pastoral expectations

[Herald]

Outside of administrative duties and preaching outside the church at revivals, what on that list is unreasonable expectation? If one person cannot handle it, they should follow the biblicap model of a plurality of elders. Where in the Bible is the qualification of an elder to include 20 hours of sermon prep time?

How serious do you take preaching the Word of God? An elder's (a pastor is an elder) primary jobs are to labor in the Word, prayer, to protect the church from error.

I take James' admonition seriously. Preaching/teaching is serious stuff. The preacher is accountable to God. 15-20 hours is about right. Where is it in the Bible? If we use that reasoning why not a 30 second sermon? After all, where is it in thr Bible?

 

[Revmitchell]

How to preserve your pastor

So what are some things other church leaders and church members can do to avoid this “regret?”

First, everyone should understand the dynamic of “expectations” and be ready to control the damaging effects of their unmet expectations. Rather than being quick to ask, “What happened?” we should all ask “How can I help?” and “What can I do to assist the man we have called as our shepherd become all that God would have him be in our midst given his spiritual gifting?”

Second, the pastor himself must be quick to help set expectations by not trying to muddle through his weaknesses (faking it/keeping up appearances). Instead, he should be quick to admit his shortcomings and to ask for help. If people begin to grumble about the quality of the preaching, he should admit that additional coursework or coaching from a more gifted preacher would be helpful so that his preaching will improve in order to meet the real needs of worshippers. The same is true, of course, for every area of ministry as well.

Third, church members need to undertake careful self-examination and question their own spiritual maturity so that they can be sure they are ready to commit to a shepherd who doesn’t just live to please them. The pastor is called to please God and guide the sheep even when the sheep (church members) don’t like where God’s Word may be leading them. That is what makes pastoring very different from a “job.” The shepherd’s call requires him to lay down biblical principles that will guide the church. Frequently such principles will clash with practical reality, but the pragmatic must never be elevated above the biblical ideal (the eternal truth of God’s Word).

And finally, everyone must exercise the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (Galatians 5:22-23). Being intentional about your faith can preserve your pastor. Helping him model these spiritual qualities by modeling such behavior ourselves can set the right kind of expectations that should govern life in our churches.

Too many pastors have undertaken ministry with a belief that the apostle’s words at 1 Corinthians 9:22 “to become all things to all men” means they must be the expert in every area of church endeavor. We, the sheep who follow, must be very careful to not feed such an attitude by having and placing expectations on the men we call when we know that what they really need is a group of faithful followers who reward humility and joyously seek mutual ministry as partners.

http://redeemingchurchconflicts.wor...blem-of-misguided-and-misstated-expectations/

 

[webdog]

How serious do you take preaching the Word of God? An elder's (a pastor is an elder) primary jobs are to labor in the Word, prayer, to protect the church from error.

I take James' admonition seriously. Preaching/teaching is serious stuff. The preacher is accountable to God. 15-20 hours is about right. Where is it in the Bible? If we use that reasoning why not a 30 second sermon? After all, where is it in thr Bible?

An elder needs to know how to teach, and obviously know the Bible. Nowhere are they told to give speeches. We are all commanded to preach the Gospel, BTW. Loboring in the word, prayer and keeping error out us NOT the same thing as sermon prep.

I recall the apostles being lead by the Spirit in their sermons.

 

[Mexdeaf]

An elder needs to know how to teach, and obviously know the Bible. Nowhere are they told to give speeches. We are all commanded to preach the Gospel, BTW. Loboring in the word, prayer and keeping error out us NOT the same thing as sermon prep.

I recall the apostles being lead by the Spirit in their sermons.

They were apostles. We are not. We have to study with the help of the Holy Spirit, of course.

Jesus' command: "When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say" was for them, not us.

 

[webdog]

They were apostles. We are not. We have to study with the help of the Holy Spirit, of course.

Jesus' command: "When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say" was for them, not us.

Bottom line is an elder needs to know how to teach. That comes by gifting, knowledge and the Spirit. I'm not saying there should be no preparation, but 20 hours?

 

[Revmitchell]

I think one of the areas where the church has suffered is that there has not been enough preaching/teaching on the role of pastors. So what happens is the church remains ignorant or holds a misunderstanding of that role and day to day activities of a pastor. We see a small example of that in this thread.

I think the reason for this is that to do so may be perceived as self serving. But we need to teach the whole counsel of God.

