Paradise Purgatory - the "other" option

[DHK]

Certainly I have argued that some doctrines in the RCC are in fact error - purgatory being and example of one of them.

They oppose the sola scriptura testing of all doctrine and tradition - and the Jewish leaders of Christ's day appear to have rejected that sola-scriptura-testing idea as we see in Mark 7:6-13.

So also may it be argued that many Jews existed at the time of the Christian church that did not accept Christ as the Messiah. But Paul says Timothy was saved - even before becoming a Christian - as Christ also said about various people around him... and as we see in Hebrews 11 regarding the saints of the OT that did not know about the Carpenter from Nazareth that would come into being one day - the incarnate Son of God. My affirmation is not that doctrinal error is salvific. Rather my claim is that they are saved in spite of doctrinal error -- at least some are saved.

And so some are saved in all denominations - no matter that the denomination has doctrinal error. "To him that knows to do right - and does it not -- to him it is sin". James 4:17 Error does not lead to salvation - but the Holy Spirit does.

Satan can use error to blind the people to the truth - 2 Cor 4:4 - so that when they hear Gospel truth - they will be inclined to reject it.

You are in error in a number of areas.
1. A man can be saved and still be a Jew, for he remained a Jew by his ethnicity, but immediately he gave up the false religion of Judaism. He cannot keep the religion of Judaism and be a Christian at the same time. At the time Paul became a Christian he called Christ, "Lord," the very thing the Jews reject. One cannot reject the Messiah and accept him at the same time.

2. The word "Gentile" simply refers to "other nations." It is all who are not Jews or part of Israel. Of course Timothy was a Gentile. What else would he be? An alien from Mars perhaps?

3. When a person is part of a religion that is opposed to Christianity he cannot be a Christian and be part of that religion at the same time. How many "Islamic Christians" do you know? There are not Christians in Islam. As there are no Christians in Islam there are no Christians in any religion, cult, denomination that denies the message of salvation. One cannot believe two diametrically opposed messages at the same time.

Your post is very confused and has many contradictions in it. So I simply addressed it this way.

 

[BobRyan]

You are in error in a number of areas.
1. A man can be saved and still be a Jew, for he remained a Jew by his ethnicity, but immediately he gave up the false religion of Judaism. He cannot keep the religion of Judaism and be a Christian at the same time. .

1. Paul was a messianic Jew -- so was James.

2. Timothy was lead to salvation by reading the scriptures even before becoming a NT Christian the same way that all the Heb 11 OT saints were saved.

 

[DHK]

1. Paul was a messianic Jew -- so was James.

Contrary to popular belief there is no such thing as a "Messianic Jew."
Either the person is a Christian or he is a Jew. Which one? He cannot be both, just as a Muslim cannot be part Muslim and part Christian. You must decide which one you will be. Both religions oppose each other. One cannot believe Judaism and Christianity at the same time. Judaism is a false religion.

2. Timothy was lead to salvation by reading the scriptures even before becoming a NT Christian the same way that all the Heb 11 OT saints were saved.

He was led to Christ by the Apostle Paul himself. Don't delude yourself. Study the scriptures. It is Christ that saves.

 

[BobRyan]

The idea that Timothy was lost until Paul met him - is contrary to Paul's teaching about Timothy's life..

 

[DHK]

The idea that Timothy was lost until Paul met him - is contrary to Paul's teaching about Timothy's life..

He was a devout Jew. There is nothing in Timothy's life to indicate that he was saved before he met Paul. Demonstrate otherwise.

 

[BobRyan]

2 Tim 3
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.


Faith comes by hearing and hearing the WORD of God - Romans 10

"They all drank from the same Spiritual Rock and that Rock was CHRIST" 1 Cor 10:4

"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"The gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also" Hebrews 4

Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ - in Matt 17

Hebrews 11 - including Enoch who was in heaven at the time.

