Parable of the Talents

You are operating on an assumption that someone who is not saved cannot understand the message. But I have talked to many lost people who do understand the message. They understand that God is telling them they are in sin and need a Savior. They just don't like it or don't want to believe it. I heard this message myself before I was saved. I read the Bible and heard preaching, yet I deliberately made a conscious decision to reject Christianity when I was in high school. I heard the message - I just didn't like it so I chose not to believe it and went on to other things.

Show me where it says they are saved. I did post scripture --the things Jesus said to people in the Matt. 25 parables are not things said anywhere else to saved people and are like the things said to unsaved people. What Jesus says will happen to them parallels what God's word tells us will happen to the lost.

Maybe this should be making you think that you are not reading scripture correctly.

 

I will answer here also, if you don't mind. At one point in time, it was fairly common. When I was growing up, if you visited another Baptist church, there was a 60/40 chance that you would get one that preached the Kingdom or one that preached spiritual salvation. (Of the former set, some taught it very articulately and some didn't; of the latter, it would be from evangelism to those who taught a works-based salvation like many do here, whether to earn it, keep it, or prove it.)

Over the years, it has become more and more rare, and depended greatly upon your geographical location. In one city where a friend of mine preaches, only 25 years ago, about 75% of the Baptist churches preached the Kingdom, now there are only a few.

I've had several churches contact me to either pastor, visit and preach, or come to teach Bible study conferences on the computer, and every single one of them is either Baptist, or had dropped "Baptist" from their name because so many Baptist sects had abandoned the teachings of the Kingdom for more seeker friendly stuff or in favor of trying to justify a works-based salvation of some sort. (Many of them changed from something like "Community Baptist Church" to "Community Bible Church".)

The reason that I'm at the church I am now, is that I was looking for a temporary church until I headed out in the bush to pastor (which did not happen because of a severe injury; looking back, I can see that it was a good thing for many reasons). While listening to the preacher, he didn't preach the Kingdom well, but he preached it. "This passage is talking about the Kingdom, I think, because it can't be talking about salvation because it's talking about enduring (works, etc.)" Although this is a valid argument, and he could effectively show why it was not talking about spiritual salvation, he was weak at showing why it was talking about the Kingdom or the salvation of the soul.

I can show both why it's not spiritual salvation and why it's salvation of the soul, and I fit right in with teaching and preaching, and then when events turned that we were suddenly without a pastor, I was immediately able to step in.

But, even around here, one preacher at a church in a nearby town, used to preach the Kingdom, but it didn't draw people in, so he abandoned the teaching. (Not the belief, and I find that appalling that he would intentionally water things down to fill the pews.) Another one, although he believes in salvational security, preaches against it, because "it's easier to keep people in line when they're scared of losing their salvation".

So, when one person starts teaching these false teachings, it spreads.

Out of all the individual churches that I personally know of that preach the Kingdom from a Biblical viewpoint (not the JW's), about two thirds of them are Baptist, and most of the others used to be Baptist.

Times are a changin', and I don't think it's for the better.

 

As an addendum:

About half the people that I know who have the eyes to see and ears to hear the Kingdom message grew up with some form of Kingdom teaching. But, a large number of people realized that there was something wrong with their "traditional" teachings. Some of them were shown, and some of them simply read the Scriptures and saw it. They saw that there is no need to justify works with spiritual salvation, because works have nothing to do with being saved. They saw that seemingly contradictory passages don't contradict each other because they're talking about completely different things.

As far as being "orthodox" (traditional), it is an orthodox teaching, in that its roots go back many, many years. It's not a new teaching, but it is a debated teaching, just as pre-mil, etc. is debated.

BTW, when you rightly divide between spiritual salvation issues and Kingdom issues, the entire Calvinist/Arminian debate goes away as well. When you rightly divide this way, almost all "contradictions" go away, with the exception of a few that have been debated as long as there have been saved people.

 

Not so fast!

J. Jump,

Seems you’re trying to have it both ways professing people being saved by grace through faith but then starting with a statement about Abraham you say:

Abraham was not saved in any way by the content of what he believed in, he was saved because of his faith alone in God as God knows the heart and it was that that was counted to him as righteousness. Abraham’s belief content was in the Lord, not in the content of having descendants.

