Part 2: OK... I still have these nagging questions:

[Rufus_1611]

I suggest we start another thread called something like "christians insulting other christians" and let this one be limited to making doctrinal arguments so we don't have to sift through all the insults to get to the "meat".

Les

Not a bad idea.

 

[Amy.G]

We had a whole thread on the very subject and I don't recall one person making a scriptural argument for the idea that God's chastening is only allowed for the purpose of correction.

1 Thessalonians 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

What is an avenger?

One who carries out justice.

We have already established that God disciplines His children in this life. God ONLY disciplines His OWN for the purpose of conforming them to HIS will.

He does not discpline those that don't belong to Him. They await judgement and eternal death.

Why would He discipline a child after he dies and has shed the corruptible? What is the purpose of that?

 

[James_Newman]

One who carries out justice.

So Paul warns us not to defraud our brethren because God will carry out justice upon us if we do. Justice is a valid purpose for God's chastisement.

We have already established that God disciplines His children in this life. God ONLY disciplines His OWN for the purpose of conforming them to HIS will.

No, God is just and he is an avenger.

He does not discpline those that don't belong to Him. They await judgement and eternal death.

Why would He discipline a child after he dies and has shed the corruptible? What is the purpose of that?

Its justice.

 

[Amy.G]

If what you say is true, then the most loving thing God could do would be kill us all now and get it over with. What would be the purpose of making his children suffer in this life when once we die everything is made all better and there is nothing coming that we must suffer for?

Is the alternative to this thought that God leaves us here to make a whole bunch of mistakes so He can punish us later for 1000 years?

I think the best solution is to make a deathbed confession so as to avoid being burned for 1000 years for all those "sins" that the blood didn't cover. Then you would go straight on into the kingdom and rule and reign like Judas.

 

[James_Newman]

Is the alternative to this thought that God leaves us here to make a whole bunch of mistakes so He can punish us later for 1000 years?

There you go again. Why not say His purpose is for us to do right so He can reward us for a thousand years with a crown in His kingdom?

I think the best solution is to make a deathbed confession so as to avoid being burned for 1000 years for all those "sins" that the blood didn't cover. Then you would go straight on into the kingdom and rule and reign like Judas.

I suppose, as long as you're sure you're going to get a death bed. I don't think most folks get that luxury. Better to hope in God's mercy and just do right while we have breath in us.

 

[Amy.G]

James, I think you are confusing discipline with justice. They are not the same thing. Justice was carried out on the cross. We have been declared righteous "in Christ" through our faith.
Afterwards, the discipline takes place to conform us to God's will and purpose for our lives.
It's the same reason that you discipline your own children. You are not carrying out justice when you spank them. You want them to change and do things YOUR way because you know what's best for them. It is for their own good.

But once you die, there is no more chance to change. It' done. There is no point to discipline as you will have left your sinful flesh in the grave.

 

[James_Newman]

James, I think you are confusing discipline with justice. They are not the same thing. Justice was carried out on the cross. We have been declared righteous "in Christ" through our faith.
Afterwards, the discipline takes place to conform us to God's will and purpose for our lives.
It's the same reason that you discipline your own children. You are not carrying out justice when you spank them. You want them to change and do things YOUR way because you know what's best for them. It is for their own good.

But once you die, there is no more chance to change. It' done. There is no point to discipline as you will have left your sinful flesh in the grave.

But you just told me that the avenger was one who carried out justice. If all justice was carried out on the cross, why are we warned not to defraud our brethren and that God is the avenger? If I discipline my children for their actions, is it unjust? Then how can you say I am not carrying out justice?

Hebrews 2:2
2 For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward;

Now tell me, is it just for Christ to give the same reward to every believer, when He has promised the reward to those who suffer for it?

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

 

[DHK]

Originally Posted by Mike Berzins
Why do you think a believer can temporarily suffer consequences for his sin in this life, and that does not negate the sufficiency of the blood of Christ, yet if one says that a believer temporarily suffers consequences for sin in the millennium, that means that one is somehow denying the sufficiency of the blood of Christ?

This is the question that I have never seen answered.

This question has been answered over and over again.
Why did Christ leave his throne of glory and come to this earth.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
--"This world" that Christ died for is the world in its present state, not the MK.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
--Jesus came this one time in history to provide salvation now, at this time, during this dispensation. Now he wishes to be your Savior. After he comes that option will be taken away. Then he will be your judge.
Now we live in an age of grace where as a loving Father treats his children as children and hands out discipline when appropriate. Tomorrow it mayl be too late, for tonight he may come. For the unsaved he wishes to be your savior; if he isn't he will be your judge.
For the saved they will be resurrected with a glorified body into heaven while God's wrath is poured out upon this world. After seven years they will descend with Christ and rule with him during the MK. A glorified body cannot suffer torment One cannot come from heaven and be cast into a "Baptist Purgatory." Read Revelation 19. There is no chastisment for sin. There is only a conquering Jesus coming to put down the enemies of the Jews and the saints of Christ coming with Him. There is no indication of any saints left behind anywhere. There is no indication of chastisement anywhere of any believer after death. This is all imaginary, and not Biblical. It is not found in 1Cor.3:11-15.

