Father then He's not going to appoint you as a ruler. So we are denied to the Father.

It's important to see who's doing the denying here as well. Christ will rule for 1000 years, and he's the one doing the denying.

 

[Hope of Glory]

J.J.,

you say:

Wrong.

Outer darkness is speak of everlasting fire. Christ said of Matt. 13:42 - "And shall cast them into a furance of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Obivous, Matt. 25:30 tells us, a unprofitable servant shall be cast away into everlasting fire - lake of fire follow judgment seat of Christ/great white throne.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

The last I checked, a furnace of fire wasn't very dark, and fire is also used for a picture of refining, not always for punitive punishment.

 

[Hope of Glory]

just a side note. im not going to be in this debate.

but we've really got to remember that all of this was spoken to the jews by a jew in a jewish perspective.

so what's the jewish perspective on these scriptures?
i havn't a clue. but i think we should find a sound messianic group of jewish people and find out.
---

in my honest opinion.

It was spoken to the Jews, but Matthew 21:43 says, "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

If this Kingdom has been given to us, then thes Scriptures apply to us, but we do need to look at them from a Jewish perspective.

 

[J. Jump]

First of all the OT saints were saved by faith..... The whole 11th chapter of Hebrews....

Tim I have agreed with you on multiple ocassions that EVERYONE is saved by grace through faith. By the way Hebrews 11 is not a good place to show that salvation by faith, because Hebrews 11 is about faith that works (James 2). This is justification by faith and works together. This chapter is not talking about eternal salvation, becuase that is by faith apart from our works.

You used Abraham as an example, but in Hebrews 11 Abraham is shown being obedient, which doesn't have anything to do with eternal salvation.

Abraham was actually "saved" in Genesis 15 when he "believed" God concerning his descendants.

But I do agree with you that people are saved by grace through faith.

But what we have to remember is that what we are told by God to believe changes.

Abraham was told to believe God was going to give him descendants. After Exodus 12 God told them to slay pascal animals.

You haven't shown where God stopped accepting that and started telling Israel to believe something else. They were never told to believe in Jesus as the eternal Savior, but they were told to believe in Him and to continue to believe in Him as King. That was because they were already saved.

AS for To be seperated from God is to be eternally punished in the Lake of Fire... not just be outside the Kingdom.

That is true for those that stand at the great white throne judgment. But that is not the same judgment as the judgment seat of Christ.

Again you are trying to combine messages. Keep them separate and things will start to click.

Now it is just not everyone else telling you, you are wrong... you can tell yourself. To be in the lake of fire is to be seperated from God. That is the only place you can be seperated from God:

Tim do you honestly think that I would post something in my statement of faith that contradicts what I believe. Come on now.

Yes unsaved people will be separated from God forever. However unfaithful Christians will experience a period of separation from God. You can see this in the story of Abraham and Lot.

Abraham was seen on top of the mountain in the presence of God, while Lot was saved out of the cities, but he dwelled in a cave on the side of the mountain in a place of shame.

Again you can not explain away every reference. There's just too many of them.

So to be seperated from God, means more than just being on the outside of the millenial kingdom.

For the eternally unsaved that is an accurate statement and I would agree, but you are not dealing with faithful and unfaithful Christians. You are dealing with eternal salvation.

We are still on two separate pages and talking about two different subjects. Not everything is the Bible has to do with eternal salvation.

beleive that we will be rewarded with levels of responsibility in the kingdom based upon our faithfulness,

That's great. So do I for the faithful, obedient, overcoming Christian. What do you do with the unfaithful, disobedient, non-overcoming Christian?

You can try to deny that there won't be any, but you are merely fooling yourself, because the Bible says otherwise.

This time show you show scripture where Christ turns it back over to his father.

Revelation 21-22 - It's the end of the story as far as what we are told.

 

[J. Jump]

A comparison can be made, but we need three understandings to understand how we today fit in. You are correct for the Jew had to endure until the end. If they did they will be found in the "book of life". If not they will be judged at the "great white throne judgment". This is one of the understandings.

But it's an incorrect understanding. There eternal destiny was set the very moment they believed God, just like our is. We have to endure to the end in relation to the kingdom just as they did. There is no difference.

Jews will not stand at the great white throne judgment just because they didn't want to have a part in the heavenly kingdom any more than Christians will stand at that judgment seat because they refuse the same message.

