Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP That would be a positive thing to do, would it not? Are you certain your coin does not consist of two positive sides?
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Passages that deal with salvation ignored!
- Thread starter JSM17
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HP That would be a positive thing to do, would it not? Are you certain your coin does not consist of two positive sides?
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP That would be a positive thing to do, would it not? Are you certain your coin does not consist of two positive sides?
Of course it is viewed as positive, but the NOT or AGAINST, is what makes it negative.
I believe we need a course in these matters. :smilewinkgrin:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: As iron sharpens iron…:godisgood:
I am not sure that you are using the terms as they are historically used in logic and philosophy, so I am hesitant to agree or disagree.
The fact is that repentance and faith are required for salvation. If you do not repent and believe, you are not saved.
I think you are confusing saving faith here. Saving faith is not believing that God will hold people accountable for sin. It is turning to Christ from sin. Saving faith includes repentance. There is no real chronological distinction.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: What does repentance mean to you? Can one continue in the same sin and still be said to have repented for ones sin? If one continues in the same sin once repented of, can one make shipwreck of the faith and in the end, if such a state of un-repentance is continued in, and find that their hope of eternal life was in reality a false hope that did nothing to prevent their demise in an eternal hell? Again, if not, what is the real import of the repentance you say is required for salvation?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Two men go out and commit adultery. Both show initial signs of remorse and say they have repented. The one ceases from continuing in adultery, the other continues on repeating the same offense although he states he has repented and has been forgiven.
I say only one has repented, the other is deceived. Only one has fulfilled the condition of repentance salvation enjoins, the other has offered only lip service. What do you think? Does repentance involve a cessation of the sin repented for, or can one be in a state of repentance and still be engaging in the sin?
I say only one has repented, the other is deceived. Only one has fulfilled the condition of repentance salvation enjoins, the other has offered only lip service. What do you think? Does repentance involve a cessation of the sin repented for, or can one be in a state of repentance and still be engaging in the sin?
If one does not have godly sorrow then he will not repent. John the baptist showed the multitudes that fruit of repentance is part of true repenting, if there is no fruit then there is no true repentance. Of course it makes no sense to me for someone to repent of anything unless they understood their state which would declare to them that they need to repent. That is why it is impossible to repent without first having a faith that has an understanding of our condition before God.
The only time I see repentance preceeding believing in Christ was when John and Jesus spoke to the Jews who needed to repent from their ways against God, they already believed in God, but needed to repent for the things they had done and believe in the Messiah.
Today men are not in a situation like the Jews, we come to faith a belief in God first by hearing the word, in which we understand our state before God. In a good heart (which some say is impossible) the seed (the word of God) is planted and brings forth much. Repentance is unto life, repentance is unto salvation, which tells me that it is a conditional command by God for man which LEADS to life (salvation) Faith saves and repentance saves! Never one alone by itself.
The only time I see repentance preceeding believing in Christ was when John and Jesus spoke to the Jews who needed to repent from their ways against God, they already believed in God, but needed to repent for the things they had done and believe in the Messiah.
Today men are not in a situation like the Jews, we come to faith a belief in God first by hearing the word, in which we understand our state before God. In a good heart (which some say is impossible) the seed (the word of God) is planted and brings forth much. Repentance is unto life, repentance is unto salvation, which tells me that it is a conditional command by God for man which LEADS to life (salvation) Faith saves and repentance saves! Never one alone by itself.
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There is a limited amount of sins that can be committed.(i.e. lying, lust, etc.) I mean there is a limited amount of items that you could list that would be sins, you can repent of every known sin, but you will sin again. If you repented correctly, as several folks here have said true repentance is in their opinion, then at some point you would be sin free, having repented and "turned from" every sin you repented of. I don't think anyone can live sin free, so how do you correctly repent of all sin?