 

[webdog]

I think one of the areas where the church has suffered is that there has not been enough preaching/teaching on the role of pastors. So what happens is the church remains ignorant or holds a misunderstanding of that role and day to day activities of a pastor. We see a small example of that in this thread.

I think the reason for this is that to do so may be perceived as self serving. But we need to teach the whole counsel of God.

If that happened there would be a whole lot less pastors. Many pastors don't even get the role of pastor / CEO in today's corporate driven church.

 

[Herald]

Where is sermon preparation outlined in 1 Timothy 3? The Sermon prep should be the easy part if one is laboring in the word and knows the Bible. Nothing from that text is speaking of 'appeasing the shareholders', what many sermons are now in the corporate mindset church. Has nothing to do with sermonettes or grandiose speeches, BTW.

if one...knows the Bible... Really? REALLY?! I do not even know what "knows the Bible" means. I am always learning. I will know more tomorrow than I do today. I may be in error and come to the point where I repent and change my mind. You seem to have a low view of what constitutes biblical teaching.

 

[webdog]

if one...knows the Bible... Really? REALLY?! I do not even know what "knows the Bible" means. I am always learning. I will know more tomorrow than I do today. I may be in error and come to the point where I repent and change my mind. You seem to have a low view of what constitutes biblical teaching.

Semantical gymnastics and ad hominem aside, the average person would 'know' what I mean by someone 'knowing the Bible'.

Besides, doesn't your soteriology teach 'know' as strictly an intimate relationship? I recall that argument for 'depart from me, I never knew you'

 

[Iconoclast]

I'm not. The sermon is the focal point of the pastors job, and I don't see that anywhere in scripture where it is or should be. We've reduced the church to singing a handful of songs to worship, sipping grape juice and nibbling on tiny crackers as the Lords Supper, take mission trips to vacation resort type places, and expect full discipleship in a 30 minute speech. I'm not faulting any one side, everyone is at fault for what the church has become. I see my brothers and sisters who are the body and pastors 'do church' in other places in the world, and what the west has reduced it to has become pathetic, stroking egos of both the body and the pastor, and putting the dollar first and foremost. The fact on one of the other threads it was applauded that missions were cut from a budget over salaries while people are perishing everywhere is disgusting.

I've become hardened to what the church now is. The foolishness is thinking everything is as it should be.

Part of what you identify as problems here can be traced to a lack of preaching, and obeying that preaching.
On sermonaudio...most good sermons are in the 40-45 minute range.
Many cannot focus much past that because they do not come prepared to hear from God through the word preached.

One pastor said it this way...if he was going to labour at preparing and preaching the sermon, the saints need to be studying, praying and preparing themselves to be able to welcome and understand that sermon.
If they are going to lazy and disobedient to revealed truth, God is not goping to be mocked as they sit before Him as those in Ezekiels day;
31 And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.

32 And, lo, thou art unto them as a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice, and can play well on an instrument: for they hear thy words, but they do them not.

 

[webdog]

Part of what you identify as problems here can be traced to a lack of preaching, and obeying that preaching.
On sermonaudio...most good sermons are in the 40-45 minute range.
Many cannot focus much past that because they do not come prepared to hear from God through the word preached.

One pastor said it this way...if he was going to labour at preparing and preaching the sermon, the saints need to be studying, praying and preparing themselves to be able to welcome and understand that sermon.
If they are going to lazy and disobedient to revealed truth, God is not goping to be mocked as they sit before Him as those in Ezekiels day;
31 And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.

32 And, lo, thou art unto them as a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice, and can play well on an instrument: for they hear thy words, but they do them not.

I see the problem as a personal accountability issue in not wanting to be discipled or studied on what the Scriptures say. What any pastor says needs to be filtered through scripture. The quote you gave of the pastor is a little too haughty for my liking, like an infallible message will be given.

 

[Herald]

Semantical gymnastics and ad hominem aside, the average person would 'know' what I mean by someone 'knowing the Bible'.

That does not exactly speak well of the average person.

Besides, doesn't your soteriology teach 'know' as strictly an intimate relationship? I recall that argument for 'depart from me, I never knew you'

How is this solely about soteriology? Would you not agree that the pastor/elder is to proclaim the whole counsel of God? Have you ever done serious exegesis of the scriptures? Have you ever wrestled with God in prayer for wisdom in preparation for speaking to God's people in God's name? When the preacher says "thus sayeth the Lord" is that a trivial matter?

