Parable of the Talents

And you have done what most everyone does when dealing with these issues. You have said this is false, but given no Scriptural evidence to the contrary.

Show me with Scripture where it says that the sacrificial system was no longer valid. It wasn't their actually doing it, it was the faith before they did it that saved them.

Just like it was the faith in Exodus 12 that saved them.

So at what point in Scripture did God says this is no longer a valid faith you have to believe in something else?

How do you counter with Scripture that they were being delivered a spiritual message that is incapable of being comprehended by a spiritually dead person.

That's just plainly not what Scripture lays out for us.

So let's see your Scripture evidence for what you have stated and that counters what I have laid out, because I'm not willing to change my belief system because Tinytim says I'm wrong and Marcia says I'm wrong or anybody else for that matter. Let's see the Scripture support.

I believe that. How does that impact this view at all? It doesn't. Christ will rule and reign for a 1,000 years and then after that He will return the kingdom back to God and the throne will become the throne of God and the Lamb and God will tabernacle in the midst of His people. On the new earth. The whole idea that we will spend eternity in "heaven" is a church tradition that is just not Scriptural.

Now you can call living with God heaven if you want to I guess, but it's not going to be in the uttermost parts of the North where God is now, because God is coming down to the new earth. That is what Scripture tells us.

 

Tim I have agreed with you on multiple ocassions that EVERYONE is saved by grace through faith. By the way Hebrews 11 is not a good place to show that salvation by faith, because Hebrews 11 is about faith that works (James 2). This is justification by faith and works together. This chapter is not talking about eternal salvation, becuase that is by faith apart from our works.

You used Abraham as an example, but in Hebrews 11 Abraham is shown being obedient, which doesn't have anything to do with eternal salvation.

Abraham was actually "saved" in Genesis 15 when he "believed" God concerning his descendants.

But I do agree with you that people are saved by grace through faith.

But what we have to remember is that what we are told by God to believe changes.

Abraham was told to believe God was going to give him descendants. After Exodus 12 God told them to slay pascal animals.

You haven't shown where God stopped accepting that and started telling Israel to believe something else. They were never told to believe in Jesus as the eternal Savior, but they were told to believe in Him and to continue to believe in Him as King. That was because they were already saved.

That is true for those that stand at the great white throne judgment. But that is not the same judgment as the judgment seat of Christ.

Again you are trying to combine messages. Keep them separate and things will start to click.

Tim do you honestly think that I would post something in my statement of faith that contradicts what I believe. Come on now.

Yes unsaved people will be separated from God forever. However unfaithful Christians will experience a period of separation from God. You can see this in the story of Abraham and Lot.

Abraham was seen on top of the mountain in the presence of God, while Lot was saved out of the cities, but he dwelled in a cave on the side of the mountain in a place of shame.

Again you can not explain away every reference. There's just too many of them.

For the eternally unsaved that is an accurate statement and I would agree, but you are not dealing with faithful and unfaithful Christians. You are dealing with eternal salvation.

We are still on two separate pages and talking about two different subjects. Not everything is the Bible has to do with eternal salvation.

That's great. So do I for the faithful, obedient, overcoming Christian. What do you do with the unfaithful, disobedient, non-overcoming Christian?

You can try to deny that there won't be any, but you are merely fooling yourself, because the Bible says otherwise.

Revelation 21-22 - It's the end of the story as far as what we are told.

 

But it's an incorrect understanding. There eternal destiny was set the very moment they believed God, just like our is. We have to endure to the end in relation to the kingdom just as they did. There is no difference.

Jews will not stand at the great white throne judgment just because they didn't want to have a part in the heavenly kingdom any more than Christians will stand at that judgment seat because they refuse the same message.

Again you all are trying to combine messages when these are two separate things and need to be kept separated instead of combined. By combining messages you are placing great contradictions on the Scripture.

Of course we can, becuase that message that they rejected in the Gospel accounts and the first few chapters of acts is now available to Christians.

This person does not exist. Either you are saved or you are not. There is no limbo. A Christian that is not a Christian is an impossibility.

But names can be blotted out of the book of life.

Exactly. This is what I have been saying all along. The unfaithful Christian will not experience ruling and reigning and will find himself as Lot did outside of the presence of God for that age.

Right becuase now we as Christians have the right to become the kingdom people if we will endure. Israel will have their physical kingdom (although there are a number of Jews that did believe in the heavenly kingdom and will actually be a part of that kingdom), and the heavenly kingdom will be made up primarily of the bride of Christ, along with believing Jews before the cross.