 

[DHK]

2 Tim 3
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

You do not apply the scriptures properly.
Remember that a false religion always remains a false religion. There are no exceptions.
From your perspective, my acquaintance, a Muslim, who has the entire NT memorized is saved though a devout Muslim. In your opinion he has faith simply because he has memorized or has great knowledge of the Word. You disregard that his "faith" is in Allah, not in Christ.
Just as you disregard that Timothy's faith was in his OT view of Jehovah, not in the NT view of Jesus Christ the Messiah.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the WORD of God

- Romans 10

Faith in who? Allah?

"They all drank from the same Spiritual Rock and that Rock was CHRIST" 1 Cor 10:4

Is the Rock also Allah?

"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

Mohammed also claims to have the truth and many believe in Him. "Belief" is faith.

"The gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also" Hebrews 4

The Muslim is required by his own faith to believe in the gospels.

Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ - in Matt 17

And your point?

Hebrews 11 - including Enoch who was in heaven at the time.

The Muslim believes Mohammed is greater than all the prophets.

So, now what have you demonstrated? nothing.

 

[DHK]

2 Tim 3


Faith comes by hearing and hearing the WORD of God - Romans 10

Faith always has an object. The Holy Spirit works through the living Word and points us to Christ.
The object of our faith is Christ. It is Christ that saves. Faith in Christ and faith alone in Christ saves.

There are some that would read "The Great Controversy," and put their faith in the author of the book, EGW. But faith in the author, will fail them. She is but a woman, dead, and can do nothing for them. The book is not inspired, has many errors in it, and is not of God. Faith in that book or its author does not save. It may produce faith. The more one reads the more faith the person will have in the book. But it won't bring them salvation.
Salvation is only through Christ, and the price he paid on the cross--His shed blood. It was paid once for all. The atonement is finished. He said: "It is finished." There is no atonement still continuing. All our sin is paid for, covered by the blood. Salvation is a free gift offered to all but accepted only by some, and rejected by many (unfortunately).

 

[utilyan]

Faith always has an object. The Holy Spirit works through the living Word and points us to Christ.
The object of our faith is Christ. It is Christ that saves. Faith in Christ and faith alone in Christ saves.

There are some that would read "The Great Controversy," and put their faith in the author of the book, EGW. But faith in the author, will fail them. She is but a woman, dead, and can do nothing for them. The book is not inspired, has many errors in it, and is not of God. Faith in that book or its author does not save. It may produce faith. The more one reads the more faith the person will have in the book. But it won't bring them salvation.
Salvation is only through Christ, and the price he paid on the cross--His shed blood. It was paid once for all. The atonement is finished. He said: "It is finished." There is no atonement still continuing. All our sin is paid for, covered by the blood. Salvation is a free gift offered to all but accepted only by some, and rejected by many (unfortunately).

I would argue SDA have a clear distinct advantage over you in that they can claim to be directed by the Holy Spirit through the prophet in the INFALLIBLE identification of scripture and its interpretation.


Meanwhile anyone can be a independent for every flavor and combination of doctrine known to man. I don't have to do what you say cuz the bible is the boss. With one holy spirit claiming "yes", the other says "no", Dogs and Cats living together, mass hysteria.

DHK your position is ONE where even a majority of your own disagree with you to the point you guys can't even acknowledge each other. Just one disorganized mess. Those guys are too liberal.....THOSE ARE YOUR LIBERALS! That is your peoples, your mess working in action.

I'm a 2nd independent, evangelical, charismatic, Calvinist, Cyborg, North West, womens only, Baptist church of America...

Yes that's the church Jesus Christ started.....



If I need to find out what SDA believe I can go to their website and get their interpretation.

If I need to find out what you believe, I can take a dice or flip a coin, WHO KNOWS?........You can't even identify ONE LIVING PERSON who has scripture correct.

ANOTHER last independent Saint on earth.....

Even the GNOSTICS have website that explain their view, DHK you have NOTHING. One day your a Calvinist the other day your not.

 

[DHK]

I would argue SDA have a clear distinct advantage over you in that they can claim to be directed by the Holy Spirit through the prophet in the INFALLIBLE identification of scripture and its interpretation.