Again you all are trying to combine messages when these are two separate things and need to be kept separated instead of combined. By combining messages you are placing great contradictions on the Scripture.

Even though all the parables are directed to His people, we can find application to us here.

Of course we can, becuase that message that they rejected in the Gospel accounts and the first few chapters of acts is now available to Christians.

The Christian that is not a Christian will be judged at the "great white throne judgment", and will be judged as those of all dispensation's other than this "pure grace" period we today live in.

This person does not exist. Either you are saved or you are not. There is no limbo. A Christian that is not a Christian is an impossibility.

The third is those "Christians in the Body of Christ" are found in the "book of life". We are in the Book, now.

But names can be blotted out of the book of life.

There is another judgment, or "baptism". Our first "judgment" was our "one spiritual saving baptism" into the Body of Christ. Our last "judgment" is our "one baptism by fire" determining if our efforts on His behalf were acceptable to Him. If one has no works or none is found acceptable the person is still righteous in Christ, but no reward is awarded the person. We have here the "babe's" in Christ that remain so throughout their lives.

Exactly. This is what I have been saying all along. The unfaithful Christian will not experience ruling and reigning and will find himself as Lot did outside of the presence of God for that age.

We see this parable, as with all the parables are directed and spoken to and for those Jesus said He came for. This speaks to the "kingdom people", those preached the "gospel of John the Baptist". We today were not spoken to at that time, but in His words we today knowing the "secret", can understand the purpose of God all along was the "reconciling of the world" unto Himself of those that believe His Word.

Right becuase now we as Christians have the right to become the kingdom people if we will endure. Israel will have their physical kingdom (although there are a number of Jews that did believe in the heavenly kingdom and will actually be a part of that kingdom), and the heavenly kingdom will be made up primarily of the bride of Christ, along with believing Jews before the cross.

 

[J. Jump]

I was asking if you though all Jews were saved, and my point is that many Jews were not saved.

And my point is we just don't have Scriptural evidence to say that. It may or may not be true, but I side on the side of Israel as entirely saved, becuase God dealt with them on a national basis not an individual basis until after they were saved. Then they were dealt with individually, becuase of continued sin that came up in their lives.

Every call for repetance is a call for national repentance. God wanted Israel to change it's mind. Now granted some individuals did, but God wanted the nation to change its mind as to His Son.

And even if there were some Jews that weren't saved, the NT deals with the ones that are saved, because they are the only ones that could even comprehend the spiritual message that was being delivered.

But slaying the paschal lamb did not save them. What saves in both the OT and NT is faith.

That's what I've been saying all along. But God told them to believe in Him through that system. Just like Abraham was supposed to believe God through His promise of many descendants.

The equation has never changed. Salvation by grace through faith has always been true, but the faith aspect has changed. Now it is the same for all throughout the remainder of human history, because The Sacrifice has been given.

Some Jews in the OT had faith, some did not.

How do you know that? We are you told of anyone that didn't believe God concerning the sacrificial system?

Rejecting Jesus as King is rejecting Jesus.

Right as King. HUGE difference. Again they weren't told to accept His death and shed blood, because they were already saved. We have to accept His death and shed blood now, because we aren't saved.

They did not accept him as the Messiah - that is called rejecting Jesus. They not only rejected him, but tried to have him killed.

Right as King. He wasn't asking them to accept Him as their Eternal Savior. He was asking them to accept Him as their King and Deliverer. Again you are mudding the water.

I do not call this saving faith!

It wasn't saving faith. They were ultimately denied the kingdom and the nation was not saved, but not from eternal damnation, but from the hands of the Romans.

Do you believe that people who tried to kill Jesus and thought he was doing miracles by the power of Satan were saved?

That's what the Bible says unless you can show otherwise. Again I'm not just going to take your word for it. So me where God said they no longer had to believe in the sacrificial system, but had to believe in something else for eternal salvation. It's just not there.

Again go back to John 3 and look at Nicodemus. Jesus "expected" him to understand what he was talking about. But how could Nicodemus have understood what Jesus was talking about if he was spiritually dead? He couldn't have, so the very fact that Jesus had expectations of Nicodemus shows that he was saved, but spiritually blind. Spiritually blind and spiritually dead are two totally different conditions.

Are you saying Jesus did not come as the Savior to save people from his sins?

That's exactly what He came for, but you are assinging your own meanings to those words and coming up with an incorrect context. The context was not eternal salvation or eternal damnation. The context was kingdom or no kingdom.