You then add to that that all Jews are saved as if there is some pedigree involved in this, well that’s what the Pharisees thought also but John the Baptist straightened them out on that; you said you want scripture, lets start here:

(Mat 3:9) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Read Paul’s term for ALL the saved (Gal 3: 16-29)

All OT and NT were saved in the promise God gave to Abraham which was not by an inheritance of any law or belief by obedience, but faith, the OT people were brought to Christ under the schoolmaster, indwelled by the HS because of their faith. The difference today is in the ministry of belief in that it is written in our hearts. The OT had the ministry of death and the NT the ministry of life and there is NO fundamental difference, (2Cor 3:7-9, Gal 3:10-13)salvation always came by faith, and I might add this faith baptized them into Christ, now fully revealed.

Scripture for spiritual baptism:

(1Co 10:3) And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

(1Co 10:4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

What does the Lord require?

(Mic 6:8) He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

What is an “unfaithful Christian”??? That’s an oxymoronic statement don’t you think? Again you’re trying to have it both ways, a person that is truly saved is a Christian because of faith, you take away the faith and the person is not in Christ.

The centurion said he wasn’t worthy, it takes being humble to admit that, but he had great faith. Christ said many will sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; but the Israel they thought they had was not Israel, remember Jacob’s tortured cry, “I will not let you go until you bless me.” The religious significance in the name “Israel” can not be overlooked and would become a message to the world, evidence to a line of faith, those that had the father of faith, “fellow heirs of the same promise” that God gave to Abraham.

We do not fully understand what will come down at the JSOC but personally I will do justly, love mercy, remain humble and NEVER let go of my faith in Christ that is written in my heart. I may come away limping but know one will ever convince me my faith in Christ alone will not justify me to live in the kingdom.

As for Christendom, it seems you what it to go the way of the Pharisees; I do not care to recognize any change that would take away from the truth of faith as a little leaven would spoil the whole lump.

(Joh 6:35) And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger;and he that believeth on me shal lnever thirst.

 

Won’t most dispensationalist admit that only one third of the tribulation Jews will be saved, Zechariah 13:7-9?

I may be misunderstanding you but if you’re saying they believed that the blood of bulls and goats saved them then I disagree and contend it was faith that saved them and would challenge you to show me in the OT that it was more than a sign of obedience. I would also ask about the OT saints before the law.

Hmm, weren’t they kept with the HS indwelled in them by faith? They may not have understood it, but yes, it was there faith that kept them.
(Gal 3:23) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

The HS certainly could have been taken from them as shown with David in Psalms 51 but it wasn’t for those who kept by the saving faith; that is what I was getting at in my prior post with the difference in ministry from the OT to the NT but that there was no fundamental change in that all were saved by faith. Again, “The OT had the ministry of death and the NT the ministry of life and there is NO fundamental difference, (2Cor 3:7-9, Gal 3:10-13)salvation always came by faith, and I might add this faith baptized them into Christ, now fully revealed.”


(2Co 3:7) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

(2Co 3:8) How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

(2Co 3:9) For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

(Gal 3:10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

(Gal 3:11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, itis evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

(Gal 3:12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

(Gal 3:13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

I would suggest that your argument about the OT people not being indwelled with the HS is incorrect as the scripture implies the Israelites indwelled with the HS during the exodus.

(Isa 63:10) But they rebelled, and vexed his Holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

(Isa 63:11) Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his Holy Spirit within him?

I would think rather the issue is when the HS came into power, (Acts 1:8) where the scripture speaks of the prophetic office.

(Act 1:8)But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Look at where the servant put his talent; in the earth, the world, he received a gift but put his faith elsewhere. Oh, he believed and so does the devil, but if he had placed his faith above he would have been saved but he placed his faith in the earth. I do not think he was ever saved.

I hear ya, hot nor cold, white raiment, nakedness, buying of Him; I really don’t have a problem with you preaching to believers that they should better get busy I just question about the sound of it tying it into salvation.

Sorry, darn it anyway, cause it was making good since to me. :smilewinkgrin:

 

Pardon me for butting in here Benjamin, but I don't believe J. Jump to be a "dispensationalist" of the gospel of Paul.

 

I’m not following your reasoning on several of the issues here; earlier I pointed out that it seemed you were trying to have it both ways and it still appears so.

I completely fail to see the logic in the salvation of one’s soul not being eternal.

That is absolutely no proof that he was saved, EVERYTHING is God’s, every man is given his measure of faith.

God doesn’t give His goods to the unsaved??? Man, He gave His only begotten to us while we were yet sinners.

Which is exactly what he did not do (produce a profit) and now you flip and are describing his situation as unsaved after saying he was saved.

Again, by your own words he was not saved; you state the only people that can deliver are saved, so where is the evidence to prove he was ever saved here!? (You are confirming why he couldn’t be???)

I have no problem with what he was told and you have not supported you’re view with one iota of proof thereby your claim to the plain reading of scripture is unfounded.

