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Particular Baptists

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
Dr. Bob I'm beginning to wonder now if I was gone or wasn't gone? :confused: All I know is my last log in was July of last year... I lost eight months somewhere... Now where did I put that?... Oh well!!!... Brother Glen:Wink

Maybe you were attending Dr Bobs church and just slept thru all his sermons:D:rolleyes:
 

Tim71

Member
Site Supporter
Yes. Let it. Context is important. One of the first things I was taught in Seminary is that "A text out of context is a pretext."

You know it's sad when Gods people get into a so called gray area they will lean to the left. They will look for ways to approve their inappropriate behaviors instead of trying to live a Holy life I truly believe there are many versus in Gods word that a Christian should abstain from alcohol.

Adrian Rogers (AD 1931-2005) was the well-known pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church, Cordova, Tennessee. He was three times elected president of the Southern Baptist Convention and was a leader in the SBC Conservative Resurgence. His radio, TV, book ministry has reached around the world and continues today. He is one of the best for young, and not so young preachers, to learn from today. Get his books and listen to his sermons.

What did Adrian Rogers believe about alcohol, drinking, wine?
Some of his quotes are below.

“The most dangerous drug in America is beverage alcohol. Number one because of it’s acceptance. Number two, because of it’s availability. Number three, because of the effect that it has upon our hearts and our lives and the misery that it brings.”

“The Bible uses the word wine in two difference senses. The word wine may mean that which may intoxicate you, or it may mean that which may not intoxicate you. The word wine in the Bible may refer to that which is fermented, or that which is not fermented; that which has alcoholic content or that which does not have alcoholic content.”

“God says not to look on it, but to the contrary, we are to shun it when it is fermented (Proverbs 23:31).”

“When a bunch of grapes are hanging on the vine, it’s called wine (Isaiah 65:8).”

“They knew how to check the fermentation of grape juice.”

On the Old Testament Hebrew word for wine, “Yayin may mean that which intoxicates, or that which does not intoxicate (Isaiah 16:10; Proverbs 20:1).”
“The word yayin is a generic word.”

“You are going to have to find out from the context, where the Bible says wine, whether it means that which is intoxicating or whether it isn’t.”

On the New Testament Greek word for wine, oinos. “That too may mean that which is intoxicating or that which is not intoxicating.”

“When you read the word wine in the New Testament, you can only know by the context whether or not it means that which can make you drunk. It does not always mean that which will make you drunk. It frequently means that which is not intoxicating.”

“Did Jesus turn water into wine? Jesus turned water into oinos. Is that the kind of drink that would make a person drunk? Of course not!”
“Do you think Jesus had anything to do with making people drunk? If you do, you don’t know the Jesus that I know.”

“Didn’t Jesus serve wine at the Lord’s Supper? No!”

“Time magazine said alcohol is involved in one half of all murders.”

“Have you ever stopped to think what the word intoxicated means? It means you have toxins put in.”
“When a man is intoxicated he has poisoned himself.”

“Liquor and immorality go together.”
“Liquor removes the inhibitions.”

“Moderation is not the answer to the liquor problem, in most cases it’s the cause of it.”
“It is the moderate drinker that encourages other people to drink.”
“You may be very surprised at who you may hurt with your ability to hold your liquor.”

“The position of a man, woman, boy or girl ought to be total abstinence.”
“If you don’t drink, don’t start!”

“These Scriptures (Proverbs 20:1; 23:29-35) tell us, I believe plainly and clearly, that the Christian’s position, so far as beverage alcohol is concerned, is total abstinence.” -Adrian Rogers (AD 1931-2005), pastor, author,[/QUOTE]
 

Tim71

Member
Site Supporter
OK.

Colossians 2

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,

20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—

21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,”
22 which all concern things which perish with the using— according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.


Sent from my Moto Droid Turbo.

Let these words sink in
1 Corinthians 10:21-23

21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

31. Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Let these words sink in
1 Corinthians 10:21-23

21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

31. Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
The context is partaking of the wine of the Lord's Supper at the same time as drinking to pagan deities.

Let me say again, "Context is your friend."
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
You know it's sad when Gods people get into a so called gray area they will lean to the left. They will look for ways to approve their inappropriate behaviors instead of trying to live a Holy life.
Be very careful about accusing me or anyone else of "lean(ing) to the left" or not "trying to live a Holy life."

You time would be better spent responding to the obvious context of the verses you quoted which are NOT talking about complete abstinence, but rather, as I clearly pointed out, is talking about drunkenness.