You have not shown this in scripture. You've tried, but it's not there, JJ.

Yes it is there, you are just completely ignoring the plain teaching of Scripture, becuase you don't like what it says. But that doesn't matter. What matters is that we let the Bible be the Bible and conform to it instead of the other way around.

Eternally saved people are not told by Jesus that he doesn't know them and cast into outer darkness.

And once again you are failing to show Scripture to the contrary. Please show me Scripture where every Christian will be found faithful. It's just not there.

You keep asking me to change my beliefs because Marcia said so. And I'm not going to do that. Bring some Scripture to the table and let's see what we got, but just because you say I'm wrong doesn't make it a reality.

BTW, where exactly will these people be? Is there some special compartment somewhere where they wait out the 1,000 years?

Does it matter? Isn't what we are already told bad enough. If we lose our inheritance and are separated from God, does it really matter where we will be? If we are wailing and gnashing our teeth because of deep grief and saddness over what we have done, does it really matter where we are?

So believers cannot be assured of having every tear wiped and finding joy in being with Christ?

Yes, when eternity begins. And that's exactly why people will have to have tears wiped away, because they missed out and were separated from God. That's a great point.

No, because believers are motivated by God's word and the HS to live a life for God.

Sure we are, but that doesn't mean we are going to do it. So me where obedience and good works are an absolute guarantee for a believer, and then show me how that meshes with Ephesians 2:10 which says we SHOULD do good works, not WILL do good works. Again Scripture is not there to support your view.

It is the Spirit in us that transforms us not we ourselves, though we can choose not to cooperate or to ignore the HS.

Exactly! That's my whole point. We must let Him change us. He doesn't force us to. But you say even if we don't obey it will be okay in the end. Don't sweat it.

But I believe in those cases, the person suffers, knowing they have grieved the HS.

They may for a bit, but after they have done it so long, and their consciences are so seared they could care less.

If someone who claims to be a believer thinks they can "party" and ignore God, I have to 1) doubt their salvation

That's what everyone says, because they don't want to deal with the reality of Scripture. Because you can't admit that there are going to be unfaithful Christians that are okay. So instead of dealing with it the way Scripture deals with it you just make up an excuse for them. Oh they must not be saved.

or 2) assume that they will be convicted and misreable, and eventually they turn back to God. I have seen the latter happen many times in believers.

But that doesn't happen every time and we must not base theology on personal experiences, but on the reality of God's Word!

It seems that because you don't understand how Christians who are not living good lives can enjoy being with Christ after death, you have succumbed to this view you are advocating here in order to justify your own beliefs that such believers should not be able to enjoy what the "good" believers enjoy.

I could care less. God is God and I'm not. If that's the way He wanted to deal with it who am to say differently. I don't have a personal interest in the matter, I just want to believe what God said.

 

[Marcia]

And even if there were some Jews that weren't saved, the NT deals with the ones that are saved, because they are the only ones that could even comprehend the spiritual message that was being delivered.

But a lot of them didn't comprehend! There are so many passages on this I can't believe you aren't aware of this. Over and over the bible tells us how they rejected what Jesus said and did and did not receive him. If they were saved, why didn't they comprehend?

But since you believe that Jews who were trying to kill Jesus and who attributed his miracles to Satan were saved, I don't think we have a common ground on which to discuss this. Attributing the miracles of Jesus to Satan was, according to Jesus, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and Jesus said it was unforgiveable.

Your whole theory rests on believing the Jews were saved and that everyone Jesus talked to was saved, which I think is totally unsupported by scripture. You keep saying I haven't given scripture for my points, but I did, over and over. You just re-interpet them in light of your own suppositions that the Jews were saved and that Jesus came to preach about the Kingdom and not salvation. The more I think about this, the more I see it as a serious undermining of the gospel, because it takes away from the gospel message. Based on your views, if I understand you correctly, there is no gospel message in the gospels. Is that correct?

 

[J. Jump]

But a lot of them didn't comprehend! There are so many passages on this I can't believe you aren't aware of this. Over and over the bible tells us how they rejected what Jesus said and did and did not receive him. If they were saved, why didn't they comprehend?

Once again you are trying to argue from a point that they were unsaved using Scripture that says they were clearly saved.

The whole idea that they could even understand the message shows they were saved, regardless of whether they accepted it or not. The fact that they were able to even entertain the offer and be expected to believe shows they are saved.

