There are some major heresies alive and well in church today regarding after life, one would be Purgeotory, another that we simply cease to exist, and other is Universalism!
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Paradise Purgatory - the "other" option
- Thread starter BobRyan
- Start date
There are some major heresies alive and well in church today regarding after life, one would be Purgeotory, another that we simply cease to exist, and other is Universalism!
Bo
First I a had long rant till I found a wiki on SDA HOSPITALS
It turns out I was wrong. SDA doesn't kill children for money.
Info from the wikis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventist_Health
They just do it for free.
Stance on abortion[edit]
Since 1973, many Adventist hospitals perform elective abortions under any circumstance.[7] Though some hospitals refrain from performing any abortions, the majority of those that do not perform elective abortions offer "therapeutic" abortions under "extreme circumstances".[8] Since the Seventh-Day Adventist Church does not officially take a strong stance against abortions there is wide variety of opinions on this subject within the church.[9]
That's just one group there is more
Adventist Health is a not-for-profit health care organization which operates facilities throughout the western U.S. states of California, Hawaii, Oregon, and Washington. It is run by the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
The PHRASE it us RUN by the SEVENTH-DAY Adventist church. Actually means if SDA church says Shut it down it gets shut down.
In comparison if you do a search of catholic hospitals doing abortions. You are gonna see stories of aclu trying to force catholics to do abortions.
While if you do a search of SDA hospitals doing abortions You are gonna see stories of SDA pastors trying to change the mess.
Heres a small excerpt by Pastor Tony Brandon, Baker City Seventh-day Adventist Church:
http://religiousliberty.tv/unsurpas...abortion-adventist-hospitals-transcribed.html
====
Now there are some Seventh-day Adventists who were quite angry at learning that Adventist health system allows elective abortions. Let me read to you a response from one Seventh-day Adventist. It's quite interesting.
"My wife and I no longer refer to ourselves as Adventists because we were embarrassed to do so. We keep the Sabbath and pray to God that he will help us to continue to grow in grace and knowledge daily. We will not continue to support a church that obsesses more on how bad milk and meat is for you or how much makeup you wear, while completely disregarding the weightier matters of the law."
I agree 100%. There are, Jesus says there are camel sized issues and there are gnat sized issues. Do you remember what he said to the Pharisees? You strain a net but you are willing to swallow a camel. There are camel sized issues and there are gnat sized issues. Continue,
====
Rob If I was some evil catholic asking you to kill folks that's great grounds to blow me off.
But I am appealing to your mercy, kindness and compassion to look into this.
I would be thrilled and happy if you could come out and say its all a unsubstantiated allegation.
Please prove me a Liar.
I'm trying to defend your children and you want to kick me down for it
First I a had long rant till I found a wiki on SDA HOSPITALS
It turns out I was wrong. SDA doesn't kill children for money.
Info from the wikis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventist_Health
They just do it for free.
Stance on abortion[edit]
Since 1973, many Adventist hospitals perform elective abortions under any circumstance.[7] Though some hospitals refrain from performing any abortions, the majority of those that do not perform elective abortions offer "therapeutic" abortions under "extreme circumstances".[8] Since the Seventh-Day Adventist Church does not officially take a strong stance against abortions there is wide variety of opinions on this subject within the church.[9]
That's just one group there is more
Adventist Health is a not-for-profit health care organization which operates facilities throughout the western U.S. states of California, Hawaii, Oregon, and Washington. It is run by the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
The PHRASE it us RUN by the SEVENTH-DAY Adventist church. Actually means if SDA church says Shut it down it gets shut down.
In comparison if you do a search of catholic hospitals doing abortions. You are gonna see stories of aclu trying to force catholics to do abortions.
While if you do a search of SDA hospitals doing abortions You are gonna see stories of SDA pastors trying to change the mess.
Heres a small excerpt by Pastor Tony Brandon, Baker City Seventh-day Adventist Church:
http://religiousliberty.tv/unsurpas...abortion-adventist-hospitals-transcribed.html
====
Now there are some Seventh-day Adventists who were quite angry at learning that Adventist health system allows elective abortions. Let me read to you a response from one Seventh-day Adventist. It's quite interesting.