There is nowhere in the Bible where we suffer consequences of our sins after death. We only give account of ourselves for our works done on this earth. Rewards are given out. There is gain of rewards and loss of rewards. If you can find punishment in there you must be a great and mighty scholar, because no one else has been able to. Are you like the RCC who says that infant baptism is taught in the Bible because there were infants in the jailor's household. They read into the Scripture things that are not there. You can't do that. You cannot infer those things which are not clearly taught in Scripture. The Bible doesn't teach iinfant baptism; and it doesn't teach ME theology. Neither one can be demonstrated through Scripture.

The bloood of Christ has covered all of our sins. It has covered the penalty of our sins. Our sins are committed on this earth not in heaven. Therefore the consequences remain on this earth. He died on this earth. He died for the people of this eath. He did not die for the consequences of sins committed elsewhere. There won't be--not by a saint of God.

 

[Mike Berzins]

Why God chastises

Correct. Of course God chastises. The Bible makes it clear that God disciplines those that are His.
I just want Mike B. to answer why God disciplines.

Sorry, not ducking anything. I get busy and sometimes have to be offline for up to 24 hours or more.

If I am hearing you correctly, you think that God chastises a believer only to correct his behavior. This premise is false.

God sometimes kills Christians. Killing them obviously serves no remedial purpose. So God must have some other purpose in mind. When Ananias and Saphira were slain, fear came upon the whole church. So it seems fair to say that God can chastise a believer so that others fear him. By doing this, God also shows forth the truth that he is not mocked, and that whatsover a man sows, that will he reap.

So do you acknowledge that God can kill a Christian, and that the purpose is obviously not so that the Christian can learn how to live right in this world?

 

[Rufus_1611]

...
There is nowhere in the Bible where we suffer consequences of our sins after death. We only give account of ourselves for our works done on this earth. Rewards are given out. There is gain of rewards and loss of rewards. If you can find punishment in there you must be a great and mighty scholar, because no one else has been able to. Are you like the RCC who says that infant baptism is taught in the Bible because there were infants in the jailor's household. They read into the Scripture things that are not there. You can't do that. You cannot infer those things which are not clearly taught in Scripture. The Bible doesn't teach iinfant baptism; and it doesn't teach ME theology. Neither one can be demonstrated through Scripture.
...

In the Holy Bible, is the word "reward(s)" ever used to represent punishment or is it always used to represent something positive?

 

[Lacy Evans]

Good answer, Amy.

Reckon how he knows it's a good answer if he can't see the question?

:laugh:

 

[Mike Berzins]

Consequences of sin

[/I]
This question has been answered over and over again.
Why did Christ leave his throne of glory and come to this earth.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
--"This world" that Christ died for is the world in its present state, not the MK.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
--Jesus came this one time in history to provide salvation now, at this time, during this dispensation. Now he wishes to be your Savior. After he comes that option will be taken away. Then he will be your judge.
Now we live in an age of grace where as a loving Father treats his children as children and hands out discipline when appropriate. Tomorrow it mayl be too late, for tonight he may come. For the unsaved he wishes to be your savior; if he isn't he will be your judge.
For the saved they will be resurrected with a glorified body into heaven while God's wrath is poured out upon this world. After seven years they will descend with Christ and rule with him during the MK. A glorified body cannot suffer torment One cannot come from heaven and be cast into a "Baptist Purgatory." Read Revelation 19. There is no chastisment for sin. There is only a conquering Jesus coming to put down the enemies of the Jews and the saints of Christ coming with Him. There is no indication of any saints left behind anywhere. There is no indication of chastisement anywhere of any believer after death. This is all imaginary, and not Biblical. It is not found in 1Cor.3:11-15.

There is nowhere in the Bible where we suffer consequences of our sins after death. We only give account of ourselves for our works done on this earth. Rewards are given out. There is gain of rewards and loss of rewards. If you can find punishment in there you must be a great and mighty scholar, because no one else has been able to. Are you like the RCC who says that infant baptism is taught in the Bible because there were infants in the jailor's household. They read into the Scripture things that are not there. You can't do that. You cannot infer those things which are not clearly taught in Scripture. The Bible doesn't teach iinfant baptism; and it doesn't teach ME theology. Neither one can be demonstrated through Scripture.

The bloood of Christ has covered all of our sins. It has covered the penalty of our sins. Our sins are committed on this earth not in heaven. Therefore the consequences remain on this earth. He died on this earth. He died for the people of this eath. He did not die for the consequences of sins committed elsewhere. There won't be--not by a saint of God.

So am I hearing you correctly? Are you saying that the blood of Christ covers the "after we are dead" consequences of our sins, but that the "earthly" consequences of our sins are not covered by the blood?

 

[Hope of Glory]

I was asking Mike Berzins.