1 John 1:7-10
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV
The blood of Christ cleanses us as we walk in the light, if we confess our sins. Is every sin confessed? Does one unconfessed sin result in us no longer walking in the light? When we do sin it is apparent that if we have knowledge of that sin then God wants us to turn from it, have a different mind set about it and He wants us to confess it to Him. I think the point is that we continue walking in the light. If we come to a point of no longer confessing our sin to God then we at some point may no longer be walking in that light.
As James points out that some sin leads to death some sin does not, what's the difference? I think this is one idea that helps us better to understand what James was speaking of.
Repentance is unto salvation, so it must be done in oder to be saved, so what do we repent of? Is every sin ever committed repented of? I think in detail this is impossible, God knows it and when one repents he is repenting of His transgrressions against God in general and turning towards Him. As we grow and are walking in the light, our sins should be more evident and should be repented of and not continued, yet if we are not aware of maybe one of those sins we are still walking in the light, God will reveal those sins that are problematic in our relationship with Him.
Since we all sin and sin everyday this will always be needed, yet habitual sinning as spoken by John in his 1st epistle is not something that is done by one born of God. 1 John 3:9 Yet stumbling through life sinning will occur and needs to be confessed and repented of. To think that we should eliminate the human resposiblity because it somehow removed God's grace is not true.
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV
The blood of Christ cleanses us as we walk in the light, if we confess our sins. Is every sin confessed? Does one unconfessed sin result in us no longer walking in the light? When we do sin it is apparent that if we have knowledge of that sin then God wants us to turn from it, have a different mind set about it and He wants us to confess it to Him. I think the point is that we continue walking in the light. If we come to a point of no longer confessing our sin to God then we at some point may no longer be walking in that light.
As James points out that some sin leads to death some sin does not, what's the difference? I think this is one idea that helps us better to understand what James was speaking of.
Repentance is unto salvation, so it must be done in oder to be saved, so what do we repent of? Is every sin ever committed repented of? I think in detail this is impossible, God knows it and when one repents he is repenting of His transgrressions against God in general and turning towards Him. As we grow and are walking in the light, our sins should be more evident and should be repented of and not continued, yet if we are not aware of maybe one of those sins we are still walking in the light, God will reveal those sins that are problematic in our relationship with Him.
Since we all sin and sin everyday this will always be needed, yet habitual sinning as spoken by John in his 1st epistle is not something that is done by one born of God. 1 John 3:9 Yet stumbling through life sinning will occur and needs to be confessed and repented of. To think that we should eliminate the human resposiblity because it somehow removed God's grace is not true.
Tom Butler
New Member
Acts 17 Paul's sermon on Mars Hill:
V. 30 Paul says ...."but now commands all men everywhere to repent."
V. 34 "....however certain men clave unto him and believed..."
The exhortation: repent
The response: some believed.
V. 30 Paul says ...."but now commands all men everywhere to repent."
V. 34 "....however certain men clave unto him and believed..."
The exhortation: repent
The response: some believed.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Say for instance I was there and I say “I believe!” How would you know if in fact I was not simply deceived…. or is deception possible? What question might you ask me, and what advice would you have for me to see if in fact I am really ‘of the faith?’
You would bear fruit worthy of repentance, your faith would be indicated by obedience.
Mark 2:1-5
When He had come back to Capernaum several days afterward, it was heard that He was at home.
2 And many were gathered together, so that there was no longer room, not even near the door; and He was speaking the word to them.
3 And they came, bringing to Him a paralytic, carried by four men.
4 Being unable to get to Him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above Him; and when they had dug an opening, they let down the pallet on which the paralytic was lying.
5 And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, " Son, your sins are forgiven."
NASU
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP:I agree. :thumbsup: At first one might only see a heart attitude, a complete willingness to follow the Lord, indicating sincere repentance, but fruit will indeed follow if it is genuine, without which no forgiveness is enjoined.
John 8:30-44
30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him.
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
33 They answered Him,"We are Abraham's descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, 'You will be made free'?"
34 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.
35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever.
36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
37 Abraham's Seed and Satan's "I know that you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.
38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father."