Anyone can make that claim.
An example:

In July of last year, Hillary Clinton gave an interview to New York Times reporter Michael Luo about her faith. It's a fairly in depth interview.
Hillary Clinton: "I believe in the father, son, and Holy Spirit, and I have felt the presence of the Holy Spirit on many occasions in my years on this earth."

http://www1.cbn.com/thebrodyfile/ar...y-i-have-felt-the-presence-of-the-holy-spirit
Do you believe her, given her track record?

Meanwhile anyone can be a independent for every flavor and combination of doctrine known to man. I don't have to do what you say cuz the bible is the boss. With one holy spirit claiming "yes", the other says "no", Dogs and Cats living together, mass hysteria.

Independent means independent. Learn that.
The Corinthian Church was an independent church, and from chapter five and other places we know that it had a problem with immorality and other vices. It was a carnal church.
The Philippian Church was independent of the Corinthian church and all other churches. It was completely different--a different character, a different make-up, etc. The epistles were completely different and written for a different purpose for the churches were completely different and independent of each other, as was the church at Jerusalem.

DHK your position is ONE where even a majority of your own disagree with you to the point you guys can't even acknowledge each other. Just one disorganized mess. Those guys are too liberal.....THOSE ARE YOUR LIBERALS! That is your peoples, your mess working in action.

Again, I suggest you learn the meaning of the word, "independent."
I am not responsible for other churches and what they believe or do. That is up to them. The church at Philippi was not responsible for the errors of the church at Corinth. The members of Corinth will stand before God and give account, each one of them, for their own deeds, whether good or bad. Concerning salvation however, their sins are already paid for.

I'm a 2nd independent, evangelical, charismatic, Calvinist, Cyborg, North West, womens only, Baptist church of America...

You can be whatever you want to. Be a Hindu. Be a Catholic. Both are related.
Both believe the mystical mysterious superstitious metaphysical water of their respective religion will somehow wash away their sins. Pure garbage! Jeremiah condemned that teaching long ago:

Jeremiah 2:22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.
--So wash yourself with water, or have it poured or sprinkled over; as for me my sins are washed by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ (1John 1:7)

Yes that's the church Jesus Christ started.....

To be accurate Jesus didn't start a church but left his disciples with a Great Commission and sent them out to start churches, of which he would be the head of each and every one. There is no such thing as "The Church," (universal). The underlying Greek word, ekklesia, means assembly or congregation.

If I need to find out what SDA believe I can go to their website and get their interpretation.

True.

If I need to find out what you believe, I can take a dice or flip a coin, WHO KNOWS?........You can't even identify ONE LIVING PERSON who has scripture correct.

If you want a good idea what we believe then do a search. "Independent Fundamental Churches." Yes, you will find some differences. We are independent after all. Look at the statements of faith and see what we have in common.

ANOTHER last independent Saint on earth.....

Who?

Even the GNOSTICS have website that explain their view, DHK you have NOTHING. One day your a Calvinist the other day your not.

The Gnostics? Is that the other branch of the Catholics. Do you know that in Islam that there are at least 87 different sects? I look at the RCC as being the same way? Each time you look there is another sect, another division. Soon you will outnumber the Protestants.

 

[BobRyan]

2 Tim 3
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.


Faith comes by hearing and hearing the WORD of God - Romans 10

"They all drank from the same Spiritual Rock and that Rock was CHRIST" 1 Cor 10:4

"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"The gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also" Hebrews 4

Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ - in Matt 17

Hebrews 11 - including Enoch who was in heaven at the time.

Faith always has an object. The Holy Spirit works through the living Word and points us to Christ.
The object of our faith is Christ. It is Christ that saves. Faith in Christ and faith alone in Christ saves.

I think we can all agree.

And as Christ said "Abraham SAW My day and was glad" - John 8.
"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7
And Moses "considered the sufferings of CHRIST greater riches than all of pharaoh's house" Heb 11
"The gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also" Hebrews 4

There are some that would read "The Great Controversy," and put their faith in the author of the book, .

Your lack of focus on the subject just then --- is remarkable.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

2 Tim 3
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.


Faith comes by hearing and hearing the WORD of God - Romans 10

"They all drank from the same Spiritual Rock and that Rock was CHRIST" 1 Cor 10:4

"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"The gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also" Hebrews 4

Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ - in Matt 17

Hebrews 11 - including Enoch who was in heaven at the time.