So, how do you respond to the fact that the context is drunkenness and not abstinence?
 

Tim71

Member
Site Supporter
Be very careful about accusing me or anyone else of "lean(ing) to the left" or not "trying to live a Holy life."

I did not accuse you personally. You need to read my statement correctly


So, how do you respond to the fact that the context is drunkenness and not abstinence?

I already answered this question on abstinence. Here it is a second time
Proverbs 23:29-35
29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.
 
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TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
I already answered this question on abstinence. Here it is a second time
Proverbs 23:29-35
29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.
And here is the scripture which proves you are wrong.

Pro 18:1 Through desire a man, having separated himself, seeketh and intermeddleth with all wisdom.
Pro 18:2 A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.
Pro 18:3 When the wicked cometh, then cometh also contempt, and with ignominy reproach.
Pro 18:4 The words of a man's mouth are as deep waters, and the wellspring of wisdom as a flowing brook.
Pro 18:5 It is not good to accept the person of the wicked, to overthrow the righteous in judgment.
Pro 18:6 A fool's lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes.
Pro 18:7 A fool's mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul.
Pro 18:8 The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly.
Pro 18:9 He also that is slothful in his work is brother to him that is a great waster.
Pro 18:10 The name of the LORD is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe.
Pro 18:11 The rich man's wealth is his strong city, and as an high wall in his own conceit.
Pro 18:12 Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honour is humility.
Pro 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
Pro 18:14 The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; but a wounded spirit who can bear?
Pro 18:15 The heart of the prudent getteth knowledge; and the ear of the wise seeketh knowledge.
Pro 18:16 A man's gift maketh room for him, and bringeth him before great men.
Pro 18:17 He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him.
Pro 18:18 The lot causeth contentions to cease, and parteth between the mighty.
Pro 18:19 A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle.
Pro 18:20 A man's belly shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; and with the increase of his lips shall he be filled.
Pro 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
Pro 18:22 Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD.
Pro 18:23 The poor useth intreaties; but the rich answereth roughly.
Pro 18:24 A man that hath friends must shew himself friendly: and there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother.
 

Jerome

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dr. Bob is a particular Baptist....Can someone please explain to me what is particular baptist.

Have you seen the book Holding Communion Together by Reformed Baptist historian Tom Chantry? It traces the Particular Baptists from the seventeenth to twenty-first centuries.

Here is an article by that Reformed Baptist historian Tom Chantry that explains a bit:

Defining “Reformed Baptist”

"at Westminster Seminary in the early 1960s....the name “Reformed Baptist” first arose. These Baptists were well aware that the writers of their confession had been called “Particular Baptists.” However, this name did not appeal for a number of reasons. Language changes, and “particular” has come to suggest someone who is needlessly precise...Furthermore, they desired to avoid identification with...Hardshells".

"these men were struck by the great similarities between Presbyterian and Particular Baptist doctrine and practice. Sensing that they had much in common with Reformed Christianity, they adopted the name 'Reformed Baptist.'"
 

Tim71

Member
Site Supporter
Yes. Let it. Context is important. One of the first things I was taught in Seminary is that "A text out of context is a pretext."

Had you quoted the previous verse, 30 "They that tarry long at the wine;
they that go to seek mixed wine" you would have noticed it is drunkeness (tarrying long and going to seek) that is being condemned.

I just had a conversation with a co-worker and he said that this verse is talking about drunkenness as well. The conversation with my co-worker reminded me of this thread

TC you stated
They that tarry long at the wine;
they that go to seek mixed wine" you would have noticed it is drunkeness (tarrying long and going to seek) that is being condemned.

The next verse says 31. Look not thou upon the wine

If we are not to tarry long or seek mixed wine. Verse 31 is saying not to even look at it. Am I taking this simple verse out of context?
 

Reformed

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
We generally say "Reformed" Baptist but totally independent/unaffiliated about our church. Problem? Most "reformed" type Baptists are rabidly "covenant theology" (which I hold to be greatly in error) and most reformed Baptist pastors are trained in Presbyterian schools (which hold deficient doctrinal/polity areas).

To be fair they don't want OUR type of church to be associated with them, either (they've probably heard me preach).

Using "Particular Baptist" harkens back to when that term WAS widely understood - Calvinistic doctrine of soteriology, but not all the other baggage of reformed theology.

And most Reformed Baptist churches consider Dispensationalism to be a great error. So what will it be? Pistols or swords at dawn? LOL


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