 

And my point is we just don't have Scriptural evidence to say that. It may or may not be true, but I side on the side of Israel as entirely saved, becuase God dealt with them on a national basis not an individual basis until after they were saved. Then they were dealt with individually, becuase of continued sin that came up in their lives.

Every call for repetance is a call for national repentance. God wanted Israel to change it's mind. Now granted some individuals did, but God wanted the nation to change its mind as to His Son.

And even if there were some Jews that weren't saved, the NT deals with the ones that are saved, because they are the only ones that could even comprehend the spiritual message that was being delivered.

That's what I've been saying all along. But God told them to believe in Him through that system. Just like Abraham was supposed to believe God through His promise of many descendants.

The equation has never changed. Salvation by grace through faith has always been true, but the faith aspect has changed. Now it is the same for all throughout the remainder of human history, because The Sacrifice has been given.

How do you know that? We are you told of anyone that didn't believe God concerning the sacrificial system?

Right as King. HUGE difference. Again they weren't told to accept His death and shed blood, because they were already saved. We have to accept His death and shed blood now, because we aren't saved.

Right as King. He wasn't asking them to accept Him as their Eternal Savior. He was asking them to accept Him as their King and Deliverer. Again you are mudding the water.

It wasn't saving faith. They were ultimately denied the kingdom and the nation was not saved, but not from eternal damnation, but from the hands of the Romans.

That's what the Bible says unless you can show otherwise. Again I'm not just going to take your word for it. So me where God said they no longer had to believe in the sacrificial system, but had to believe in something else for eternal salvation. It's just not there.

Again go back to John 3 and look at Nicodemus. Jesus "expected" him to understand what he was talking about. But how could Nicodemus have understood what Jesus was talking about if he was spiritually dead? He couldn't have, so the very fact that Jesus had expectations of Nicodemus shows that he was saved, but spiritually blind. Spiritually blind and spiritually dead are two totally different conditions.

That's exactly what He came for, but you are assinging your own meanings to those words and coming up with an incorrect context. The context was not eternal salvation or eternal damnation. The context was kingdom or no kingdom.

Yes it is there, you are just completely ignoring the plain teaching of Scripture, becuase you don't like what it says. But that doesn't matter. What matters is that we let the Bible be the Bible and conform to it instead of the other way around.

And once again you are failing to show Scripture to the contrary. Please show me Scripture where every Christian will be found faithful. It's just not there.

You keep asking me to change my beliefs because Marcia said so. And I'm not going to do that. Bring some Scripture to the table and let's see what we got, but just because you say I'm wrong doesn't make it a reality.

Does it matter? Isn't what we are already told bad enough. If we lose our inheritance and are separated from God, does it really matter where we will be? If we are wailing and gnashing our teeth because of deep grief and saddness over what we have done, does it really matter where we are?

Yes, when eternity begins. And that's exactly why people will have to have tears wiped away, because they missed out and were separated from God. That's a great point.

Sure we are, but that doesn't mean we are going to do it. So me where obedience and good works are an absolute guarantee for a believer, and then show me how that meshes with Ephesians 2:10 which says we SHOULD do good works, not WILL do good works. Again Scripture is not there to support your view.

Exactly! That's my whole point. We must let Him change us. He doesn't force us to. But you say even if we don't obey it will be okay in the end. Don't sweat it.

They may for a bit, but after they have done it so long, and their consciences are so seared they could care less.

That's what everyone says, because they don't want to deal with the reality of Scripture. Because you can't admit that there are going to be unfaithful Christians that are okay. So instead of dealing with it the way Scripture deals with it you just make up an excuse for them. Oh they must not be saved.

But that doesn't happen every time and we must not base theology on personal experiences, but on the reality of God's Word!

I could care less. God is God and I'm not. If that's the way He wanted to deal with it who am to say differently. I don't have a personal interest in the matter, I just want to believe what God said.

 

Once again you are trying to argue from a point that they were unsaved using Scripture that says they were clearly saved.

The whole idea that they could even understand the message shows they were saved, regardless of whether they accepted it or not. The fact that they were able to even entertain the offer and be expected to believe shows they are saved.

They didn't comrehend because they were spiritually blind. But spiritually blind and spiritually dead are two different things. Again look at Nicodemus. He was rebuked for not knowing what Jesus was talking about. How could he have known if he was spiritually dead? He couldn't have and Jesus' expectations would have been misplaced.

