Pastor with a divorced wife?

[Scott_Bushey]

Dr. Bob,
The camps are split on the meaning of a "one woman man/the husband of one woman". A life above reproach means that this leader has lived in a manner that his life reflects and supports the claim of being above reproach and that no one can literally "have anything on him or on his life". A pastor who has had a previous divorce, whether or not he was a part to or agreed with the divorce is (imo) irrelevent. The scripture in Timothy also exhorts that this man must rule his house *well*. A man who has had his house destroyed by discord has not ruled it well. In this manner I believe the scripture speaks to the past tense as well as present. I do not believe it speaks to just the present condition. If this were the case, how could anyone have anything on anyone, the challenge would be from moment to moment. I do not believe this idea follows. I myself am divorced. Even though it was previous to my salvation and am a new creation in Christ Jesus, Based upon this fact alone, I believe I am excluded from the pastorial ministry as it could cause problems in the future if I were to counsel divorcee's or those struggling with the idea.

Food for thought...........

Hope everyone had a great Memorial day!

In HIM,
Scott

[ May 28, 2002, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

[Bartholomew]

Hi,

I'm with dbrauer. Where is the biblical evidence that it's OK to re-marry if you're divorced? Jesus said ANYONE who married a divorcee committed adultery.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Bartholomew:
Hi,

I'm with dbrauer. Where is the biblical evidence that it's OK to re-marry if you're divorced? Jesus said ANYONE who married a divorcee committed adultery.

I realize this thread is probably dead, but I didn't want to see it end this way...

Is it wrong for someone to remarry if their spouse dies? Most would say no. What if they were living in Old Testament days and the spouse was stoned (executed) for adultery? Would if be wrong for the surviving spouse remarry? Most would probably still say no.

Do we execute people for adultery in the United States? Not legally. If the marriage can't be saved because the adulterous spouse is unwilling to do so, should the innocent person who did not want a divorce live as a single person the rest of their days because we don't execute adulterers? I believe that's why Jesus mentioned sexual sin as being a legitimate reason for divorce.

I know several people who have suffered through indescribable agony because of unfaithful spouses and have been driven to divorce. Should they be punished for the sins of their spouse?

 

[FearNot]

This has been a issue long on my mind due to a family members situation. The Bible grants divorse, biblically for 1. a spouce commiting adultry, and 2. A believer's non-believing spouse requests a divorce. First let me say that Jesus would prefer that the two repair the marriage. Secondly a divorce for any other reason is unholy. If the spouse is abusive, has a gambling problem, is a drunkard, etc is not a biblically accepted reason for divorce. I have found nothing that says they have to stay in the same household with the person, but they can not seek divorce. If that person then seeks a divorce, then remarries, then they committed adultry at that point and remarriage is allowed. Just because the government says two are sepperated from their vowels doesn't mean God has released them. That is why we all must be very choosy about who we have relationships with and marry. That is why pastors should require counseling before marriage.
Concerning those examples, as they were described, niether were biblical divorces, hence Scripture labels them as adulterous relationships.
A pastor is stated in Scripture to be above reproach, if he or his spouse can be seen as adulterers, then they fail that requirement and should not be pastors. Whether they felt called or not. God would not call someone who could not pass His requirements. Sometimes the cost of sin disqualifies people from the ministry they were called to. Man often chooses their preferances over God's guidelines and it costs us dearly sometimes.

 

[David Cooke Jr]

Some reasons for divorce that I've come across in my job (prosecutor)that the Bible does not sanction, but I think God feels is OK:
1) Raping and sodomizing your spouse.
2) breaking your spouses arm.
3) running over your spouses legs with a car.
4) hiring a hitman to murder your spouse.
5) molesting the children
6) torturing the children
7) kidnapping your spouse and stabbing her
8) beating your spouse and violating the restraining order by stalking her.
9) stabbing your spouse in the abdomen causing her to lose her baby.
10) murdering other people.
I could go on. I left out "stealing for a living" and "dealing drugs" just because they are so common I'm not sure they are always grounds for divorce.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by FearNot:
Concerning those examples, as they were described, niether were biblical divorces, hence Scripture labels them as adulterous relationships.

I have a new detail to add to the first scenario. The former husband also acknowledged committing adultery and raping other women. On at least one occasion, a rape resulted in a pregnancy. The wife attempted reconciliation but he would not cooperate. Does this change your view?

A pastor is stated in Scripture to be above reproach, if he or his spouse can be seen as adulterers, then they fail that requirement and should not be pastors.

In what way would you say that adultery is more a disqualifier than... denying Christ "thrice. The point in question is where do you draw the line? What sins bring permanent reproach? How long must someone live above reproach before past sins can be forgotten and overcome?

