Pastor on the clock

[Luke2427]

I'd like to give him a mop, broom and a weed eater. He and his 5 kids could knock out the cleaning and lawn maintenance in an hour or so on Saturday morning. Idle hands....

Said like a man who has never read a verse of Scripture in the whole Bible.

That would be like commanding the head brain surgeon at Duke University Hospital to clean all the toilets on the fourth floor before he begins his day of trying to save lives by brain surgery.

He cannot do his REAL job worth two cents if he is exhausted doing your job for you.

YOU cut the lawn. That is probably what God made you to do. But don't ask your pastor to do it if he is worth two cents. Because he probably would and God would hold him and you accountable for blasphemy against his sacred duties.

 

[Luke2427]

AS a pastor with an education I will say that it is absurd that laymen can only study the Bible and have discussions at a lower level is severely arrogant and completely not true.

If any layman can do what you do then you ought to get an honest job. Really.

If any layman can remove a tumor from a brain as good as a particular brain surgeon- then he is a farce and his holding that position is deadly avarice.

The same goes for any pastor.

 

[saturneptune]

I considered the Baptist Board a "ministry" since the day we began, and have both shared AND learned over the past 13+ years with this bunch of miscreants. 8)

Hey, I never cause problems. LOL. I think we should all appreciate the time put in by you and the other moderators/administrators. From observing, I think it goes far beyond editing over the line comments. This is not news to you of course, as you deal with it daily, but I have noticed some posters trying to pit one moderator against the other.

It cannot be easy to moderate when all must be treated the same. The hardest part of the job has got to be when to give an infraction or pushing the ban button. Anyway, each of you should get more thanks from us than you receive.

 

[saturneptune]

Of course pastors have a different level of knowledge than layman. They probably spent several years in seminary. Also, one cannot compare a pastor's job to a secular job like mine. To me, it is not a matter of how long the pastor is on the clock that makes it difficult, it is the responsibility attached to the job. The pastor is charged to a degree with the spiritual growth and well being of each member of his flock.

No, a layman cannot fully understand what it is like to be a pastor. All I know is that it takes a special person, which is one of the reasons a calling of the Lord is required.

 

[quantumfaith]

Matthew 23:11-12
New International Version (NIV)
11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

 

[Luke2427]

Matthew 23:11-12
New International Version (NIV)
11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

And in what ways should the pastor SERVE his flock?

Brain surgeons serve their patients- but not by taking out there trash for them.

Kings serve their people but not by pumping out their septic tanks.

A conflation of duties is a terrible thing.

The surgeon is actually derelict of his duty if he spends more time cleaning his patients' houses than he does preparing himself to remove tumors from their brains.

 

[quantumfaith]

And in what ways should the pastor SERVE his flock?

Brain surgeons serve their patients- but not by taking out there trash for them.

Kings serve their people but not by pumping out their septic tanks.

A conflation of duties is a terrible thing.

The surgeon is actually derelict of his duty if he spends more time cleaning his patients' houses than he does preparing himself to remove tumors from their brains.

I think your diatribe earlier in the thread was "over the top". Being a servant is not something that one defines and describes like some official "job description", rather it is a posture of the heart. One, such as yourself should be every bit as willing to do yard work, or clean the bathrooms, what ever might for some reason and some time might be required of you. Your speech came across (perhaps intentionally, I don't know) that you are simply too good or over qualified for some "menial tasks." If intentionally so, then I simply think you are wrong.

 

[Gib]

That would be like commanding the head brain surgeon at Duke University Hospital to clean all the toilets on the fourth floor before he begins his day of trying to save lives by brain surgery.

It's nothing like that. But if the head brain surgeon at Duke was available on work day at his church, I see nothing wrong with him grabbing paint brush and throwing some paint on a wall.

YOU cut the lawn. That is probably what God made you to do.

Ah no. I have a grass allergy

I've never worked with a pastor that did not pick up a broom or a rake when needed. Our current pastor does that and will take out the trash when needed, help clean up after a fellowship, and do other things that are apparently beneath his standing.

 

[Revmitchell]

I have cleaned many a church toilets and mopped many church floors as pastor. When pastors think they are to sit in their ivory tower and look down at peons then there is a problem.

Pastors are pastors and qualified because they are called. Nothing else. When the pastor begins to think that he is the only one who can study or understand scripture at a certain level there is a problem.

Pastors are not higher than anyone else. Nor are they above anyone else.

However, according to Hebrews 13:7 Pastors should be followed and emulated by their faith.

According to Hebrews 13:17 the pastor has a responsibility that no one else in the church has. The pastor also has an accountability that no one else in the church has.


But when pastors start building their ivory towers and cannot serve the people outside of it. The people will suffer.

 

[Amy.G]

I have cleaned many a church toilets and mopped many church floors as pastor. When pastors think they are to sit in their ivory tower and look down at peons then there is a problem.

:thumbsup:

And Jesus taught that as He washed the nasty feet of the disciples.

 

[Revmitchell]

If any layman can do what you do then you ought to get an honest job. Really.

If any layman can remove a tumor from a brain as good as a particular brain surgeon- then he is a farce and his holding that position is deadly avarice.

The same goes for any pastor.