Show me with Scripture that they weren't saved and let's deal with it. I can't count how many posts you have made, but none of them have contained Scripture, just your opinion. Show me Scripture where it says they were unsaved. It's just not there.

He didn't say it was unforgivable forever. He said it will not be forgiven in this age (the time we are living in now) or the age to come (which is Christ's kingdom not eternity - eternity is not an age).

This let's see where Scripture says otherwise.

Where? Give me the post number and I'll go back and check them out.

Tell me what I gain by this view of Scripture? It certainly doesn't make me popular. It's not making me rich. It has cost me a church family and some friends and a Bible study. It has led me to be called every name in the book and then some.

Why would I want to presuppose this. That's just silly.

The whole notion that I would want to presuppose that not even I am guaranteed a spot in the kingdom is just silly. I again nothing out of this view other than coming closer to aligning with God's Word. And it is my hope that He will continue to share the Light through my members and that one day I will hear those words thou good and faithful servant. But even I am not guaranteed that.

And Jesus Himself said He went after that day preaching repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. So if Jesus said it I'm going to believe it. That's pretty simple. He preached the kingdom. He said it over and over and over. You are going to have to deny a lot of Scripture to say otherwise.

That's what most people do when they have come to the end of their rope and they just can't refute the teaching. They will just say well you are destroying the gospel.

Please explain how telling some to believe in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God as payment for your sin debt is underminding the gospel message?

Once again you are assinging your own context and meaning to words, because you are asking me if there is no eternal salvation message in the Gospels.

But to answer your question as you asked I would say you are incorrect, because there is good news TROUGHOUT all four Gospel accounts. They just don't have to do with eternal salvation. They are spreading the good news of the kingdom.

 

Again your are combining two different messages and destroying both of them in the process. We are ALL saved by grace through faith. That's who Adam was saved. That's how Abraham was saved. That's how David was saved. That's how John the Baptist was saved, Paul, Peter, Jim Bob, Sally Joe, you, me, EVERYONE.

The equation is the same - by God's grace through faith. The only thing that has changed in the faith. But we've already been over this already. Why do we need to continue?

Again EVERYONE is saved by God's grace through faith. Abraham believed God and it was counted as righteousness. You are having some serious issues with semantics I think!

The only one that is combining messages is you. You are trying to combine the kingdom message with eternal salvation and then you going here and subtracting over there, and to be quite frank you are extremely difficult to follow.

Everyone is saved by God's grace by believing in what it is that He told them to believe in. The very moment they believed they were saved. That's how the Bible explains it.

The OT saints were not saved by enduring or they would be saved by works. That's why we aren't saved by enduring. Neither are by works. Endurance has to do with works.

No, but thanks for asking

That may very well be what you meant, but that's not what you stated. And with this statement I will agree. There are probably some that believe they are Christians, but have never believed unto salvation.

Agreed, but I fail to see the relevance.

Huh? Sometimes you really are hard to follow.

No Lot was not a Christian, but Lot was saved, and yes Lot was saved by God's grace through faith. The sacrifice didn't save him his faith in what God said regarding the sacrifice saved him.

Same as us believing what God said about the Sacrifice of His Son. Same equation by God's grace through faith, but we are just told different things to believe at different times.

Here again you are combining two different messages instead of letting the apple speak apple Truth and the orange speaking orange Truth. You are trying to squeeze out an applange.

No I know exactly what the church is today. All believers are made a new creation in Christ which we are neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female. We are just one new man in Christ.

 

The Spirit led me to these Truths about six or seven months ago now. Mostly Baptist churches have held on to these teachings, although churches that hold to these teachings are becoming few and far between.

From what I understand this is a historically well known teaching in the Baptist church. When I first started learning this I thougtht wow this is new, but I can remember back to when I was fairly young in the Baptist church and I can remember a preacher talking about there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth among believers. But that's all I can remember of his teaching and I can't even remember how old I was, but I wasn't a teenager yet.

That is certainly the case and the Bible tells us that more and more people will fall away from these Truths during the final days in man's age. This is the apostasy that most if not all of the Bible speaks to. It's not a walking away from eternal salvation faith, but walking away from the faith that Christ is going to establish a kingdom and that we can have a part in it if we are faithful, obedient, non-overcomers.

There are a great many people, as I'm sure you can tell that don't even believe in a literal 1,000-year reign of Christ. Some are apostates, because they used to believe it, but some can't even be considered apostates, because they have never even believed the truth.