"My wife and I no longer refer to ourselves as Adventists because we were embarrassed to do so. We keep the Sabbath and pray to God that he will help us to continue to grow in grace and knowledge daily. We will not continue to support a church that obsesses more on how bad milk and meat is for you or how much makeup you wear, while completely disregarding the weightier matters of the law."
I agree 100%. There are, Jesus says there are camel sized issues and there are gnat sized issues. Do you remember what he said to the Pharisees? You strain a net but you are willing to swallow a camel. There are camel sized issues and there are gnat sized issues. Continue,
====
Rob If I was some evil catholic asking you to kill folks that's great grounds to blow me off.
But I am appealing to your mercy, kindness and compassion to look into this.
I would be thrilled and happy if you could come out and say its all a unsubstantiated allegation.
Please prove me a Liar.
I'm trying to defend your children and you want to kick me down for it
God is a Universalist. Least he was until folks sinned.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
One can speculate anything they wish - it is more difficult to show a point from the actual Bible.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Your ability to be wrong on a topic not even related to this thread - has been demonstrated repeatedly. It "goes without saying".
I think it is best to stick with the actual topic.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Now here is an "on-topic" detail - shall we simply ignore the posts that are on the actual topic of the thread? That does not make sense.
====================================
Your own EWTN your own RC Encylopedia make this point about torture and flames of hell - punishment in Purgatory - you cannot demonize your own Catholic teaching organization then condemn anyone who quotes it as being a Catholic source.
from - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
Purgatorial FIRE
.... In the West the belief in the existence of real fire is common. Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37, no. 3) speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P.L., col. 397). Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and he adds "that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life" (Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1). Following in the footsteps of Gregory, St. Thomas teaches (IV, dist. xxi, q. i, a.1) that besides the separation of the soul from the sight of God, there is the other punishment from fire. "Una poena damni, in quantum scilicet retardantur a divina visione; alia sensus secundum quod ab igne punientur", and St. Bonaventure not only agrees with St. Thomas but adds (IV, dist. xx, p.1, a.1, q. ii) that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life; "Gravior est omni temporali poena. quam modo sustinet anima carni conjuncta". How this fire affects the souls of the departed the Doctors do not know, and in such matters it is well to heed the warning of the Council of Trent when it commands the bishops "to exclude from their preaching difficult and subtle questions which tend not to edification', and from the discussion of which there is no increase either in piety or devotion" (Sess. XXV, "De Purgatorio").
From http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=348599&language=en
"I answer that, nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question. It is probable, however, and more in keeping with the statements of holy men and the revelations made to many, that there is a twofold place of Purgatory. One, according to the common law; and thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory; although the damned being lower in merit, are to be consigned to a lower place. Another place of Purgatory is according to dispensation: and thus sometimes, as we read, some are punished in various places, either that the living may learn, or that the dead may be succored, seeing that their punishment being made known to the living may be mitigated through the prayers of the Church."
Father Echert
====================================
Your own EWTN your own RC Encylopedia make this point about torture and flames of hell - punishment in Purgatory - you cannot demonize your own Catholic teaching organization then condemn anyone who quotes it as being a Catholic source.
from - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
Purgatorial FIRE
.... In the West the belief in the existence of real fire is common. Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37, no. 3) speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P.L., col. 397). Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and he adds "that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life" (Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1). Following in the footsteps of Gregory, St. Thomas teaches (IV, dist. xxi, q. i, a.1) that besides the separation of the soul from the sight of God, there is the other punishment from fire. "Una poena damni, in quantum scilicet retardantur a divina visione; alia sensus secundum quod ab igne punientur", and St. Bonaventure not only agrees with St. Thomas but adds (IV, dist. xx, p.1, a.1, q. ii) that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life; "Gravior est omni temporali poena. quam modo sustinet anima carni conjuncta". How this fire affects the souls of the departed the Doctors do not know, and in such matters it is well to heed the warning of the Council of Trent when it commands the bishops "to exclude from their preaching difficult and subtle questions which tend not to edification', and from the discussion of which there is no increase either in piety or devotion" (Sess. XXV, "De Purgatorio").
From http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=348599&language=en
"I answer that, nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question. It is probable, however, and more in keeping with the statements of holy men and the revelations made to many, that there is a twofold place of Purgatory. One, according to the common law; and thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory; although the damned being lower in merit, are to be consigned to a lower place. Another place of Purgatory is according to dispensation: and thus sometimes, as we read, some are punished in various places, either that the living may learn, or that the dead may be succored, seeing that their punishment being made known to the living may be mitigated through the prayers of the Church."