You do not apply the scriptures properly.
Remember that a false religion always remains a false religion.

The mere quote of the text was sufficient cause to give rise to your strong objection.

That is "instructive" to the unbiased objective reader.

From your perspective, my acquaintance, a Muslim, who has the entire NT memorized is saved though a devout Muslim. In your opinion he has faith simply because he has memorized or has great knowledge of the Word.

Which Bible verse quoted above in my post leads you to that conclusion?

Just as you disregard that Timothy's faith was in his OT view of Jehovah, not in the NT view of Jesus Christ the Messiah.

This is you -- attacking Paul again -- since it is your response to --

2 Tim 3
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

 

[DHK]

Which Bible verse quoted above in my post leads you to that conclusion?

You quote scripture and don't understand what you quoted as evidenced in this post.

This is you -- attacking Paul again -- since it is your response to --

2 Tim 3
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

First, I never attacked Paul. Don't accuse falsely.
Second, it is obvious you either are not reading this correctly or don't understand it.

The part put in read says "...wisdom that leads to salvation through faith..."
It does not say "...wisdom that gives salvation..." Understand what it is saying.
When Paul met Timothy, Timothy was the son of a Greek man, that is a Gentile, who was hard-headed and would not permit him to be circumcised. For this reason he was not considered a Jew. He was not circumcised and his father was a Greek. To enter into the Temple as such, he would defile it. Thus it was necessary for Paul to take him and circumcise him.
He was brought up in the Jewish faith, the faith that his mother and grandmother had. But it is evident that the father was not the spiritual head of the family. He was fortunate to have a godly mother to teach him the OT scriptures. But that does not mean that he was introduced to Christ, and why would you assume that?
It was Paul, the missionary, that was bringing the message of the gospel, the saving power of Christ, into this area just at this time for the first time. When Paul met them, it is no doubt the first time that they heard the gospel. Judaism does not save! It is a false religion. Only Christs can save.

First, Paul meets Timothy in the area of Lystra and Derbe:
Acts 16:1 Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:
2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.
--In verse one, the mother of Timothy was a believer. It is more clear in the ESV
(ESV) Paul came also to Derbe and to Lystra. A disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek.

2Tim.1:5 says:
(ESV) I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice and now, I am sure, dwells in you as well.
--Paul had been in Lystra before. He had met Timothy before. Here he is reminded of the time before, the first time that he met Timothy when he noticed that "sincere faith," the same kind of faith that was evidenced in his mother and grandmother. It has nothing to do with salvation.

Act 14:5 And when there was an assault made both of the Gentiles, and also of the Jews with their rulers, to use them despitefully, and to stone them,
Act 14:6 They were ware of it, and fled unto Lystra and Derbe, cities of Lycaonia, and unto the region that lieth round about:
Act 14:7 And there they preached the gospel.
--This is the home of Timothy. It is likely that Paul first met him here, and that 2Tim.1:5 is looking back to this time.

Look at the language that Paul uses here:
1 Timothy 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
--The wording here is indicative that Paul led Timothy to the Lord. Timothy was his son in the faith.

 

[BobRyan]

2 Tim 3
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.


Faith comes by hearing and hearing the WORD of God - Romans 10

"They all drank from the same Spiritual Rock and that Rock was CHRIST" 1 Cor 10:4

"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"The gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also" Hebrews 4

Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ - in Matt 17

Hebrews 11 - including Enoch who was in heaven at the time.

DHK said: ↑
You do not apply the scriptures properly.
Remember that a false religion always remains a false religion.

On the contrary - the mere quote of the text was sufficient cause to give rise to your strong objection.

That is "instructive" to the unbiased objective reader.

DHK said: ↑
From your perspective, my acquaintance, a Muslim, who has the entire NT memorized is saved though a devout Muslim. In your opinion he has faith simply because he has memorized or has great knowledge of the Word.

Which Bible verse quoted above in my post leads you to that conclusion?