They didn't comrehend because they were spiritually blind. But spiritually blind and spiritually dead are two different things. Again look at Nicodemus. He was rebuked for not knowing what Jesus was talking about. How could he have known if he was spiritually dead? He couldn't have and Jesus' expectations would have been misplaced.

But since you believe that Jews who were trying to kill Jesus and who attributed his miracles to Satan were saved, I don't think we have a common ground on which to discuss this.

Show me with Scripture that they weren't saved and let's deal with it. I can't count how many posts you have made, but none of them have contained Scripture, just your opinion. Show me Scripture where it says they were unsaved. It's just not there.

Attributing the miracles of Jesus to Satan was, according to Jesus, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and Jesus said it was unforgiveable.

He didn't say it was unforgivable forever. He said it will not be forgiven in this age (the time we are living in now) or the age to come (which is Christ's kingdom not eternity - eternity is not an age).

Your whole theory rests on believing the Jews were saved and that everyone Jesus talked to was saved, which I think is totally unsupported by scripture.

This let's see where Scripture says otherwise.

keep saying I haven't given scripture for my points, but I did, over and over.

Where? Give me the post number and I'll go back and check them out.

just re-interpet them in light of your own suppositions that the Jews were saved and that Jesus came to preach about the Kingdom and not salvation.

Tell me what I gain by this view of Scripture? It certainly doesn't make me popular. It's not making me rich. It has cost me a church family and some friends and a Bible study. It has led me to be called every name in the book and then some.

Why would I want to presuppose this. That's just silly.

The whole notion that I would want to presuppose that not even I am guaranteed a spot in the kingdom is just silly. I again nothing out of this view other than coming closer to aligning with God's Word. And it is my hope that He will continue to share the Light through my members and that one day I will hear those words thou good and faithful servant. But even I am not guaranteed that.

And Jesus Himself said He went after that day preaching repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. So if Jesus said it I'm going to believe it. That's pretty simple. He preached the kingdom. He said it over and over and over. You are going to have to deny a lot of Scripture to say otherwise.

The more I think about this, the more I see it as a serious undermining of the gospel, because it takes away from the gospel message.

That's what most people do when they have come to the end of their rope and they just can't refute the teaching. They will just say well you are destroying the gospel.

Please explain how telling some to believe in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God as payment for your sin debt is underminding the gospel message?

Based on your views, if I understand you correctly, there is no gospel message in the Gospels. Is that correct?

Once again you are assinging your own context and meaning to words, because you are asking me if there is no eternal salvation message in the Gospels.

But to answer your question as you asked I would say you are incorrect, because there is good news TROUGHOUT all four Gospel accounts. They just don't have to do with eternal salvation. They are spreading the good news of the kingdom.

 

[ituttut]

[/color]

Originally Posted by Ituttut
A comparison can be made, but we need three understandings to understand how we today fit in. You are correct for the Jew had to endure until the end. If they did they will be found in the "book of life". If not they will be judged at the "great white throne judgment". This is one of the understandings.



But it's an incorrect understanding. There eternal destiny was set the very moment they believed God, just like our is. We have to endure to the end in relation to the kingdom just as they did. There is no difference.

But you are in conditional salvation just as they. They could not be unconditionally saved for they are saved by faith, which is with conditions. We have no conditions to meet for upon our believing in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation, we are already sealed in the faith of Christ Jesus. They were not and could be until after Damascus Road.

Jews will not stand at the great white throne judgment just because they didn't want to have a part in the heavenly kingdom any more than Christians will stand at that judgment seat because they refuse the same message.

That message was not offered to them; not until after Damascus Road. Show me scripture J. Jump that they were offered salvation through faith, before Damascus Road. It is not there. You are to believe what you read in His Word, or you believe words you or someone has placed in your mind.

Again you all are trying to combine messages when these are two separate things and need to be kept separated instead of combined. By combining messages you are placing great contradictions on the Scripture.

You are combining "by" faith with "through" faith, and it doesn't work. You cannot mix the "old" with the "new" for that "old" cloth will not "hold". It has to be done away with.

Quote:
Even though all the parables are directed to His people, we can find application to us here.


Of course we can, becuase that message that they rejected in the Gospel accounts and the first few chapters of acts is now available to Christians.

Then shouldn't you quickly become "circumcised" for your salvation, "repenting of your sins, and then be re-baptized in order for your sins to be remitted?" I believe the Catholic church can accommodate you in this matter of their baptism.