Perhaps there are gifted men who only need a few hours or minutes to whip up a dynamic message that will move sinners to repentance and build up the saints. The men I know pour themselves into the scriptures for 10-20 hours a week in preparation for 45-60 minutes on Sunday. Abilities vary, so the time spent varies accordingly. I just happen to think that your criticism of the hours spent preparing a message is way off base and displays an ignorance of what it means to handle the Word of God.

 

[Tom Butler]

Everything needs to be done through the veil of two things, the great commission and discipleship (which leads to the first). This is the priority and reason the church even exists.

The list was pretty good except for the two things I mentioned prior. I don't think there can be a most important thing as everyone is different and churches are made up of individuals. There needs to be flexibility on any given day / week. Prayer needs to be the catalyst for the order of importance. The Bible grants flexibility outside of the requirements given, which some use as mere suggestions. We don't even need the traditional sermons each and every week. How refreshing to only sing songs of adoration for an entire service. To share what God has been doing in the lives of others through testimonies at another. To break up into groups of 8 to sincerely pray for one another at another. To go as a church to an area in need and feed the hungry at another. To have a real Lords Supper...a meal together worshipping! To have a pastor pour out his heart to the congregation at another. To take up a collection of offerings to present to a family who lost a job, is sick, or losing their home...and not worry about the 'budget' of material things, salaries, etc...to meet the needs of one another! How refreshing! You get the idea, we have commercialized and marketed 'church' a specific way

Having been on a search committee, I understand what you are going through. If I can find my pages of notes from a few years back, I'll forward them on to you. Its a daunting task. Even in that you have to agree with the rest of those on the committee, and that can be futile and frustrating as they want to do church the way its always been done, are not open to change, hold the corporate mentality, and can turn things into a popularity contest. Preparing a description in itself is tough with such personalities.

Now, since we disagree on the governance model outlined in Scripture, I'm not sure my input would be that helpful. Praying that God does grant you and your team wisdom, though!

Thanks for your feedback. Our search committee realizes that we need to "think outside the box." Your suggestions are helpful to me. I welcome any other ideas you want to share.

 

[saturneptune]

After reading a couple current threads, it's glaringly obvious that many church members have misguided expectations of pastors. From what I gather, pastors should somehow preach, teach, mow the grass, visit the sick, evangelize the lost, coddle the members, repair the church building, immediately call any member who misses a service, AND do so without a salary because after all, he should have a "real" job. He is to work 40-plus hours a week for the church and another 40 at his "real" job, while neglecting his wife and kids. If they grow up to abandon the faith, why, that's no concern of the church. Oh no, the pastor's primary goal in life is to meet all the demands of the body.

The deacon's job is to SUPERVISE the pastor and make sure he EARNS any pittance paid him. Above all, the pastor should be humble and poor.

Folks, it's time we take a sincere, realistic look at what we expect of our pastors and then apply those expectations to OURSELVES and our own families. Before we complain about our shepherds, we need to take a good look at our own behavior and see how WE can better support our churches and how WE can encourage and uplift our pastors instead of complaining, condemning, and tearing down.

There is no subject that has been a pet peeve of mine over the years more than this one. It goes beyond pastors to those who serve the church while most of the group include lazy, pew sitting slobs whose entire contribution to the local church is to complain.

It usually takes several forms. For example, someone in this category in the hospital may complain that the pastor or church members did not visit them enough. My question to them would be, how often did you visit others in the hospital?

If the van pulls up too early or too late to pick up someone, my question to them would be, how often did you drive a van route when you were younger?

If someone complains the pastor speaks too loud or too softly, or the audio system does not work right, my question to them would be, how often have you spoken before the church, and did you ever volunteer to work the sound system?

When they complain about empty pews, my question to them is, how often did you get out and visit?

When they complain about low rates of baptisms or new members, my question to them is how many have you invited to church in the last decade or told others about Jesus? Usually zero.

One of the things complainers and pew sitters are best at is gossip, so my question to them is, do you ever shut up?

I do not claim to know what it like to be a pastor, as I have never been one, nor will I ever be one. But I do know this from being in charge at other jobs. It is the type of job that is lived 24 hours a day. A pastor is responsible for as many church members as he has spiritually, to encourage, edify, and numerous other areas. He is a man who must generate self encouragement as he sees the number helping the church vs the number that are not. I do know a pastor is a job of great responsibility, and the complainers do not have a clue what this man is going through.

 

[Tom Bryant]

There is no subject that has been a pet peeve of mine over the years more than this one. It goes beyond pastors to those who serve the church while most of the group include lazy, pew sitting slobs whose entire contribution to the local church is to complain.