Father Echert
Bob, You have as much Church authority as EWTN and RC encyclopedia.
I already pointed out to ROME Vatican Catechism. We have a catechism for OFFICIAL teaching.
I would be an idiot to take any source as "official SDA teaching" rather then the info provided by the SDA general conference.
The internet is a big place and ain't hard to find a "expert" of SDA faith that the general conference would not agree with.
The catechism is quite clear purgatory is unlike hell, And the punishments are not enforced by God but are intrinsicly part of sin itself.
To quote Fulton J. Sheen “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
You attack with misrepresentation after misrepresentation. When are you going to find something wrong with the catechism? Something the church actually teaches?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Many readers -- both Catholic and non-catholic would agree with me - that you have much less RCC authority to teach or describe Catholic doctrine than do the theologians and historians on EWTN or the RC Encyclopedia.
If your argument is that this is simply "where we differ" -- I am more than happy to have that as the dividing line.
Your idea that villainizing your fellow Catholics is the "grand solution to every problem" has limited usefulness.
Here again you condemn your own RC sources as nothing more than "misrepresentation". Condemning your own group "as if that is its best defense" is not the holy grail defense you seem to imagine
You are not mentioned in the Catechism or by any of these well-known and well-accepted RC sources - yet you condemn them all.
If you think that I would have any credibility quoting "you" instead of the well-respected well-accepted Catholic sources I do quote - then think again. My objective is to provide sources that will appeal to those not reducing themselves to a deny-all strategy.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I am quoting source that have the "Papal Imprimatur" in the case of the commentary on the Catechism (and of course I quoted the Bible) -- and these are well known and well accepted.
as for - Echert
======================================================================
"Fr. John Echert, S.S.L.Father Echert is a priest of the Archdiocese of St. Paul-Minneapolis, ordained in 1987. He is a member of the faculty of The Saint Paul Seminary in Minnesota and teaches Sacred Scripture. He is also an adjunt faculty member of the University of St. Thomas. Father Echert has the Licentiate in Sacred Scripture (S.S.L.) degree from the Pontifical Biblical Institute, Rome with additional graduate studies at the Ecole Biblique, Jerusalem. He is also a military chaplain in the U.S. Air Force Reserve.
Father Echert writes a column on the monthly readings of the Mass for "The Catholic Servant," a monthly publication for Evangelization, Catechesis and Apologetics available on the internet at www.catholicservant.org ."
https://www.ewtn.com/faith/QA/expertslist.htm
And of course he quotes the ECFs you so love the quote
from - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
Purgatorial FIRE
.... In the West the belief in the existence of real fire is common. Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37, no. 3) speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P.L., col. 397). Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and he adds "that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life" (Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1). Following in the footsteps of Gregory, St. Thomas teaches (IV, dist. xxi, q. i, a.1) that besides the separation of the soul from the sight of God, there is the other punishment from fire. "Una poena damni, in quantum scilicet retardantur a divina visione; alia sensus secundum quod ab igne punientur", and St. Bonaventure not only agrees with St. Thomas but adds (IV, dist. xx, p.1, a.1, q. ii) that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life; "Gravior est omni temporali poena. quam modo sustinet anima carni conjuncta". How this fire affects the souls of the departed the Doctors do not know, and in such matters it is well to heed the warning of the Council of Trent when it commands the bishops "to exclude from their preaching difficult and subtle questions which tend not to edification', and from the discussion of which there is no increase either in piety or devotion" (Sess. XXV, "De Purgatorio").
==================================
If you can prove I am using sources that are anti-Catholic or that are not-known to Catholics or that have been discredited by the RCC - please show the data.
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I'm sure billions could agree with you Bob, No doubt you have concluded logically and very well based the information provided to you.
But, That's not how it works Ryan.
Case in point, MANY catholics thought and I'm sure some still think, that THE BIBLE, A Catholic Book is the Final Authority concerning matters of Faith. Fact some were so convinced they left to do their own thing.
I myself remember debating a nun in grade school, I forgot the subject, she beat me on basis if it is not in the bible then it is not true. SO I thought to myself oh well its a rule book then?