Quote:
The Christian that is not a Christian will be judged at the "great white throne judgment", and will be judged as those of all dispensation's other than this "pure grace" period we today live in.



This person does not exist. Either you are saved or you are not. There is no limbo. A Christian that is not a Christian is an impossibility.

I wish you would quit changing my meanings to fit your replies. The context is as I posted - "those that claim to be "Christians" may or may not be". Those that pose as Christians and are not, cannot possibly be Christians. They may belong to a church that Christians belong to, but that doesn't make them Christians.

The third is those "Christians in the Body of Christ" are found in the "book of life". We are in the Book, now.



But names can be blotted out of the book of life.

You are into Revelation now, and Revelation is written to His People, with the exception of a couple of verses. We are into prophecy, and those that are conditionally saved. Are you saying once we are saved, He will tell us, "Hey", "I changed my mind. My blood did not save you after all that you came through. I was only kidding, for you really came by faith in the blood of animals".

Do you find the Grace of God preached in the book of Revelation? It is a book of prophecy, which will come after we are "caught up". The Grace you find is in the very last verse to we in this dispensation. John does not apply this to any part of before as he speaks of this prophecy in verse 19 of Rev. 22, and ends it in verse 19. In verse 20 his prayer is for the "rapture", Even so, come, Lord Jesus. Notice this is not the "Lord's prayer to the Father for the "kingdom to come", but for our Lord Jesus to get us out or here before His comes in his wrath against His people.

Quote:
There is another judgment, or "baptism". Our first "judgment" was our "one spiritual saving baptism" into the Body of Christ. Our last "judgment" is our "one baptism by fire" determining if our efforts on His behalf were acceptable to Him. If one has no works or none is found acceptable the person is still righteous in Christ, but no reward is awarded the person. We have here the "babe's" in Christ that remain so throughout their lives.



Exactly. This is what I have been saying all along. The unfaithful Christian will not experience ruling and reigning and will find himself as Lot did outside of the presence of God for that age.

But Lot was not a Christian. Lot was saved by faith. Are you saying you are saved just as Lot was? When is the last blood sacrifice that you made to God?

Quote:
We see this parable, as with all the parables are directed and spoken to and for those Jesus said He came for. This speaks to the "kingdom people", those preached the "gospel of John the Baptist". We today were not spoken to at that time, but in His words we today knowing the "secret", can understand the purpose of God all along was the "reconciling of the world" unto Himself of those that believe His Word.



Right becuase now we as Christians have the right to become the kingdom people if we will endure. Israel will have their physical kingdom (although there are a number of Jews that did believe in the heavenly kingdom and will actually be a part of that kingdom), and the heavenly kingdom will be made up primarily of the bride of Christ, along with believing Jews before the cross

You are close for they stumbled, and we are taken in (God's purpose all along), just by believing on His name; not by enduring to the end as they, for we come through his faith. That means we come in His faith in His Father, and not by the faith of the Jew under covenant. We come through His blood in our faith in Him, not "by" the blood of animals, to hold until they can come through His blood, after they have endured until the end.

You fail to understand how we today (both Gentile and Jew) are in the Body of Christ Church coming only on the foundation of our Lord Jesus Christ (in heaven) by the gospel of Paul. You are on the foundation of Peter by the gospel of John the Baptist, and the Pentecostal church of the Jew, as shown in Acts 2:38.

 

[Hope of Glory]

If they were saved, why didn't they comprehend?

The same way that there are many saved people who cannot comprehend that in order for a lamp to be going out, they had to have been lit, even though it's written in the Scriptures in articulate Greek and in most English translations.

I never for a moment doubt the salvation of someone who cannot understand this.

 

[J. Jump]

But you are in conditional salvation just as they. They could not be unconditionally saved for they are saved by faith, which is with conditions. We have no conditions to meet for upon our believing in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation, we are already sealed in the faith of Christ Jesus. They were not and could be until after Damascus Road.

Again your are combining two different messages and destroying both of them in the process. We are ALL saved by grace through faith. That's who Adam was saved. That's how Abraham was saved. That's how David was saved. That's how John the Baptist was saved, Paul, Peter, Jim Bob, Sally Joe, you, me, EVERYONE.

The equation is the same - by God's grace through faith. The only thing that has changed in the faith. But we've already been over this already. Why do we need to continue?