39 They answered and said to Him,"Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.
41 You do the deeds of your father." Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father -- God."
42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.
43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
NKJV
It seems that these men believed in Jesus yet were not saved, mny I am sure will say that these men did not have true faith and I would agree because their faith was dead. John tells us that they believe in Jesus yet their father was the devil.
So is there a difference from what many would say that belief in Christ alone saves and these men who John said that they believed in Christ?
John 12:42-46
Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue;
43 for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
44 Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me.
45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me.
46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness.
NKJV
Is John saying that these men believed in Christ, yet were not saved?
Confession is unto salvation according to Romans 10:10, belief without confession is a dead faith, yet one can believ in Jesus and abide in darkness as v.46 points out. Notice that the text does not say that whoever believes in Me cannot abide in darkness, but should not abide in darkness.
Belief or faith apart from obedience cannot lead one to salvation.
Here we have an inspired Apostle declaring that these men believe in Jesus, yet were still lost. They remained in darkness because their faith alone was not able to save them.
I know there are going to be those of you who say that they did not have true saving faith alone that could save, yet they did believe in something according to John, so what did they believe about Jesus that cause John to say that they believed yet were not saved by this belief or by their faith alone?
Notice that there is not repentance in their belief, something that is as some say joined directly with belief, so it looks like someone can have a belief in Christ and not repent, making the two seperate acts. One can begin with a belief and not follow through do to issues as stated by John about those who were worried about other men.
It is amazing that the men in John 8 believed yet still saught to kill him.
how is it that many could not deny the miracles wrought by Jesus yet they did not believe in Him because of them? Here you have men believing in Him but not obeying Him, not abiding in His teaching.
30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him.
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
33 They answered Him,"We are Abraham's descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, 'You will be made free'?"
34 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.
35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever.
36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
37 Abraham's Seed and Satan's "I know that you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.
38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father."
39 They answered and said to Him,"Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.
41 You do the deeds of your father." Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father -- God."
42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.
43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
NKJV
It seems that these men believed in Jesus yet were not saved, mny I am sure will say that these men did not have true faith and I would agree because their faith was dead. John tells us that they believe in Jesus yet their father was the devil.
So is there a difference from what many would say that belief in Christ alone saves and these men who John said that they believed in Christ?
John 12:42-46
Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue;
43 for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
44 Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me.
45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me.
46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness.
NKJV
Is John saying that these men believed in Christ, yet were not saved?
Confession is unto salvation according to Romans 10:10, belief without confession is a dead faith, yet one can believ in Jesus and abide in darkness as v.46 points out. Notice that the text does not say that whoever believes in Me cannot abide in darkness, but should not abide in darkness.
Belief or faith apart from obedience cannot lead one to salvation.
Here we have an inspired Apostle declaring that these men believe in Jesus, yet were still lost. They remained in darkness because their faith alone was not able to save them.
I know there are going to be those of you who say that they did not have true saving faith alone that could save, yet they did believe in something according to John, so what did they believe about Jesus that cause John to say that they believed yet were not saved by this belief or by their faith alone?
Notice that there is not repentance in their belief, something that is as some say joined directly with belief, so it looks like someone can have a belief in Christ and not repent, making the two seperate acts. One can begin with a belief and not follow through do to issues as stated by John about those who were worried about other men.
It is amazing that the men in John 8 believed yet still saught to kill him.
how is it that many could not deny the miracles wrought by Jesus yet they did not believe in Him because of them? Here you have men believing in Him but not obeying Him, not abiding in His teaching.
Darron Steele
New Member
Here is the gist of your argument: if a person believes on Jesus Christ, then s/he still may not be saved.
Acts 10:43 expressly says of Jesus Christ "everyone that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV).
If the Scriptures teach what you would have us think, then Scripture contradicts itself. If Scripture does not contradict itself, then your position is untenable.
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As for this thread's title, no one is ignoring any Scripture passage.
I realize it is common Church of Christ propaganda to allege that other church groups ignore Scripture. I also realize it makes good fodder for self-congratulation. Nonetheless, it is not true.
