Pastoral Qualification Quandary ??

[Pastor Larry]

Divorces do not happen in a vacuum. Just as marriage takes two, so does divorce. Marriage is more complex than "I was perfect and she just left."

Wisdom says that when a man is divorced, he needs to step aside at least temporarily. The strain of divorce on a life means that he will not be effectively able to manage and lead spiritually for a while. The emotional toll that it takes, even on the "innocent," is tremendous.

Even in an "innocent party" situation, there will be people who say, "What did he really do?" And it's not an unreasonable question. That is a contradiction of what it means to be blameless.

 

[canadyjd]

The above is supposition, not wisdom!

It is self-evident truth that a man going through a divorce (which God hates) is disqualified from the pastorate according to I Tim. 3., because he is no longer "above reproach" and has not managed his own household well.

peace to youraying:

 

[Revmitchell]

That is a contradiction of what it means to be blameless.

No its not. The word blameless is in reference to that which can be proved not simply suspicion.

 

[gb93433]

I know a man who was saved and called to Preach. During his ordeal he came to me to talk about his situation. His wife claimed to have also been saved, but had a very weak testimony and produced no fruit. The man took a small Church. He built it from about 10 regular attendees to over 50 in just a couple of years. His wife attended in the beginning, but later stopped going. She told him that if he didn't quit the ministry she would leave him, and he would be forced out due to divorce. When I learned she did this, I really began to doubt that she was saved. He told her he could not quit the ministry because he felt that would be quitting what God had called him to do.

That is a story which shows the value of proven leadership in doing ministry. Just because a man is called does not mean it is the right time at that moment. He may have to wait many years or not long. It is to be God's timing not ours. That man may be called to ministry but she may have needed time to learn to do ministry with her husband. He may have also needed time to learn to do ministry with her.

 

[gb93433]

The strain of divorce on a life means that he will not be effectively able to manage and lead spiritually for a while. The emotional toll that it takes, even on the "innocent," is tremendous.

You are so right. It is incredible the emotional ups and down they go through. There are times when they can hardly function and are like a little child.

 

[Pastor Larry]

No its not. The word blameless is in reference to that which can be proved not simply suspicion.

No it's not. There are many things which cannot be proved, but which can remove a man's blamelessness. That's why the Bible talks about his reputation with outsiders. It is what they think of him, not what they know.

 

[Revmitchell]

No it's not. There are many things which cannot be proved, but which can remove a man's blamelessness. That's why the Bible talks about his reputation with outsiders. It is what they think of him, not what they know.

You give a broad and impossible view of reputation. It certainly doesn't line up with scripture. No man pastor or otherwise can have a good reputation with everyone. Someone is going to get upset just simply because a pastor has preached the truth.

Reputation does not only refer to what people are suspicious of but it can and does refer to what has been proven and there is no need to include suspicion.

 

[dfi]

perhaps more questions

Greetings, I saw when I loged in that I had not been here for almost 2 years, but this thread got me interested, having read and re read the 7 pages of posts. let me add my 2 cents, which will likely only add more questions. I have some personal experience as my first pastor was divorced while I was a member of his church and I have watched him remarry move to another town, start another church and struggle for the last 10 years. I have also watched the church he pastored while going through his divorce struggle as well. Over the years I have pondered this situation long and hard and looked at all sides of the issue. I can't say that my mind is completly made up on things as I write this but I would like to offer up a few thoughts:

My first thought has to do with the I Timothy 3 qualifications. I have seen many people do the same thing that people on here have done, when they have said Bishop=Senior Pastor. When we draw this conclusion we then say the man can't serve as senior pastor but he can serve as...(some other staff position other than senior pastor) I tend to believe that this may indeed be a slippery slope. let me explain.

The Book of Philippians is widely accepted as being addressed to The Church at Philippi:

"THE Epistle to the Philippians is a friendly letter of encouragement
and exhortation addressed to a church which was in a prosperous
and happy condition. " Abbott New Testament Comentary

"SUMMARY OF PHILIPPIANS 1: Greetings to the Church and Its
Officers." Peoples New Testament commentary

Philippians 1:1 states the following "Paul and Timotheus, the servants of
Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:"

So Paul's letter to the church at Philippi is addressed to the Bishops (as in more than one) of that church. I am then forced to conclude that our pratice of equating the office of bishop with that of senior pastor has to be a mistake.

I am going to post this and work on my other thought.

 

[gb93433]

No it's not. There are many things which cannot be proved, but which can remove a man's blamelessness. That's why the Bible talks about his reputation with outsiders. It is what they think of him, not what they know.

I agree with you. I believe it is far more important than we can imagine. I never really understood it all that much until a few times something happened. In 2003 a man called me and asked me to finish his home. I knew the contractor on the job and asked the client about the issues he had with the contractor. I had heard the same thing from some subcontractors in the city too. He was beginning to get known as a person who was overcharging clients. I noticed that on jobs where the people have an excellent testimony as a Christian, God has opened many doors fore the gospel. In contrast where they have a poor testimony it is difficult to talk with people about Christ. In one case the home owners were godly people and I learned a lot about God's work. In almost every case I was able to share my faith with the workers. On other jobs things have been very different. It turns out that the workers would comment about the family and especially the wife and how she was so helpful and kind ot the workers. What she did and how she treated the workers was a tremendous example to me. What I heard being discussed among the workers was much different than what I had heard among some other workers.