It usually takes several forms. For example, someone in this category in the hospital may complain that the pastor or church members did not visit them enough. My question to them would be, how often did you visit others in the hospital?

If the van pulls up too early or too late to pick up someone, my question to them would be, how often did you drive a van route when you were younger?

If someone complains the pastor speaks too loud or too softly, or the audio system does not work right, my question to them would be, how often have you spoken before the church, and did you ever volunteer to work the sound system?

When they complain about empty pews, my question to them is, how often did you get out and visit?

When they complain about low rates of baptisms or new members, my question to them is how many have you invited to church in the last decade or told others about Jesus? Usually zero.

One of the things complainers and pew sitters are best at is gossip, so my question to them is, do you ever shut up?

I do not claim to know what it like to be a pastor, as I have never been one, nor will I ever be one. But I do know this from being in charge at other jobs. It is the type of job that is lived 24 hours a day. A pastor is responsible for as many church members as he has spiritually, to encourage, edify, and numerous other areas. He is a man who must generate self encouragement as he sees the number helping the church vs the number that are not. I do know a pastor is a job of great responsibility, and the complainers do not have a clue what this man is going through.

I guess I see a different group of members. There are certainly some complainers, but the vast majority of people (average 110 thru a year) are people who would do anything they could if they know of a need.

All of our Bible study leaders are lay people. All of our leadership team is lay people. Our musicians are all lay people. Those who are not retired work at least a 40 hour week and then come to church to serve.

I am often beaten to the Hospital by a deacon or SS teacher on an emergency situation.

One of the problems with some of the threads about pastors is the presence of a "Poor Me!" attitude by some of us pastors. This wasn't forced upon me by God, this was a call of God that I have joyously answered and for over 30 years have enjoyed. It's like all jobs and callings, sometimes there are difficulties, but an overwhelming majority of the time has been nothing but Joy!

 

[webdog]

That does not exactly speak well of the average person.

Hardly.

How is this solely about soteriology?

Who said it was?

Would you not agree that the pastor/elder is to proclaim the whole counsel of God?

Absolutely.

Have you ever done serious exegesis of the scriptures?

Yes. Spent an entire year almost on hamartiology alone.

Have you ever wrestled with God in prayer for wisdom in preparation for speaking to God's people in God's name?

Can't say I 'wrestled' with Him, but I have done preparation in teaching.

When the preacher says "thus sayeth the Lord" is that a trivial matter?

Depends on what he discussing. I've heard plenty of preachers claim God's truth when it was anything but. Just because I say thus saith the Lord doesn't mean He saith it.

Perhaps there are gifted men who only need a few hours or minutes to whip up a dynamic message that will move sinners to repentance and build up the saints. The men I know pour themselves into the scriptures for 10-20 hours a week in preparation for 45-60 minutes on Sunday. Abilities vary, so the time spent varies accordingly. I just happen to think that your criticism of the hours spent preparing a message is way off base and displays an ignorance of what it means to handle the Word of God.

I haven't criticized anyone. Based on the role of a shepherd, it is not to spend half of their time delivering a single message to a flock. My pastor spends one day in preparation and preaches for 45 minutes. For someone to tell me they need 3 extra days more on average leads me to question their knowledge of the Bible.

 

[Rippon]

most of the group include lazy, pew sitting slobs whose entire contribution to the local church is to complain.

my question to them is, do you ever shut up?

With your godless attitude it is a wonder you are a church officer. You need to put a bit in your mouth.

 

[saturneptune]

With your godless attitude it is a wonder you are a church officer. You need to put a bit in your mouth.

You are the exact model of what I am talking about. A talker but no action. I asked you a while back to stay away from my posts. That means shut up, for the second time. You can take your smart alec remarks, arrogance, and worship of Calvin, and stick all three where the sun does not shine, at a 253 degree angle.

 

[Herald]

For someone to tell me they need 3 extra days more on average leads me to question their knowledge of the Bible.

I quoted your last sentence because it accurately summarizes our differences. I can honestly say that I join with many other pastors I know personally who are willing to have their biblical knowledge questioned because of the time they spend laboring in the scriptures.

 

[Mexdeaf]

For someone to tell me they need 3 extra days more on average leads me to question their knowledge of the Bible.

Maybe they need three extra days of prayer and fasting in preparation. I usually spend from 6-10 hours studying and reading for a message and several more praying for it. But then there are times when I spend all week on a message because, well- that's just the way it is some weeks.

I wouldn't put down someone because they spent that time in the Word. That's our job, after all.