Your first point was to allege that people here deny that repentance is necessary for salvation. You refuse to accept that repentance is included within faith. You might insist that there is a separation, but to the people you are falsely accusing of ignoring Scripture, there is no recognized separation. Therefore, it is totally unfair to accuse them of ignoring Scripture when they insist on salvation by faith.
I regret that you allowed yourself to dive so low. Common Church of Christ debate tactics are often quite unbecoming of Christians, and I think it reflects poorly on the Churches of Christ. I would like to see the Churches of Christ have a good representative here, because I have seen better and would like others to see it. When you first posted here, I enjoyed reading your posts for their refreshing demeanor. I would hate to see allegations such as this become your norm.
Acts 10:43 expressly says of Jesus Christ "everyone that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV).
If the Scriptures teach what you would have us think, then Scripture contradicts itself. If Scripture does not contradict itself, then your position is untenable.
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As for this thread's title, no one is ignoring any Scripture passage.
I realize it is common Church of Christ propaganda to allege that other church groups ignore Scripture. I also realize it makes good fodder for self-congratulation. Nonetheless, it is not true.
Your first point was to allege that people here deny that repentance is necessary for salvation. You refuse to accept that repentance is included within faith. You might insist that there is a separation, but to the people you are falsely accusing of ignoring Scripture, there is no recognized separation. Therefore, it is totally unfair to accuse them of ignoring Scripture when they insist on salvation by faith.
I regret that you allowed yourself to dive so low. Common Church of Christ debate tactics are often quite unbecoming of Christians, and I think it reflects poorly on the Churches of Christ. I would like to see the Churches of Christ have a good representative here, because I have seen better and would like others to see it. When you first posted here, I enjoyed reading your posts for their refreshing demeanor. I would hate to see allegations such as this become your norm.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: What if the gist of his argument is that if a person believes he has believed, he may in the end be found deceived?
HP: Are you telling us that everyone that says they have believed or have faith are saved? Tell us this magic bullet of belief/faith that one can know that he believes/has faith without the possibility of deception. You need to answer the question in your own mind as to how can one know that I am not deceived as to my belief/faith, and then share that with the list of course. Please do not simply point to Scripture as so many have done, for the Scripture stands true yet many are still deceived. Scriptural truth does not negate deception.
Darron Steele Wrote:
My original post
First in my defense I would like to say that I have reread by first post and find nothing wrong with it, I did not attack anyone and have maintained a mostly respectful demeanor, the one time I got snarky I apologized and have been on my best behavior. I have not pointed at any person as an individual saying that they believe this or that, I was merely making a point to those who hold to certain ideas, this is debating you know. I am sorry that you no longer enjoy my posts, but I doubt it is because of my supposed "allegations".
I understand many of you believe a certain way about salvation, it ok if I do not see it your way. But I did not call on you personally as a target, so I am not sure where this is coming from.
It is unclear to me what you are saying, I think you misunderstood my last post and my first post, but I have addressed my first post. Now my last post must be clear to some because HP pick up on it and you did not.
My point from those scripture was that some believed, yet could not be saved because their belief did not follow with obedience, hence they believed as John states by inspiration, but were not saved, therefore they had faith but their faith alone could not saved them just as faith alone cannot save anyone.
I hope that since none of you are sitting here with me in my living room and cannot see my physical demeanor, that we would not let our words dictate our true intentions, it has been seen on this forum in times past that some of you that are of the same denomination beliefs and background, get a little snippy as well and yet many do not call on it or make mention, I would hate to think that everytime that something is not taken the right way that I will be targeted as being this or that. I am by mo means trying to make people mad, that is not why I am here. I could be doing a lot of other things but I choose to engage in conversation with all of you.
I know there is bias towards the COC, but I believe I have handled myself just fine and will continue doing so. I do believe that there are people in the NT that spoke in such ways that many here would not like as well, even Jesus spoke a certain way that many would not like.