That message was not offered to them; not until after Damascus Road. Show me scripture J. Jump that they were offered salvation through faith, before Damascus Road. It is not there. You are to believe what you read in His Word, or you believe words you or someone has placed in your mind.

Again EVERYONE is saved by God's grace through faith. Abraham believed God and it was counted as righteousness. You are having some serious issues with semantics I think!

You are combining "by" faith with "through" faith, and it doesn't work. You cannot mix the "old" with the "new" for that "old" cloth will not "hold". It has to be done away with.

The only one that is combining messages is you. You are trying to combine the kingdom message with eternal salvation and then you going here and subtracting over there, and to be quite frank you are extremely difficult to follow.

Everyone is saved by God's grace by believing in what it is that He told them to believe in. The very moment they believed they were saved. That's how the Bible explains it.

The OT saints were not saved by enduring or they would be saved by works. That's why we aren't saved by enduring. Neither are by works. Endurance has to do with works.

Then shouldn't you quickly become "circumcised" for your salvation, "repenting of your sins, and then be re-baptized in order for your sins to be remitted?"

No, but thanks for asking

"those that claim to be "Christians" may or may not be".

That may very well be what you meant, but that's not what you stated. And with this statement I will agree. There are probably some that believe they are Christians, but have never believed unto salvation.

Those that pose as Christians and are not, cannot possibly be Christians. They may belong to a church that Christians belong to, but that doesn't make them Christians.

Agreed, but I fail to see the relevance.

You are into Revelation now, and Revelation is written to His People, with the exception of a couple of verses. We are into prophecy, and those that are conditionally saved. Are you saying once we are saved, He will tell us, "Hey", "I changed my mind. My blood did not save you after all that you came through. I was only kidding, for you really came by faith in the blood of animals".

Huh? Sometimes you really are hard to follow.

But Lot was not a Christian. Lot was saved by faith. Are you saying you are saved just as Lot was? When is the last blood sacrifice that you made to God?

No Lot was not a Christian, but Lot was saved, and yes Lot was saved by God's grace through faith. The sacrifice didn't save him his faith in what God said regarding the sacrifice saved him.

Same as us believing what God said about the Sacrifice of His Son. Same equation by God's grace through faith, but we are just told different things to believe at different times.

You are close for they stumbled, and we are taken in (God's purpose all along), just by believing on His name; not by enduring to the end as they, for we come through his faith. That means we come in His faith in His Father, and not by the faith of the Jew under covenant. We come through His blood in our faith, not "by" the blood of animals, to hold until they can come through His blood, after they have endured until the end.

Here again you are combining two different messages instead of letting the apple speak apple Truth and the orange speaking orange Truth. You are trying to squeeze out an applange.

You fail to understand how we today (both Gentile and Jew) are in the Body of Christ

No I know exactly what the church is today. All believers are made a new creation in Christ which we are neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female. We are just one new man in Christ.

 

[tinytim]

Thank you J.J. I understand what you are saying now... I disagree, but I understand... I was misunderstanding you.

I'm sure you have had a lot of others disagree with you, as your view is very unorthodox. I have never heard it before, and I thought I had heard everything.

What Group, or denomination, teaches this?
Are there a lot of Baptists that teach this?

Now, you've got me studying. Thanks.. I needed a challenge.

 

[J. Jump]

What Group, or denomination, teaches this?
Are there a lot of Baptists that teach this?

The Spirit led me to these Truths about six or seven months ago now. Mostly Baptist churches have held on to these teachings, although churches that hold to these teachings are becoming few and far between.

From what I understand this is a historically well known teaching in the Baptist church. When I first started learning this I thougtht wow this is new, but I can remember back to when I was fairly young in the Baptist church and I can remember a preacher talking about there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth among believers. But that's all I can remember of his teaching and I can't even remember how old I was, but I wasn't a teenager yet.

I'm sure you have had a lot of others disagree with you, as your view is very unorthodox.

That is certainly the case and the Bible tells us that more and more people will fall away from these Truths during the final days in man's age. This is the apostasy that most if not all of the Bible speaks to. It's not a walking away from eternal salvation faith, but walking away from the faith that Christ is going to establish a kingdom and that we can have a part in it if we are faithful, obedient, non-overcomers.

There are a great many people, as I'm sure you can tell that don't even believe in a literal 1,000-year reign of Christ. Some are apostates, because they used to believe it, but some can't even be considered apostates, because they have never even believed the truth.