I bet if we could do a poll of all Catholics on earth a majority would assume Sola Scriptura is how it operates.
This doesn't change Catholic teaching. If you want the teaching Officially I provided the link to Vatican catechism
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
We are doing a same game of sola scriptura over other catholic sources. We can play that game.
The exact meanings of everything you read in the very mysterious and cryptic, coded in catholic understanding, hard to understand EWTN, RC encyclopedia, and Baltimore Catechism can be found in Vatican catechism on the link I provided.
I have a CATHOLIC North Alaska-catechism right here in my hand says 100031 in purgatory everyone is going freeze their rear off. Does it mean what you read? Nope. You don't have the proper training to understand. You need to look up the OFFICIAL teaching from ROME aka Vatican.
Let's get the truth straightened out here.
1. The Bible is NOT a Catholic book, and never was.
2. However the Bible, God's book written to mankind, is the final authority concerning all matters of faith and doctrine. At least that much is true.
#1 Jesus Christ is a Catholic.
First one.
The bible was written by the first Christians, IE the Catholics. Christian and Catholic meant the same thing for 1500 years. Till two Catholics decided to split.
#2 "is the final authority concerning all matters of faith and doctrine. At least that much is true." Is no where found written in the bible.
God almighty is the final authority.
I am a bible believing Christian. That means I actually believe what it says and I don't have to make up what it says.
So if Jesus says if you want to inherit eternal life go dance........Then we dance. If Jesus says go fishing.....we fish.
And If Satan says just kneel and worship me and ill give you all these kingdoms, I don't copy and paste Satan's plan of salvation on Christ.
Just accept me as lord and savior and you are in the kingdom. <-- Jesus never said this. Only Satan did.
Because I believe the bible. Jesus said LOVE GOD, Love your neighbor.
This is vanity and arrogance. You are taking away the deity of Christ, making him a false prophet of a false religion. This is on par what the Muslims have done with Christ. He is one of their prophets--a great prophet, and thus a Muslim prophet. But you say that instead of a Muslim prophet he is a Catholic prophet. Sick!!
He is God Almighty, the Creator of the Universe, the King of kings and Lord of lords, before whom every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father.
Regrettably, you believe his is just a Catholic, one of yours, part of your false denomination.
Pity!
Christian and Catholic have never meant the same thing except in the mind of a Catholic.
Throughout history true Christians have always protested against the evil doctrines and the moral evils of the RCC. They have never been considered Christianity.
Neither is the "trinity," Christology, theology, Catholic, Eucharist, "Roman Catholic Church," indulgences, etc. The first three are true and biblical doctrines, the last four are not.
God almighty inspired His Word, gave it to mankind via his churches, i.e. local churches that follow Him which eliminates the RCC.
Here is what Jesus said, just in case you haven't heard:
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
--The great demonstration of our love for Christ is our obedience to Him.
Three times in one chapter Jesus commands his disciples to obey Him IF we love Him.
He also says:
Matthew 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
--In answer to your post, He has commanded me to go fishing, and thus I will go, as I have in the past. I will continue to do so. It is His divine will that I go fishing. It is His divine will that all of his spiritual children do so. But those who have not been born again by His Spirit (not water) are not part of His family, and this command is not for them.
Why would you?
Here is what the Word says:
(KJV) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
The KJV is a very literal and accurate translation and I like it. But there are others, even paraphrases that sometimes give the sense of the meaning, that which you are looking for (or not)
For example:(CEV) Yet some people accepted him and put their faith in him. So he gave them the right to be the children of God.
--But this sounds what you just said is not written in the Bible. Maybe you are just not reading the right translation. I don't recommend the translation for daily reading. The point is you are avoiding Bible study to see what the Bible truly says about this subject.
Jesus said many things about love.
You don't have the ability to love your neighbor until you have the ability to love God first.
You don't have the ability to love God until you are born again first.
You don't have the ability to be born again until you understand what it is.
You don't have the ability to understand the new birth or born again, until you renounce what the Catechism says about it. Are you willing to do that; to start there?
This is vanity and arrogance. You are taking away the deity of Christ, making him a false prophet of a false religion. This is on par what the Muslims have done with Christ. He is one of their prophets--a great prophet, and thus a Muslim prophet. But you say that instead of a Muslim prophet he is a Catholic prophet. Sick!!