I don't recall your answer either, HoG. Could you refresh my memory?

What is the grace of God? 2 Corinthians 12:9 says, “And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.” How do we get the power of Christ? The answer to that question is in Romans 5:2: “By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.” If we make shipwreck of the faith, then grace will not be available for us to endure in times of testing. We need the grace of God, if we expect to serve Him in an acceptable manner.

Hebrews 12:28 says, “Let us have (it’s subjunctive; literally, “may we have”) grace, whereby we may serve (present, active, subjunctive) God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.” If we cannot access the grace, then we cannot expect to “…receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.” (You find that in Colossians 3:24.) Grace must reign! Romans 5:21 says, “So might grace reign through righteousness…” Grace does not reign simply because we’re saved. In Romans 5:21, the verb “might reign” is subjunctive, which indicates that grace might not reign. Grace reigns if we continually come to the throne of grace as in Hebrews 4:16, “Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in the time of need.”

[Hebrews 11:1] Now, “faith”, which is a noun, gives substance and evidence to things not seen. Hebrews 11:1 says, “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Faith is the substance that allows us to please God. Verse 6 says, “But without faith it is impossible to please him...” Only the just, the obedient, can live by faith. Faith gives substance to grace. Romans 5:2 says, “...we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand...” If we do not access grace by faith we will not have the power of God we need to endure.

Grace is the power of God. Grace is God doing for us what he requires of us, then giving us the credit for it. This grace can only be offered because God is righteous, and it's through the righteousness of Christ.

But, we're commanded to be righteous as well, and that's why we need grace (the power of God) to be obedient and serve him acceptably, and get the credit for it, even though it is entirely through his power.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Correct. Of course God chastises.

And if that chastizement is limited to this life, the last chastizement is death, at which point, the person gets great and good positive rewards for his life of willful disobedience.

 

[Rufus_1611]

And if that chastizement is limited to this life, the last chastizement is death, at which point, the person gets great and good positive rewards for his life of willful disobedience.

If I had that world view, I think I'd be praying that God would kill me now.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Sorry, not ducking anything. I get busy and sometimes have to be offline for up to 24 hours or more.

If I am hearing you correctly, you think that God chastises a believer only to correct his behavior. This premise is false.

God sometimes kills Christians. Killing them obviously serves no remedial purpose. So God must have some other purpose in mind. When Ananias and Saphira were slain, fear came upon the whole church. So it seems fair to say that God can chastise a believer so that others fear him. By doing this, God also shows forth the truth that he is not mocked, and that whatsover a man sows, that will he reap.

So do you acknowledge that God can kill a Christian, and that the purpose is obviously not so that the Christian can learn how to live right in this world?

Already told her that! Still claims nobody will answer it. Short term memory loss. just keep swimming, just keep swimming. . . . Like preaching to a stone wall

 

[Mike Berzins]

Lack of rewards is a consequence of sin.

[/I]

There is nowhere in the Bible where we suffer consequences of our sins after death. We only give account of ourselves for our works done on this earth. Rewards are given out. There is gain of rewards and loss of rewards.

This statement contradicts itself.

You know that you are commanded to do your absolute best for the Lord. (Love the Lord your God with all your mind, etc.) To him that knoweth to do good, and do it not, to him it is sin.

So if you lose any rewards, you did not do your best, even though you were required to. This lack of a complete effort was a sin. As a consequence of that sin, you receive fewer rewards.

So our sins do carry a consequence after death, unless you irrationally think getting fewer rewards is of no consequence.

Herb Evan rambled on this topic for 30+ pages and he never could answer this point either. I am still waiting for an answer to this one.

 

[Accountable]

Wow! I leave the room to go to town and I get behind on what's going on!

I have looked but have yet to hear an answer to the question concerning the "one" salvation.

Many hear have said at one time or another that we believe in more than one salvation. I guess ya'll only believe in only one?

TCGreek answered and says there is only one.

Since there is but ONE salvation spoken of in the Bible, please show me how this scripture agrees with your theology. That there is but one salvation, and that it is by grace, no works at all. (I believe this is true of the gospel of grace)

Here it is:

I Timothy 2: 13-15

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

 

[Accountable]

Rev. W.H. Griffith Thomas, D.D. wrote the following in 1947:

(Bold font added by me)

"A faithful life for God will often involve trial, hardship, suffering, persecution. But the suffering is not for punishment."

"The believer in suffering is following his Master's example, and as in the Master's case so will it be with the follower, the suffering will inevitably lead to glory."

 

[TCGreek]

You say there is but one salvation in the entire Bible.

Please show me how this verse proves salvation by grace and not works and tell us all how it deals with receiving the gift of God, eternal life.

I Timothy 2: 13-15

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

I have plenty more salvation verses I would love for you to shed "light" on how they deal with the one salvation you speak of but we will first see if your answer indeed proves salvation by grace and not works for eternal life is in view here or maybe we will see that you do indeed believe there are more than one salvation in the Bible.

Don't build a theology on a word that can be translated in many ways. Let context help you.