Absolutely not! That is not what they were told by God.

AGAIN, you are trying to have it both ways, first saying their faith saved them then claiming the Lord saw them cleansed by the blood of ANIMALS.

It only was to purge their consciences and stood only in carnal ordinances signifying the HS until the time of reformation. (Hebrews 9) He did not look at them through the blood of animals as the blood of animals DID NOT CLEANSE THEM; He looked at the heart.

Further, they had no clue of this pointing to the ultimate sacrifice of their Messiah who would pay for their sins by His death on the cross.

That was not in regard to salvation, only what they were to be obedient to, it did NOT save them, they were never saved by works. And no, you can not compare the ministries between the OT and NT in that way. We know Christ shed His blood for all, OT and NT, and today we see the wisdom of God’s plan, knowing in began before the foundation of the world, the fully revealed gospel, and today we are saved by faith in believing God’s completed gospel message of His loving grace.

Ituttut, this is for you: ONE GOSPEL!!! :tongue3: Just razzing, let’s not go there.

Well if they had to be saved because of this you just proved yourself wrong because they didn’t understand the spiritual message and Christ pointed that out several times, it is clear when Jesus addressed the Pharisees that they didn’t understand or believe; so they must not have been saved by your own reasoning.

The whole point of the matter is neither the OT or NT people were/are saved by their works, but by their faith, and the kingdom of heaven is for the saved by faith.

 

He died for all.

His blood was shed for many.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

 

I stand corrected.:thumbs:

 

We know His "ageless gospel" never changes, but there are gospel's in His ages. Do you believe in at least 2 gospels? If not then Paul did not have a gospel, of which we are told that he does.

 

God knew from before the beginning His purpose was grace through faith, but man did not know this until God was ready to reveal it, and He did to Paul. You now know this for Christ Jesus revealed it to you, so Amen. But Adam didn't know this, nor Noah and forward. They were not asked or told to believe this gospel. If so it would be in the OT

But you did not know this until you read it in the Epistles of Paul. I've never said I wouldn't be in the "kingdom". But I look to be with Christ in heaven before that "kingdom comes' as taught in the OT.

I fail to understand why you refuse to believe that Christ Jesus taught Paul everything he knew of this "dispensation" we live in. You say Paul Learned, but will not say it was Christ Jesus that taught Him. If I misstate in this matter, I apologize, but I do not see acknowledgement of this in your posts.

Not only no longer Gentiles, but also no longer Jews, for Christ is all, and in all. It is all about Him

 

In looking at your interpretation of the parable, first, I don’t know why it would be impossible for our Lord to give His goods to the unsaved servant. I don’t know of any Biblical reference stating so and looked to the character of God: propitiation, grace, loving mercy, Jesus’ gifts of healing, His instructions to us:

(Luk 6:35)But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankfu land to the evil.

(Luk 6:36)Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Second, if our Lord gave His goods to an already saved servant with the expectation to receive a profit where is His judgment in the spiritual condition of such? It is stated that this servant was wicked, slothful-grievous, opinioned that his Lord was a fiercely hard man, fearful, unprofitable, losing all he had, cast into utter darkness and receiving God’s wrath. I would think a saved man would be righteous, Spirit lead, knowing the love of God, an adopted son with an inheritance, a man of light, faith, and certainly not receiving God’s wrath.

I am seeing your doctrine and lean towards somewhat similar beliefs pertaining to responsibilities as I share your disgust in the shack dwelling, and “I’ll just mow the lawn around the kingdom while naked” believer, yes, I’ve been told that one! But, personally I think you’re reading too much into the kingdom of heaven parables and attempting to separate salvation while disregarding the basic truths of Whose works get one there

I’ve been through the tread a couple times now and I think I just differ to your points, that doesn’t mean I missed it.

If God actually “expected” the servant to bring a profit he would have. Okay, I would agree that the servant wasn’t incapable, but unwilling but add because he didn’t have saving faith, he put his trust in the earth, so how could he currently be truly saved and not be in Christ? That’s like suggesting Jesus, or those in Him are not able to do good with the goods, like saying he’s part of the vine but not providing fruit. That does not appear as a saved person abiding in Christ to me.

The reason he decided to hide his talent in the earth is from fear of the Lord, he did believe and like I said before so does the devil but I would still contend that if he was saved, in Christ, by faith, he would have produced or otherwise it sounds you are contending that Christ did not produce. Also a saved person is told we have not received the spirit of bondage (to be a slave) again to fear, so if he had the Spirit why was he so fearful…it was a lack of faith not a lack of producing that wound him up in utter darkness, one that is a light is not going to be in darkness. God would not take away the inheritance from a son as you suggested earlier in this tread. As soon as you say it was a lack of producing you can only be referring to the works by the hands of the unsaved or are suggesting the works of man save you. Do you get that point?