Whether they felt called or not. God would not call someone who could not pass His requirements. Sometimes the cost of sin disqualifies people from the ministry they were called to. Man often chooses their preferances over God's guidelines and it costs us dearly sometimes.

You have defined the crux of my problem. I agree with you completely but have yet to sort out exactly how scriptural principles should be applied. I am satisfied that the pastor's wife in Ex. #1 had strong biblical grounds for divorce. The problem is that I am unsure whether the pastoral requirement passages deal with clearly delineated rules or broad principles.

 

[Grasshopper]

http://www.emmanuel-baptist.org/sermons/Mount/mount14.htm

 

[FearNot]

Scott,
Yes the adultry in that situation would make that divorce biblical.
On your second issue, I have to wonder someetimes if someone who denies Chrsit at some point ever was a believer. As you know to be a believer in Christ you have to surrender all to Him. He must be more important than anything else. That is why I think some people with secret sins can very possibly not be saved. If in their thoughts they hold something sinful to heart and refuse to surrender it, when they proclaim Christ, then they are not saved because they did not surrender completely to the Lord. That might be the situation in the man who denied Christ could be in. Are inability to see a person's thoughts makes knowing whether or not someone is truely saved tough. That is why we must look for warning signals/inappropriate behaviors.
The crux of your problem would seem to be how far does disqualification stretch to pastors. Well, pastors are in a different boat than the rest of us, because of the position they are in and by which God requires. Here is an example, Sandi Patti the Christian singer, she had an affair. She admitted doing it, admitted it was a sin. She didn't just go back to making cds, which she could have done, she left the ministry for years. That doesn't correct her sin, but it showed her regret for her actions and that she acknowledged the severity of her affair on the kingdom of God. I can see how she can now return to the ministry and use that as a witness tool, but she is not a pastor or held to a pastors requirements.
A pastor is dictated to be a husband of one wife. A pastor's wife could have an affair and he could get a biblical divorce, yet is he still qualified? That is a age old question. In my eyes, he should not. Somehow he was involved in the divorce. Some people spend too much time in their pastoring and ignore their #2 focus, their family, with God being #1. Some ignore their spouse, the book on the five love languages by Dr. Gary Chapman details peoples common mistakes and how to avoid them. Some people marry people they shouldn't have. I know people who have got engaged a month after meeting and marry shortly there after. Are their marriages that succeed under those conditions? sure, but they are rare. The examples are numerous for failed marriages. The examples of things that would discredit a pastor is numerous ex. pornography, child melistation, homosexuality, imbezzlement, fraud etc. You can be a pastor when people have to wonder, will he do it again. You can't be a pastor if people can be lead away from your church because your lifestyle is ungodly. If you are not above reproach, as Scripture says, one can not be a pastor.
Scott, I hope you read this in the heart of how I have meant it to come out, not as harshness, but as concern that God's will be done and that His kingdom not be hurt by any of our behaviors or desires. Sometimes our desires are misunderstood to be a call. One of my former pastors wife seeked ordination for the pastorate. That is unbiblical, hence it could not be God's call. We have to take God's word to heart and abide in it, not our thoughts and feelings.
Mr. Cook,
Those things that you mentioned are horrib;e things, and we all know they happen, but that doesn't mean that God allows divorce for those reasons. Scripture is very specific for the biblical grounds for divorce. As Scripture says thou shall not commit murder, it doesn't mean you can kill a baby because you don't want it, it doesn't mean you can kill yourself because you are ill and can't stand the pain, it doesn't mean you can kill out of revenge of a hanious crime committed on you or your family. Many things in Scripture, like these two examples, God was very specific on. As I said, what we feel comfortable with isn't the point. Would I want to stay married to someone who abused me, no! Would it be biblical for me to divorce someone who abused me? No. but Scripture doesn't require me to stay with them as I said before. If they then commit adultry I would be biblically justified in seeking a divorce. This is one of those issues that I have to trust God's reasoning. It is also a caution for people to take marriage seriously. It would be better for someone to stay single their whole life than to marry the wrong person.

 

[David Cooke Jr]

Fearnot,
I'm familiar with scripture, but I still think the God I know and worship would not deny one of his children the blessing of marriage if their spouse abused them in the manners I listed above.
To hold otherwise would punish the innocent for the sins of the guilty, and make them a victim twice.