He is God Almighty, the Creator of the Universe, the King of kings and Lord of lords, before whom every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father.
Regrettably, you believe his is just a Catholic, one of yours, part of your false denomination.
Pity!
Christian and Catholic have never meant the same thing except in the mind of a Catholic.
Throughout history true Christians have always protested against the evil doctrines and the moral evils of the RCC. They have never been considered Christianity.
Neither is the "trinity," Christology, theology, Catholic, Eucharist, "Roman Catholic Church," indulgences, etc. The first three are true and biblical doctrines, the last four are not.
God almighty inspired His Word, gave it to mankind via his churches, i.e. local churches that follow Him which eliminates the RCC.
Here is what Jesus said, just in case you haven't heard:
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
--The great demonstration of our love for Christ is our obedience to Him.
Three times in one chapter Jesus commands his disciples to obey Him IF we love Him.
He also says:
Matthew 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
--In answer to your post, He has commanded me to go fishing, and thus I will go, as I have in the past. I will continue to do so. It is His divine will that I go fishing. It is His divine will that all of his spiritual children do so. But those who have not been born again by His Spirit (not water) are not part of His family, and this command is not for them.
Why would you?
Here is what the Word says:
(KJV) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
The KJV is a very literal and accurate translation and I like it. But there are others, even paraphrases that sometimes give the sense of the meaning, that which you are looking for (or not)
(CEV) Yet some people accepted him and put their faith in him. So he gave them the right to be the children of God.
--But this sounds what you just said is not written in the Bible. Maybe you are just not reading the right translation. I don't recommend the translation for daily reading. The point is you are avoiding Bible study to see what the Bible truly says about this subject.
Jesus said many things about love.
You don't have the ability to love your neighbor until you have the ability to love God first.
You don't have the ability to love God until you are born again first.
You don't have the ability to be born again until you understand what it is.
You don't have the ability to understand the new birth or born again, until you renounce what the Catechism says about it. Are you willing to do that; to start there?
Backward theology
"You don't have the ability to love your neighbor until you have the ability to love God first."
DHK, You claim PRECISELY BACKWARDS to the word of God.
1 John 4
20If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.
There is an order stated in scripture. This means you have no capability of loving GOD unless you love your neighbors. Cannot love God. That means you can not do it.
"You don't have the ability to love God until you are born again first.
You don't have the ability to be born again until you understand what it is. "
Backwards, Backwards, Backwards
No scripture to back up your claim, I got the scripture but you hate what it says and run it backwards.
Folks rather copy Satan's salvation plan.
God has to forgive you a mercy on his part for you to be born again.
What does Jesus Christ say about God's Mercy?
Matthew 6
14“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15“But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
You have to forgive others FIRST,
You want me to renounce the church? Satan commands to take all scripture BACKWARDS as a mockery of God.
James 2
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
What does SATAN say? lets do it BACKWARDS lets fix all these bible verses
Anti-James 2 You see that a man is justified by FAITH ALONE and not by WORKS
Anti-Matthew 6 For if GOD forgives your transgression, THEN you will forgive others for their transgressions.
Anti-1john4 The one who does not love God who he has not seen cannot love the brothers he does see.
2 peter 2
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
Satan says we can't have that you need to believe the devi's doctrine:
4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!
Lets fix peter:
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, sin all you want because: “You surely will not die!"
I don't need to renounce my faith, You need to become a BIBLE BELIEVING CHRISTIAN.
All scripture I take at face value, Brother is there anything in there you don't take BACKWARDS!?
I could go ON AND ON.
Jesus says:
John 6
53So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55“For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
Anyone want to guess what DHK believes? Gee lets run it BACKWARDS
Truly don't have to eat my flesh your saved, My flesh itsn't really you eat, my blood is not something you drink.
again....I can go on and on....
One could believe this might be frustrating......and its not..... Because I don't think anyone can mess up reading everything in the bible backwards if not by some divine intervention.
You know how I know God has a sense of humor? I got to believe he's messing with me.
2 peter 3
16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Hmmmm.... these letters are hard to understand, and if you are untaught or unstable you can distort scripture to your own desctruction. Obviously need to be guided or taught and not jumping around faithwise. Conclusion ...... This must mean SOLA SCRIPTURA is true.