I would apologize but I feel as if I have done nothing wrong, but if I did I certainly would.
So back to the points made in my last post. I hope we can get back to it.
Faith in and of itself does not save, even Cornelius and his house hold repented and were baptized in water. I understand that some believe because the Holy Spirit fell on them that they must have been saved, but I all ready asked a few the question about the other account in the N.T. in regards to when others received the H.S. and when they were saved.
You have those in Acts 8 who believed and were baptized, yet did not receive the H.S. until John and Peter came down and laid their hands on them. Were they saved when they believed or were they saved only after they received the H.S. which came after baptism?
Then you have those in Acts 19 who were baptized of course after Paul instructed them, they did not receive the Spirit until after they believe and were baptized as well, so when were they saved.
So if Cornelius is our example of salvation because he receive the Holy Spirit before baptism then what do we do with these other passages, actually what do you do with these passages. The question has been ignored on other posts, so hopefully we can hear what others may think here.
My original post
First in my defense I would like to say that I have reread by first post and find nothing wrong with it, I did not attack anyone and have maintained a mostly respectful demeanor, the one time I got snarky I apologized and have been on my best behavior. I have not pointed at any person as an individual saying that they believe this or that, I was merely making a point to those who hold to certain ideas, this is debating you know. I am sorry that you no longer enjoy my posts, but I doubt it is because of my supposed "allegations".
I understand many of you believe a certain way about salvation, it ok if I do not see it your way. But I did not call on you personally as a target, so I am not sure where this is coming from.
It is unclear to me what you are saying, I think you misunderstood my last post and my first post, but I have addressed my first post. Now my last post must be clear to some because HP pick up on it and you did not.
My point from those scripture was that some believed, yet could not be saved because their belief did not follow with obedience, hence they believed as John states by inspiration, but were not saved, therefore they had faith but their faith alone could not saved them just as faith alone cannot save anyone.
I hope that since none of you are sitting here with me in my living room and cannot see my physical demeanor, that we would not let our words dictate our true intentions, it has been seen on this forum in times past that some of you that are of the same denomination beliefs and background, get a little snippy as well and yet many do not call on it or make mention, I would hate to think that everytime that something is not taken the right way that I will be targeted as being this or that. I am by mo means trying to make people mad, that is not why I am here. I could be doing a lot of other things but I choose to engage in conversation with all of you.
I know there is bias towards the COC, but I believe I have handled myself just fine and will continue doing so. I do believe that there are people in the NT that spoke in such ways that many here would not like as well, even Jesus spoke a certain way that many would not like.
I would apologize but I feel as if I have done nothing wrong, but if I did I certainly would.
So back to the points made in my last post. I hope we can get back to it.
Faith in and of itself does not save, even Cornelius and his house hold repented and were baptized in water. I understand that some believe because the Holy Spirit fell on them that they must have been saved, but I all ready asked a few the question about the other account in the N.T. in regards to when others received the H.S. and when they were saved.
You have those in Acts 8 who believed and were baptized, yet did not receive the H.S. until John and Peter came down and laid their hands on them. Were they saved when they believed or were they saved only after they received the H.S. which came after baptism?
Then you have those in Acts 19 who were baptized of course after Paul instructed them, they did not receive the Spirit until after they believe and were baptized as well, so when were they saved.
So if Cornelius is our example of salvation because he receive the Holy Spirit before baptism then what do we do with these other passages, actually what do you do with these passages. The question has been ignored on other posts, so hopefully we can hear what others may think here.
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Water does not save. But could these difficult passages such as:
Ac*2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
refer to the baptism of John, the baptism of repentance? Could baptism in these passages be a sign of our repentence toward God?
To be saved one must repent and believe. Most say these are 2 sides of the same coin.
Just a thought.
Ac*2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
refer to the baptism of John, the baptism of repentance? Could baptism in these passages be a sign of our repentence toward God?
To be saved one must repent and believe. Most say these are 2 sides of the same coin.
Just a thought.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: What is repentance?