 

[FearNot]

Mr. Cooke, I can understand where you are coming from. I wish I could make that allowance, but my convictions have kept me from mariage I now know would have been a mistake in God's eyes.
I actually come back because I thought I needed to say that I don't consider myself an expert, I am just relying on what I have read in Scripture. Without Jesus speaking to us in a question and answer forum like the days of the disciples, all I have His word and what I have felt through prayer.
Let me just say this, take marriage serious, take your time before going into marriage. Approach marriage as a once in a lifetime occurance. Get counceling through a pastor before hand. Also, Take the pastorate seriously. Your pastor needs to be a man of God. It would be hard for Him to help you overcome a sin if He is suffering from unrepentant sin himself.

 

[David Cooke Jr]

Originally posted by FearNot:

Let me just say this, take marriage serious, take your time before going into marriage. Approach marriage as a once in a lifetime occurance. Get counceling through a pastor before hand.

Great advice for everybody.

 

[latterrain77]

A Pastor, Deacon, Church Leader or ANY other man that marries a divorced woman has committed adultery (Matt. 19:9). While such a person can surely be saved, a true Christian, and fully a member within the Body Of CHRIST - such a person should not have ANY authority whatsoever within the congregation, in matters spiritual. Any "pastor" who would insist on maintaining this authority in light of the very clear admonition of Matt. 19:9, not only sins, but exposes himself as self-promoter.

latterrain77

[ July 08, 2002, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]

 

[David Cooke Jr]

Originally posted by latterrain77:
A Pastor, Deacon, Church Leader or ANY other man that marries a divorced woman has committed adultery (Matt. 19:9). While such a person can surely be saved, a true Christian, and fully a member within the Body Of CHRIST - such a person should not have ANY authority whatsoever within the congregation, in matters spiritual. Any "pastor" who would insist on maintaining this authority in light of the very clear admonition of Matt. 19:9, not only sins, but exposes himself as self-promoter.

latterrain77

What is wrong with marrying a good Christian woman who's husband divorced her for no good reason? Often times people are the "defendant" in a divorce, and don't want one, but courts grant it anyway, merely because one party wants to leave.

 

[Daniel David]

David asked:

What is wrong with marrying a good Christian woman who's husband divorced her for no good reason?

Answer:

Did not Paul say that whoever is married is bound to his/her wife/husband? To remarry is to flagrantly deny both the words of Christ and Paul.

[ July 09, 2002, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: PreachtheWord ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by PreachtheWord:
Did not Paul say that whoever is married is bound to his/her wife/husband? To remarry is to flagrantly deny both the words of Christ and Paul.

Paul also said if an unbelieving spouse departs, the believing spouse is no longer bound. If someone claims to be a believer and insists on open disobedience by pursuing a divorce, they give evidence of being an unbeliever, and their partner is free from the bonds of that marriage.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by latterrain77:
A Pastor, Deacon, Church Leader or ANY other man that marries a divorced woman has committed adultery (Matt. 19:9). While such a person can surely be saved, a true Christian, and fully a member within the Body Of CHRIST - such a person should not have ANY authority whatsoever within the congregation, in matters spiritual. Any "pastor" who would insist on maintaining this authority in light of the very clear admonition of Matt. 19:9, not only sins, but exposes himself as self-promoter.

latterrain77

Please cite the scripture that says someone who was guilty of adultery in the past cannot hold a leadership position within the church. With regard to being above reproach, why does adultery necessarily tarnish someone permanently while other sins do not? Ex. fornication, lust (consummated by self gratification), lying, drunkenness, drug abuse, etc.

If we make the jump that you have then why not disqualify everyone who has ever committed a sexual sin? How many pastors could still stand in their pulpits if the standard demanded someone who had never lusted, never self-gratified, never fornicated in any public or private way?

The scripture does not disqualify adulterers. It disqualifies those who have more than one wife (woman), however this phrase is to be interpretted. I am not diminishing sinfulness but it appears to me that you are extending the scriptures to say more than they say without building a sufficient proof.

 

[GODSMAN02]

Well Im an aspiring minister but I dont know much about this.Im just here to read what the people respond with.Its a very good question and I guess In a nut shell Im just being nosy((smile)).

 

[Daniel David]

Pastor Larry, I am not usually the one to disagree with you. We are usually together on everything (especially since the amills are still loose ). However, on this point, I find you argument weak and not your best work. I can usually count on a scholarly answer every time you post. I both appreciate and have learned from you. So I offer the following as a position.

1. Luke 16:18 calls all remarriage after divorce adultery.

2. Mark 10:11-12 call all remarriage after divorce adultery whether it is the husband or the wife who does the divorcing.

3. Mark 10:2-9 and Matthew 19:3-8 teach that Jesus rejected the Pharisees' justification of divorce from Deuteronomy 24:1 and reasserted the purpose of God in creation that no human being separate what God has joined together.