We’re being instructed in the parable how to live in the kingdom, isn’t everyone unsaved before they are saved and incapable until believing the truth and choosing to ask the Lord in their life by faith and it is in Him that they become righteous.

I believe you’re trying to have it both ways and maybe thinking you’re clearing up a controversy in the scripture by separating a kingdom salvation from eternal salvation. For lack of better words, I see it as one big picture and no need to divide it.

 

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I have no problem with what he was told and you have not supported you’re view with one iota of proof thereby your claim to the plain reading of scripture is unfounded.

I see the parable as instruction (to who would be those that will believe) so as to be prepared and use the goods that our Lord will give us, to remain in the faith, to be a good workman.

To me it is about being created in Christ and entering the kingdom by faith and being kept by the Spirit, a true slave in Christ is maintained in faith by hope in the love of God as a son. Unfortunately some would have you to deny this fact.

(Rom 8:15) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

You want to know what I think happened to the third one: (Psa 69:27) Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.

God only looks at the heart through the blood of Christ, never animal blood; He certainly searches “every individual”. The physical blood of animals was but a carnal ordinance, it was not literal to them because it was a mystery and the ministry of death was a glorious ministration to bring about repentance by faith. It was only their faith that sanctified them and they were not kept in the Spirit by works of hands. The work of the blood was often in error and imperfect and the only thing that was required for their eternal salvation is faith.

(Psa 7:10) My defense is of God, which saveth the upright in heart.

(Psa 40:6) Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

(Psa 40:7) Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book itis written of me,

(Psa 40:8) I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

(Psa 44:20) If we have forgotten the name of our God, or stretched out our hands to a strange god; (note and compare the heart and the stumblingblock in Eze 14)

(Psa 44:21) Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.

(Psa 139:23) Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:

(1Ch 28:9) And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off forever.

 

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Further, they had no clue of this pointing to the ultimate sacrifice of their Messiah who would pay for their sins by His death on the cross.

It does matter when you make statements that sound as if the OT people were actually cleansed in the blood of animals to support your view.

No, I think I just disagree with the attempt to separate eternal salvation with the dispensational kingdom twist (sounds like a dance doesn’t it?) :smilewinkgrin: and you are having a problem accepting that and think that those who disagree are blind to a believers responsibilities. Faith in God and love of the truth produces good works through the Spirit.

You’ll say faith is what saved them, but read ahead.

No, you can’t if you’re suggesting the works of the blood of animals actually accomplished salvation for them and then compare that to the blood of Christ in the NT, and that’s exactly what I mean about trying to have it both ways, You said: … “but what were they told by God. That He would look at them through the blood of the animals,” that is comparing their own works of sacrifice in obedience to God’s propitiation with the false assumption that God looked at them through that carnal animal blood. You say faith apart from works but you plainly don’t stick to it.
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Well if they had to be saved because of this you just proved yourself wrong because they didn’t understand the spiritual message and Christ pointed that out several times, it is clear when Jesus addressed the Pharisees that they didn’t understand or believe; so they must not have been saved by your own reasoning.

I was just dealing with your proofing that they had to be saved because of understanding Jesus’ message; not even the 12 fully understood it as I think you know.

To me if they’re saved, they’re saved in the Spirit by faith, if they truly believe and ask God He will give them the “understanding”, they will receive the gift of wisdom they need and God will not give them more than they can handle; if they disregard the counsel they did not choose to fear/love the Lord and will receive His wrath on unbelievers, if they refuse then they will not repent, they then have their own fruit and that doesn’t constitute salvation to begin with.

(Pro 1:24) Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

(Pro 1:25) But ye have set at naught all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

(Pro 1:26) I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

(Pro 1:27) When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

(Pro 1:28) Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

(Pro 1:29) For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

(Pro 1:30) They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

(Pro 1:31) Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

(Pro 1:32) For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.

(Pro 1:33) But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

Well then what can one can add to faith as that is what righteousness comes through and guess we will see the message of the kingdom differently. I would say if you’re saved you’re saved by the Spirit in faith. I differ with the this dispensationalist program of “rightly dividing” the Word to mean separating these type of things to prove doctrines and see “rightly dividing” to mean as a clean single clean cut to look into the Word to examine it as a whole, a complete picture, not to chopping it into pieces however it suits ones theology.