DHK said: ↑
Just as you disregard that Timothy's faith was in his OT view of Jehovah, not in the NT view of Jesus Christ the Messiah.

This is you -- attacking Paul again -- since it is your response to --

2 Tim 3
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.


-- the point remains.

You quote scripture and don't understand what you quoted as evidenced in this post.

Empty accusation... 'again'

The part put in read says "...wisdom that leads to salvation through faith..."
It does not say "...wisdom that gives salvation..."

Hint - Hebrews 11 - and Matt 17 -- Enoch "in heaven" ... Moses AND Elijah - in glorified form with Christ - all of it pre-cross.

Try again.

Your false gospel claims that everyone was lost before the cross - including Timothy lost until Paul shows up.


Acts 16:
2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.
--In verse one, the mother of Timothy was a believer. It is more clear in the ESV
(ESV) Paul came also to Derbe and to Lystra. A disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek.

(Jew - vs Greek.... not Christian vs Greek, because Greeks can be Christian as Apollos demonstrates)

2Tim.1:5 says:
(ESV) I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice and now, I am sure, dwells in you as well.

--Paul had been in Lystra before. He had met Timothy before. Here he is reminded of the time before, the first time that he met Timothy

Nope.

The first time Paul meets them is on his first missionary journey -- when he was stoned and left for dead in Lystra.

Try again.

 

[DHK]

2 Tim 3
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.


Faith comes by hearing and hearing the WORD of God - Romans 10

What is your point here?
I am a missionary/teacher. I feel like we should have a quiz. Please underline the correct answer according to the premise you have given.

a. That all who have heard the word are saved.
b. That all who have heard much of the Word are saved.
c. That the gentleman that I know, husband of saved lady, who has not trusted Christ, but has come to church for the last 20 years faithfully with his family is saved because he has heard the Word.
d. That the Muslim who has the Word, in fact the entire NT memorized must be saved, because "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God."

Which answer is correct? Why do you keep posting the above? I got saved at the age of 20. I also heard the Word previous to that. The mere hearing of God's Word does not cause him to be saved.

"They all drank from the same Spiritual Rock and that Rock was CHRIST" 1 Cor 10:4

"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"The gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also" Hebrews 4

Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ - in Matt 17

Hebrews 11 - including Enoch who was in heaven at the time.

And your point? So what! What are you trying to demonstrate. Congratulations! You know how to post scripture. We all do. So do my grandchildren. What is the point here?

On the contrary - the mere quote of the text was sufficient cause to give rise to your strong objection.

That is "instructive" to the unbiased objective reader.

What is instructive? I said: "A false religion remains a false religion. How can you disagree?
Do you think that your posting of scripture, or even quoting it is going to change any of that?
A man who is a Jew or a Muslim is not going to change just because some scripture is thrown at him. Remember the Muslim had the entire NT memorized. Why didn't he have the faith to believe. Your premise and reasoning is all wrong.
Jesus said "Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.
The problem was and is, these men were not born again.

Which Bible verse quoted above in my post leads you to that conclusion?

Romans 10:17. The mere acquaintance with the Word of God does not save a person. It didn't save the Muslim, and didn't save Timothy. The evidence that I gave you shows that Paul led Timothy to the Lord. Timothy was brought up in a Gentile household, a household where his Father was a Greek.

This is you -- attacking Paul again -- since it is your response to --

Because I quote the Word of God, you say I am attacking Paul.
You need to repent.

2 Tim 3
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.


-- the point remains.

What point remains? As I said, the point you made is your fantastic ability to copy and paste scripture, something my young grandchildren can do. No other point was made.

Empty accusation... 'again'

It is not an empty accusation when you look at what you just posted.
I had said: "You quote scripture and don't understand what you quoted as evidenced in this post."
--Isn't that right? Your mere quoting of scripture without explanation demonstrates your failure to understand what you are posting.

Hint - Hebrews 11 - and Matt 17 -- Enoch "in heaven" ... Moses AND Elijah - in glorified form with Christ - all of it pre-cross.

Try again.