4. Matthew 5:32 does not teach that remarriage is lawful in some cases. Rather it reaffirms that marriage after divorce is adultery, even for those who have been divorced innocently, and that a man who divorces his wife is guilty of the adultery of her second marriage unless she had already become an adulteress before the divorce.

5. l Corinthians 7:10-11 teaches that divorce is wrong but that if it is inevitable the person who divorces should not remarry.

6. l Corinthians 7:39 and Romans 7:1-3 teach that remarriage is legitimate only after the death of a spouse.

7. Matthew 19:10-12 teaches that special Christian grace is given by God to Christ's disciples to sustain them in singleness when they renounce remarriage according to the law of Christ.

8. Deuteronomy 24:1-4 does not legislate grounds for divorce but teaches that the "one-flesh" relationship established by marriage is not obliterated by divorce or even by remarriage.

9. l Corinthians 7:15 does not mean that when a Christian is deserted by an unbelieving spouse he or she is free to remarry. It means that the Christian is not bound to fight in order to preserve togetherness. Separation is permissible if the unbelieving partner insists on it.

10. 1 Corinthians 7:27-28 does not teach the right of divorced persons to remarry. It teaches that betrothed virgins should seriously consider the life of singleness, but do not sin if they marry.

11. The exception clause of Matthew 19:9 need not imply that divorce on account of adultery frees a person to be remarried. All the weight of the New Testament evidence given in the preceding ten points is against this view, and there are several ways to make good sense out of this verse so that it does not conflict with the broad teaching of the New Testament that remarriage after divorce is prohibited.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Preach the Word,

Thank you for your kind comments. I understand where you are coming from and understand the issues involved. In the bottom line, we have to submit the understanding of some passages to others. For instance, do the shorter Jesus quotations (withtout the exception) overrule the longer ones or should the shorter ones be read as a concise statement edited for the writer's purposes? I lean towards the latter.

How should the exception clause be read? There are different legitimate ways to read it. You know where I come down on that.

How does Paul's words fit in? Paul clearly allowed for divorce and while he recommends not remarrying, it is not exegetically foolproof to assert that he categorically forbids it.

Additionally, you have the OT where remarriage after divorce was permitted and where divorce was even commanded. In the bottom line, what takes precedence?

I am not totally comfortable with my position, but I am more comfortable with mine that I am with yours ... which is why I hold it. I would not give categorical approval for remarriage after divorce; but neither would I give a categorical denial. There are different situations that must be handled differently.

Here is what looks like an interesting article from a well known "No divorce-no remarriage" spokesman who has changed his position. I have not read it fully since I was just made aware of it not more than 15 minutes ago. Check it out: Jesus on Divorce: How my Mind Has Changed - William Heth

 

[latterrain77]

Originally posted by David Cooke, Jr.:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by latterrain77:
A Pastor, Deacon, Church Leader or ANY other man that marries a divorced woman has committed adultery (Matt. 19:9). While such a person can surely be saved, a true Christian, and fully a member within the Body Of CHRIST - such a person should not have ANY authority whatsoever within the congregation, in matters spiritual. Any "pastor" who would insist on maintaining this authority in light of the very clear admonition of Matt. 19:9, not only sins, but exposes himself as self-promoter.

latterrain77

What is wrong with marrying a good Christian woman who's husband divorced her for no good reason? Often times people are the "defendant" in a divorce, and don't want one, but courts grant it anyway, merely because one party wants to leave.</font>[/QUOTE]David. Thank you for your thoughts. The answer starts with Matt. 5:32 (also Luke 16:18, Matt 19:9). There, the LORD states plainly, that a man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery. The Biblical language is very clear, to the point, unambiguous and easily understood. Assuming the verse is true (which I believe it is) then it logically follows that a Pastor, Deacon or any other man who violates this principle, is committing adultery (as per the text). If so, then the next question arises; "is a person living in open adultery Biblically able to be (or remain) a Pastor in a congregation?" I say the answer is no.

1-Tim. 3 sheds additional light on the related subject (though not specifically to the original question raised). It's still worth studying. As to your question about a divorced person who "did not want" the divorce, Roman 7:2-3, 1-Cor. 7:39, 1-Cor. 7:10-11 and others shed some light on this. These verses should be a cause of hope and inspiration for the estranged spouse. Of course, it is always BEST to take marriage very seriously in the first place. Far greater care should be emphasized in the Christian courting process.

One last thought. A divorced party who did NOT want the original divorce, would not logically have any desire to marry another person. How could they still want the marriage with their original spouse, yet seek to be married to another spouse? Thank you again David.

latterrain77

[ July 09, 2002, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]