Part 2: OK... I still have these nagging questions:

And the plot thickens!!!!
WHere is webdog when you need him to tell us ......the rest of the story......?

 

That man was never really an employee to begin with!

 

I find it very telling to see things like this:

Rufus_1611 (ME)
Rufus_1611 (ME)
Hope of Glory (ME)
Hope of Glory (ME)
(DHK response)
Accountable (ME)
Accountable (ME)
Accountable (ME)
Accountable (ME)
Accountable (ME)
James_Newman (ME)
(npetreley)
Accountable (ME)
James_Newman (ME)
Accountable (ME)
Accountable (ME)
Rufus_1611 (ME)

The ME folk are getting so desperate, they're going "postal".

.

 

He must have snuck in unaware. Hey, I bet he didn't even try to look like the others by putting on an employee uniform. Maybe that's how they found him out! He wasn't properly dressed.

 

He just kept calling the boss 'boss' during his review like he was actually working there. What a nut!

 

Sorry A.B.,
I had to go feed my family. Just catching up!

 

:laugh: Still somehow at the end..... they all lived happily ever after. The end.

 

Your mother is calling you...I think she said something about SpongeBob Squarepants starting in a few minutes.

 

Don't say that I am misquoting you, becausing I am not.
You have just stated again that salvation is by works; it is doing stuff.
To be born again is to be saved. It is the message of salvation and has nothing to do with the literal kingdom. You have taken this verse out of context so many times it is sickening. Examine the book of John for a minute and then re-consider.
First look at the key verse which gives us the theme of the book:

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

What is written in this book is written that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, and that believing you might have eternal life. There is the theme of this book. It is a message that is written to the world. It is universal in its scope. It is not a kingdom message.
Only five times in these 21 chapters is the word "kingdom" found.
Twice it is found when Jesus is talking to Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.

Then three times it is found here:
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

It is evident that Jesus was not speaking of his kingdom, not throughout the book, and not even to Nicodemus. He said so. His teaching was not based on the kingdom. Will you take him at his word. This one verse should be enough to shoot down your interpretation of John 3.

What does it mean then in John 3:3,5?
He only used the word "kingdom" because he was talking to a Jew, to relate to Nicodemus (a Jew) what one should do to be saved. The Jews related to the word "kingdom" better than the word heaven or other "heavenly terminology." Yet you are allowing this term to become a stumbling block in your own religion.

The very question that Nicodemus asks at the beginning intimates that he wants to know more about spiritual things, especially in the light of eternal life, salvation; not necessarily the kingdom. Nicodemus, by profuse study of the OT knew all about the kingdom. But he didn't know beans about how to be born again--a NT concept. Thus the rebuke from Jesus:
John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
--Nicodemus would not have received that rebuke if Jesus was talking about the MK, which Nicodemus knew all about.

Three times Jesus said: You must be born again. The emphasis is on being born again--not the kingdom.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
There are two types of birth, Jesus says: a fleshly (or physical birth, and a spiritual birth). We are all born physically into this world. But not every one is born spiritually. Nicodemus: you must be born again.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
--There are only two agents mentioned here by which a man is born again: water and the Spirit. We all know what the Spirit is--the Holy Spirit. Every man must be born again of the Holy Spirit. But the question is what does the "water" represent.
The Catholics say it is baptism, making it mean baptismal regeneration. But that is heresy and salvation by works. It does not mean baptism.
Some say it means the water (physically) as in the amniotic fluid of a mother. That would be a straight literal interpretation, and it is a plausible explanation.
But I believe there is yet a better explanation.
I beleive the water is represenetative of the Word of God.
What is water normally used for? Its normal use is for washing.

John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
--Jesus washes us through His word.