Your false gospel claims that everyone was lost before the cross - including Timothy lost until Paul shows up.

1. I don't have a false gospel.
2. I never said anything about the above individuals therefore you inferred accusation is wrong.
3. The subject is Timothy not Enoch, etc.
4. There is no evidence to believe that Timothy was already saved either in Acts 16:1 or in his own household when growing up. The scripture you quote doesn't say that.

Acts 16:
2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.
--In verse one, the mother of Timothy was a believer. It is more clear in the ESV
(ESV) Paul came also to Derbe and to Lystra. A disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek.

(Jew - vs Greek.... not Christian vs Greek, because Greeks can be Christian as Apollos demonstrates)

2Tim.1:5 says:
(ESV) I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice and now, I am sure, dwells in you as well.

Nope.

What do you mean "Nope." Don't "Nope" me unless you have the evidence to prove me wrong.
Paul was in Lystra on his first missionary tour, quite some time previous to Acts 16. I quoted the passage for you in Acts 14. Most commentators agree with this.

The first time Paul meets them is on his first missionary journey -- when he was stoned and left for dead in Lystra.

Try again.

That is what I said. Acts 16 is not his first missionary journey.
Here is the end of the first missionary journey:

Acts 14:25 And when they had preached the word in Perga, they went down into Attalia:
26 And thence sailed to Antioch, from whence they had been recommended to the grace of God for the work which they fulfilled.
27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.
28 And there they abode long time with the disciples.

The Jerusalem Council was in chapter 15.
In the latter part of chapter 15 they begin their second missionary as they are sent forth from the church with the message that the church had given concerning the Gentiles in relation to the Judaizers.
Acts 15:36 And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, and see how they do.
--This is the beginning of the Second missionary journey and in chapter 16, Paul meets Timothy for the second time.

 

[BobRyan]

2 Tim 3
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.


Faith comes by hearing and hearing the WORD of God - Romans 10

"They all drank from the same Spiritual Rock and that Rock was CHRIST" 1 Cor 10:4

"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"The gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also" Hebrews 4

Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ - in Matt 17

Hebrews 11 - including Enoch who was in heaven at the time.


note - the mere quote of the 2 Tim 3 text was sufficient cause to give rise to your strong objection.

That is "instructive" to the unbiased objective reader.

On Paul's SECOND missionary Journey -

Acts 16:
2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.
--
(ESV) Paul came also to Derbe and to Lystra. A disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek.

16 Paul came also to Derbe and to Lystra. And a disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek, 2 and he was well spoken of by the brethren who were in Lystra and Iconium. 3 Paul wanted this man to go with him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those parts, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.

(Jew - vs Greek.... not Christian vs Greek, because Greeks can be Christian as Apollos demonstrates)

2Tim.1:5 says:
(ESV) I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice and now, I am sure, dwells in you as well.

5 For I am mindful of the sincere faith within you, which first dwelt in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am sure that it is in you as well. 6 For this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands.


2 Tim 3
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

The text does not say that from childhood Timothy knew Christ.

The first time Paul meets Timothy is on his first missionary journey -- when he was stoned and left for dead in Lystra.

 

[BobRyan]

So now the first missionary journey - where Timothy becomes a believer -

Acts 14
4 But the people of the city were divided; and some sided with the Jews, and some with the apostles. 5 And when an attempt was made by both the Gentiles and the Jews with their rulers, to mistreat and to stone them, 6 they became aware of it and fled to the cities of Lycaonia, Lystra and Derbe, and the surrounding region; 7 and there they continued to preach the gospel.

8 At Lystra a man was sitting who had no strength in his feet, lame from his mother’s womb, who had never walked. 9 This man was listening to Paul as he spoke, who, when he had fixed his gaze on him and had seen that he had faith to be made well, 10 said with a loud voice, “Stand upright on your feet.” And he leaped up and began to walk. 11 When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they raised their voice, saying in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have become like men and have come down to us.” 12 And they began calling Barnabas, Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker. 13 The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, and wanted to offer sacrifice with the crowds. 14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same nature as you, and preach the gospel to you that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them. 16 In the generations gone by He permitted all the nations to go their own ways; 17 and yet He did not leave Himself without witness, in that He did good and gave you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness.” 18 Even saying these things, with difficulty they restrained the crowds from offering sacrifice to them.