I believe I can go none stop. I really do.
I have verse after verse and if I ever want to know what certain folks believe I just say it BACKWARDS.
Man if I ever had ONE verse backwards I would never hear the end of it from anyone.
I don't have anything backwards. Your inability to both understand and interpret scripture is clearly evident. Start from the last verse I gave: Except a man be born again he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. The Catechism has a heretical interpretation of that verse and if that is what you accept you do also. Only those that are born again have the ability to interpret the Scripture properly, for only they are the children of God.
Only those that are the children of God by means of the new birth have been given the ability to love God and love his neighbor with the Divine love that God has given him. Those that are not born again have not that ability. You have put yourself between a rock and a hard place.
As Jesus said:
You must be born again.
It is an order. You must be born again by the Spirit of God. Unless you are born you neither can love God or man. Three times in one chapter (John 3) did Jesus say, "You must be born again."
If you are not born again you remain unregenerate. Concerning understanding love and all spiritual things, Paul said this about the unregenerate:
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Spiritual things are foolishness to to the one who is not born again, that is, who is unregenerate.
He is spiritually discerned or cannot may spiritual judgments because he remains unregenerate.
The Spirit of God does not dwell in him. He does not have the ability to love with God's love. He cannot return God's love to God, thus the love he says he gives to God is not love at all. God does not recognize the love of the wicked. According to Isa.64:6 that so-called love is just like "filthy rags" to God, only good enough to be thrown away.
You have to demonstrate that I have it backwards. But you can't. What you are doing is showing an inability both to understand and interpret scripture.
Try believing the words of Jesus. Study John 3:1-16. It gives you the answer if you can understand it.
Yes they do; Jesus said that too.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
The message of the RCC also is not of God. It is contrary to the Word of God. It is a message of works like the rest of the religions of the world, not a message of grace and faith as the Bible teaches.
What do you mean "a mercy"? He either forgives you or he doesn't. He has forgiven me of all my sins--past, present and future. That is not only mercy, it is grace.
A good definition of grace is: God's Riches At Christ's Expense.
No, you have it backwards, and it is an impossibility the way that you have stated it.
First, He is speaking to his disciples. Though others gathered, his message is directed to his disciples. The disciples are followers of Christ. Jesus was speaking to them.
The Sermon on the Mount (though many had gathered) has this context:
Matthew 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
--He was teaching his disciples, The Twelve, those who were saved, sanctified, justified, who had all their sins forgiven, etc.
They have the ability to truly forgive when others do not. Why? Christ has forgiven them, forgiven them of a debt so great that no one can ever understand. They have divine forgiveness.
It is never backwards to renounce error.
2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
You will never understand these verses until the Spirit of God dwells in you. They have been explained here many times and you simply reject them. There is nothing backwards but your unbelief in scripture.
God does forgive. He forgives on the basis of the new birth. But the RCC Catechism doesn't know what that means. It redefines it. Therefore you have a problem.
Beautiful! [I always appreciate 'die skone kunste' -- like poetry and prose.] These sublime lines are history, the Story of Redemption finished in and by and through, and for, Jesus Christ.
...a little BIG adjustment, God forgives on the basis of the Reconciliation and Justification through, and in Christ Jesus. It cannot be redefined in any terms of human endeavour or accomplishment.
Protestants generally do not understand yet that water baptism was never conditional for salvation and was never commanded for the church as a means or help or bridge or spring board to eternal life or heaven.
I never even inferred that salvation consists of any "terms of human endeavor or accomplishment."
If you are going to falsely accuse me of such heresy then please quote where I said such first.
A false accusation without evidence is wrong.
The Bible says:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
It is evident that salvation is by grace through faith. Neither grace nor faith are works. Both are necessary for salvation.
The gift that God gives is the New Birth which comes via the Holy Spirit working through God's Word (1Pet.1:23; John 3:5). God creates in us a new man. We become part of his family.
Calm down, mate. I wrote about water baptism; not about saved by works.
Tell me please, DHK, have I really so far on BB explained my faith in Jesus so bad, that it could be mistaken for salvation by or of, <works>?!
And you are cross with me for <accusing you falsely>?!
I think we are both grown ups by now, dear DHK.