There are two agents by which a man is born again--water and the Spirit.
James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
--James says that a man is "begotten" with the "word of truth" i.e., the Word of God. We are born again through the Word of God: Two agents--water and the Spirit--the Word of God and the Spirit.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
--Here it is very clear. We are born again of the Word of God. One cannot argue with this Scripture. Water is representative of the Word of God.
Salvation comes by hearing the Word of God, and by conviction of the Holy Spirit. It is by those two agents that a man must be saved. He cannot be saved without either one. He cannot be saved without the message of the gospel (the Word of God); neither can he be saved without the Spirit of God.
Thus the water and the Spirit are representative of the Word of God and the Spirit of God.
They have nothing to do with entrance into the literal kingdom of God as in the MK. Jesus only used that term to relate to a Jew.

 

Rufus_1611 (ME)
Rufus_1611 (ME)
Hope of Glory (ME)
Hope of Glory (ME)
(DHK response)
Accountable (ME)
Accountable (ME)
Accountable (ME)
Accountable (ME)
Accountable (ME)
James_Newman (ME)
(npetreley)
Accountable (ME)
James_Newman (ME)
Accountable (ME)
Accountable (ME)
Rufus_1611 (ME)
(DHK)
Accountable (ME)
(npetreley)
Rufus_1611 (ME)

And when you debate, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many posts.

:laugh:

 

That's excellent counsel from someone who posted the exact same post three times so that it would remain visible. When does school start up again?

 

Well, that is the absolute truth...."kingdom truths" (as you call it), is definitely not part of the gospel of grace as there is NO grace involved in that teaching.

I believe what Paul taught, that we are saved by GRACE apart from works.

Paul never said you are saved by grace except for that pesky 1000 years that you have to spend in hell getting tortured for all those sins that didn't get taken care of on the cross.

 

I most certainly have not!

Never, one single time in my entire life, have I ever said such a thing.

I said that an entrance into the coming Kingdom is based on doing stuff.

It's right there in black and white, and yet you will continue to try to lie!

Why not try to argue from truth? Is it because your ideas are so vacuous that there it no truth, so you must be untruthful? Why not debate from what is stated instead of your misrepresentations of the truth?

If you were honest, you would say, "Well, I think they are the same thing because..."

Instead, you have to resort to lieing! I wonder why?

 

Don't let them duck this. They have clearly said there are three or more salvations, and that salvation of the soul is by works. They will be lying to deny it at this point.

 

I don't appreciate the slander and false accusations HOG. I quoted you word for word. Here it is again:
Originally Posted by Hope of Glory

Now go to my post where I explained what John 3:3,5 really means. Read it carefully, and then come back for a decent rebuttal and not a lot of emotional accusation. Until you can do that I will not listen to your emotional ranting and ravings.

 

Please not this again.

 

The best way to end this debate is for all the Mercy Eliminated proponents to admit they were wrong and were not rightly dividing the Word of God and then to bow out gracefully.

 

Who denied soul salvation?
We are clearly dealing with spiritual salvation on this issue not being based upon works.

 

Well, let's see if you did. Here's what you claim that I said:

Here is a copy and pasted quote of what I said:

Works are involved to enter the Kingdom, not to get saved (born from above).

I've never said that we work to earn getting born into the family. In fact, I vehemently deny it when SFIC claims that our salvation is based on our works. (Hmm... I wonder why he's given a free pass when he claims that our salvation is based upon our works, but you have to say that I said something that I didn't say, then attack me for it?)

"See" and "enter" are not synonymous in any language.

All who are born from above (spiritually saved) will see the Kingdom.

Not all who are born from above (spiritually saved) will enter the Kingdom.

We are spiritually saved by believing on the Lord Jesus. Plus nothing. Nothing to earn it, maintain it, or prove it.

It's like the Children of Israel. They were in the Promised Land before they even stepped foot outside their doors. They were in the family. They were saved (in type). They had to do nothing, other than be born into the family to receive this promise.

But, they had to follow in baptism, and continue in faithfulness to receive the reward of the land of Canaan (The Land Flowing with Milk and Honey). They had to do stuff (be baptized and be faithful) to receive the kingdom.