19 But Jews came from Antioch and Iconium, and having won over the crowds, they stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, supposing him to be dead. 20 But while the disciples stood around him, he got up and entered the city. The next day he went away with Barnabas to Derbe. 21 After they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, “Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.” 23 When they had appointed elders for them in every church, having prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

What is your point here?
.

The point is that Timothy was only lately converted. as we see in the example above.

But in 2Tim 3 it is "from childhood" that Timothy is saved.

2 Tim 3
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

The text does not say that from childhood Timothy knew Christ.

That is what I said. Acts 16 is not his first missionary journey.
Here is the end of the first missionary journey:

Acts 14:25 And when they had preached the word in Perga, they went down into Attalia:
26 And thence sailed to Antioch, from whence they had been recommended to the grace of God for the work which they fulfilled.
27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.
28 And there they abode long time with the disciples.
.

Indeed it is not. Acts 14 Timothy becomes a Christian - Acts 16 Timothy joins Paul in ministry.

BUT FROM Chilldhood - 2Tim 3 states that Timothy was saved.

Just like so many others before hearing the NT news about the life of Christ.



Faith comes by hearing and hearing the WORD of God - Romans 10

"They all drank from the same Spiritual Rock and that Rock was CHRIST" 1 Cor 10:4

"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"The gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also" Hebrews 4

Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ - in Matt 17

Hebrews 11 - including Enoch who was in heaven at the time.

 

[DHK]

The point is that Timothy was only lately converted. as we see in the example above.

But in 2Tim 3 it is "from childhood" that Timothy is saved.


Indeed it is not. Acts 14 Timothy becomes a Christian - Acts 16 Timothy joins Paul in ministry.

BUT FROM Chilldhood - 2Tim 3 states that Timothy was saved.

Just like so many others before hearing the NT news about the life of Christ.

"The gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also" Hebrews 4

Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ - in Matt 17

Hebrews 11 - including Enoch who was in heaven at the time.

So what do we have here? A number of contradictory statements.

1. Timothy was lately or recently converted.
2. Timothy was converted in his childhood.
3. Timothy was converted when Paul first went to Lystra in Acts 14.
4. Timothy was converted because Moses and Elijah stood with Christ and because Enoch is in heaven!
--Are these your personal views or do they come from the SDA??

 

[BobRyan]

So what do we have here? A number of contradictory statements.

1. Timothy was lately or recently converted.

As already noted in Acts 14 and 16.

2. Timothy was saved in his childhood just as we see the saved pre-cross saints of Hebrews 11 - some of them IN heaven pre-cross as Hebrews 11 points out and as we see in Matt 17.
.
3. Timothy was converted to Christianity when Paul first went to Lystra in Acts 14.

4. Timothy was saved as a Jew precross -- just as all of them in Hebrews 11. And we see living proof the "one-gospel" precross salvation in the case case of Moses and Elijah who stood with Christ and also noticing the "Bible detail" that Enoch was in heaven - Gen 5 -- precross. So als admitted in Hebrews 11.

--Are these your personal views

They are the Bible - your opposition to the text... noted. But it leaves you stuck with what Paul calls "another gospel". You have one in the OT and a very different one in the NT -- But Paul argues in Gal 1:6-9 that such two-gospel models are false doctrine.

But we all already knew that - right?


Peter asks for full water baptism before the cross - at the last supper and Christ said that he was already clean - that his prior full water baptism already sufficed and all he needed was the foot washing service.

flaws-and-all yet Peter was a saved saint and did not need full water baptism at the time of the last supper.

 

[DHK]

As already noted in Acts 14 and 16.

2. Timothy was saved in his childhood just as we see the saved pre-cross saints of Hebrews 11 - some of them IN heaven pre-cross as Hebrews 11 points out and as we see in Matt 17.
.
3. Timothy was converted to Christianity when Paul first went to Lystra in Acts 14.