Well then you keep making that excuse. And if your church excepts that premise then that is between you and them. But I can tell you that almost no other churches,anywhere, would put up with your attitude. And quite honestly it is a shame a man who fills the pulpit regularly has such an attitude. May God fill our pulpits with men who have been to the cross and have never gotten over it. Those men know better than this.

 

[Revmitchell]

:thumbsup:

And Jesus taught that as He washed the nasty feet of the disciples.

And Jesus who is God was not concerned what "brain surgeons" are doing or are not doing before he decided to do it.

Joh 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
Joh 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
Joh 13:17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.

 

[Luke2427]

I think your diatribe earlier in the thread was "over the top". Being a servant is not something that one defines and describes like some official "job description", rather it is a posture of the heart. One, such as yourself should be every bit as willing to do yard work, or clean the bathrooms, what ever might for some reason and some time might be required of you. Your speech came across (perhaps intentionally, I don't know) that you are simply too good or over qualified for some "menial tasks." If intentionally so, then I simply think you are wrong.

No, I do menial tasks.

However, I serve my flock MUCH more faithfully by NOT spending much of my time doing those tasks but rather spending that time studying, meditating, preparing myself to preach, etc...

There may be no word more abused in this pusillanimous age than "serve."

Jesus said to the disciples that the greatest of them would be servant of all. Yet not one of them gave their life over to menial servitude. They served each other and the world by learning, knowing, and unflinchingly proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

This "lawnmower effect" of making sure that no one person has any more authority than any other is not biblical- AT ALL.

That should mean something to you. I trust it does.

God's blessings come, NOT AS WE REJECT GOD'S ESTABLISHED ORDER... but as we embrace it gladly.

 

[Luke2427]

Well then you keep making that excuse. And if your church excepts that premise then that is between you and them. But I can tell you that almost no other churches,anywhere, would put up with your attitude. And quite honestly it is a shame a man who fills the pulpit regularly has such an attitude. May God fill our pulpits with men who have been to the cross and have never gotten over it. Those men know better than this.

Yea, but what YOU mean by that diatribe is really- men who are NOTHING like the men of the Bible.

What you mean are weak, pusillanimous, ignorant, worms... not men; and certainly not men like the ones that fill to overflowing the pages of Scripture.

What you want in the pulpit is weak men- but not weak in the sense that they have no confidence in themselves like PAUL means by weak... but weak in the sense of wormy, worthless, visionless, passionless, spineless somewhat male if at all figures.

That's what you think being "spiritual" is.

But if you would PICK UP a copy of the Bible sometimes you would abandon such notions.

 

[Bro. James]

Without laity there would be no need for a head cleric and staff of clerics and paid piano players.

See: "The Origin and Implication of Clergy and Laity" by John Bair.

and: The Distinction between Clergy and Laity-Is it of God? by Hesterman.

All true Christians(The Way) are contracted 24-7, 365, for the duration in the Lord's Army until Jesus returns.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Without laity there would be no need for a head cleric and staff of clerics and paid piano players.

See: "The Origin and Implication of Clergy and Laity" by John Bair.

and: The Distinction between Clergy and Laity-Is it of God? by Hesterman.t

All true Christians(The Way) are contracted 24-7, 365, for the duration in the Lord's Army until Jesus returns.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

Ahhh yup! Thanks:thumbs:

 

[preacher4truth]

Without laity there would be no need for a head cleric and staff of clerics and paid piano players.

See: "The Origin and Implication of Clergy and Laity" by John Bair.

and: The Distinction between Clergy and Laity-Is it of God? by Hesterman.

All true Christians(The Way) are contracted 24-7, 365, for the duration in the Lord's Army until Jesus returns.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

I've read the latter.

Speaking of paid pianists I've not seen music ministers in the NT. I don't know how it is elsewhere, but around here, the music minister MUST be paid (according to themselves). At many churches the PAID music minister shows up like an hireling for the 'worship' service and skips all other Bible studies, fellowships &c. If a church (for a large part) here doesn't pay a music minister then they are without one. I don't see the necessity of having one in the first place, at least as in some official office. Perhaps there is an element of having to be entertained that has made this 'office' expected.

 

[Bob Alkire]

I've read the latter.

Speaking of paid pianists I've not seen music ministers in the NT. I don't know how it is elsewhere, but around here, the music minister MUST be paid (according to themselves). At many churches the PAID music minister shows up like an hireling for the 'worship' service and skips all other Bible studies, fellowships &c. If a church (for a large part) here doesn't pay a music minister then they are without one. I don't see the necessity of having one in the first place, at least as in some official office. Perhaps there is an element of having to be entertained that has made this 'office' expected.

I've seen what you have listed many times. I also agree with you on this matter.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I've seen what you have listed many times. I also agree with you on this matter.

So do I. I do dearly love Sacred Heart Acapella music however. Wonder how that gets implemented.

 

[preacher4truth]

I've seen what you have listed many times. I also agree with you on this matter.

It may be more common than we would think.

One of our core principles is that whomever is used in any type of ministry, or considering being used, said will also be part of the church praying together, and be faithful in other areas of church functions. Faithful in little = faithful in much (Luke 16:10) has been rejected too often. Too many want the platform without the holiness and dedication to the 'church in the trenches'. They won't serve here, not to mention there is much more to consider about serving than these things -- Acts 6 for example.