4. Timothy was saved as a Jew precross -- just as all of them in Hebrews 11. And we see living proof the "one-gospel" precross salvation in the case case of Moses and Elijah who stood with Christ and also noticing the "Bible detail" that Enoch was in heaven - Gen 5 -- precross. So als admitted in Hebrews 11.

You don't seem to understand or comprehend that everyone of your statements contradict each other. Let me list them again:

So what do we have here? A number of contradictory statements.

1. Timothy was lately or recently converted.
2. Timothy was converted in his childhood.
3. Timothy was converted when Paul first went to Lystra in Acts 14.
4. Timothy was converted because Moses and Elijah stood with Christ and because Enoch is in heaven!

And yet you repeat them as if there is no contradiction. Unbelievable!
One by one:

1. Timothy was lately or recently converted.

As already noted in Acts 14 and 16.

Acts 14 is Paul' first missionary journey and chapter 16 his second. If he was saved in chapter 14, which is likely, then he was not recently converted.

2. Timothy was saved in his childhood just as we see the saved pre-cross saints of Hebrews 11 - some of them IN heaven pre-cross as Hebrews 11 points out and as we see in Matt 17.

This is a contradiction of the above. If he was saved in ch.14 or 16, that is as a young man, then he was not saved in his childhood. Why the obvious contradiction? And what has this to do with pre-cross? I never brought this subject up. You did. What red herring or tangent are you going down with this. It is just another rabbit trail or hobby horse of yours.

3. Timothy was converted to Christianity when Paul first went to Lystra in Acts 14.

You are back to your first statement but again contradicting statement # 2. Timothy can only have one salvation. He was not born again and again and again.
I can agree with this statement. But it contradicts the others you have made.

4. Timothy was saved as a Jew precross -- just as all of them in Hebrews 11. And we see living proof the "one-gospel" precross salvation in the case case of Moses and Elijah who stood with Christ and also noticing the "Bible detail" that Enoch was in heaven - Gen 5 -- precross. So als admitted in Hebrews 11.

You are wrong here. Just because he had a Jewish mother doesn't make him Jewish.
He had a Greek father, who was the head of the household. His father would not permit him to be circumcised. Without circumcision he was not a Jew, but rather a Gentile, descent coming from his father, as genealogies always do. You have no legitimate argument against this. Timothy was not allowed in the Temple or the synagogue. He was not circumcised. He was not considered a Jew by the community.
He was not saved "pre-cross." Where is your evidence. You have none.
Moses, Elijah, etc. have nothing to do with this conversation. They are all red herrings. Why do you bring them into this conversation? What does Moses, having lived 4,000 years before Timothy, have any thing to do with Timothy's salvation? It doesn't! It has absolutely no bearing on it.
Thus all your previous statements have contradicted each other.
Four statements, and they all contradict each other. You can't see that?

They are the Bible - your opposition to the text... noted. But it leaves you stuck with what Paul calls "another gospel". You have one in the OT and a very different one in the NT -- But Paul argues in Gal 1:6-9 that such two-gospel models are false doctrine.

There are lots of things in the Bible that are not relevant to the subject that we are speaking about. The condemnation of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5 or the immorality of the immoral church member in 1Cor.5 are in the Bible but have nothing to do with Timothy's salvation. They are Bible facts.
You are the one opposed to the facts of the context of Timothy's salvation, continuing to go on different rabbit trails, allowing the Bible to contradict itself. Yes, "we all knew that," right?

But we all already knew that - right?

Just as I said above--Your rabbit trails--we all knew that.

Peter asks for full water baptism before the cross - at the last supper and Christ said that he was already clean - that his prior full water baptism already sufficed and all he needed was the foot washing service.

Remember we are speaking about the salvation of Timothy.
So, give me chapter and verse where Peter asks for the baptism of Timothy, or is this just another rabbit trail. I think the latter is true.

flaws-and-all yet Peter was a saved saint and did not need full water baptism at the time of the last supper.

When did I say he did. You are on another rabbit trail, and can't stay on topic.
What has this to do with the salvation of Timothy? Nothing!