In one town where I pastored just before I left a neighbor lady came to our home and thanked me for getting to know her husband. She is a Christian and he was not. He and I had many talks across the fence.

In one place where I worked it was not uncommon each month to see a church on the list of those whose accounts were delinquent. The church where I go now has an excellent reputation and it makes it much easier to talk with people without having to deal with poor things first. I have a few students who worked on the new building that was just finished and everything they said was good. I know how that made me feel and what I think of the church and its people.

 

[OldRegular]

It is self-evident truth that a man going through a divorce (which God hates) is disqualified from the pastorate according to I Tim. 3., because he is no longer "above reproach" and has not managed his own household well.

peace to youraying:

From some of the vitriol on this Forum I wonder how many of those who are pastors are "above reproach".

I have no way of knowing all who are pastors but some are self identified.

 

[Jim1999]

Maybe if we applied the rules advocated here as being scriptural, we could get rid of at least half the pastors supposedly serving in churches to-day.

There is one qualification. Is the person called of God to serve.....period? If they have a good educational background, perhaps all the better.

Certainly some standards for people serving is listed in Timothy, but it is only talking about men. Also, because it says a "husband of one wife" does not mean he must be married. It is just ruling out multiple wives, which may have been a problem at that time in that culture.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[dfi]

second thought

My second thought on the subject is as follows, please bear in mind that this is oberservational in nature.

I mentioned that my first pastor remaried, moved to another state and started a new church. this church is now more than a decade old and I have been there on numerous occasions and know several families in the church.

What I have observed is this. the pastor remains to be one of the best Bible teachers I have ever been exposed to and becuase of this the church gets more than its fair share of visitors, the vast majority of which, when they find out about the pastor's divorce, leave never to return. the only people who have stayed are folks that have been divorced themselves. As I write this there is not one family in the church that is on their first marriage, some are on there third and forth (Deacons included) I realize that people need to be in church regardless of how many marriages they have but when you get 15 families together with all of their issues it can be a very caustic invironment to be in.

The pastor almost never preaches on home and family (for obvious reasons) and people continue to flounder. My assessment is that this would not be the case in this church if the pastor was still on wife #1

like i said in the begining, my two cents, with it you are still $3.98 away from something at starbucks

 

[Pastor Larry]

You give a broad and impossible view of reputation. It certainly doesn't line up with scripture. No man pastor or otherwise can have a good reputation with everyone. Someone is going to get upset just simply because a pastor has preached the truth.

That's not what it's talking about. It's talking about a man's character, and his is character well-received in the community. It's not talking about isolated instances or disgruntled people. It is talking about whether or not a man has the perceived moral authority by virtue of his character to minister the word.

When an accusation is made, do people say, "Yes, I can see that in him"? When an accusation is made, do people say, "Yes, he did that before. I am not surprised he did it again."

I can't imagine this is even questionable.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Maybe if we applied the rules advocated here as being scriptural, we could get rid of at least half the pastors supposedly serving in churches to-day.

We probably could and that would be a good thing.

There is one qualification. Is the person called of God to serve.....period?

Can you tell us where God said this?

Certainly some standards for people serving is listed in Timothy, but it is only talking about men.

Of course, it's only talking about men. They are the ones who are pastors. And that list of qualifications is more than "called of God to serve." In fact, as I read the list, I don't see "called of God to serve" anywhere there. Do you?

Also, because it says a "husband of one wife" does not mean he must be married. It is just ruling out multiple wives, which may have been a problem at that time in that culture.

Probably more likely ruling out womanizing. A man can be married to only one woman ("a husband of one wife") and be a serial adulterer and be disqualified. It is talking about moral faithfulness and purity.

 

[Jim1999]

So, you say, Called of God is not scriptural,,,,,,That explains all the nutcases that have entered ministry.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Pastor Larry]

So, you say, Called of God is not scriptural,,,,,,That explains all the nutcases that have entered ministry.

Jim, you have a strange way of not engaging the actual conversation.

I didn't called of God wasn't Scriptural. I asked you for your biblical support that it was the "one qualification ... Period." The Bible seems to indicate other qualifications. You seem to deny the necessity of other qualifications. I was asking for your scriptural support.

Personally, I think there are a lot of nut cases that are pastors. I am preparing to preach on that tomorrow from Jude 5-16 about how what to look for in teachers, how to recognize bad ones.

 

[gb93433]

I guarantee you that bad household management could drive a wife off. It has to at least be considered (whether or not it is applicable to this situation or not).

I don't think it is "dumping on" someone to say they need to step aside.

It can also drive the children away. I am sure every pastor has seen the children of a home where a tyrant is in the home as the "boss". The church should have exemplary leadership that glorifies God and gives no reason to bring condemnation on the church.

A friend of mine is a pastor for the same congregation that he once was a child in. He came to know Christ through his parents and attended the same church he now pastors. What an honor for a man to be selected as their pastor from among the people of his own church. Imagine the credibility he has among them. He told me that it is the best thing that ever happened to him. There are elderly people in that chruch who have known he and his family since he was born.

A divorced pastor should step aside. If the church decides to keep the pastor that is their business. A friend of mine was married to the mother of his children and then one time he asked me to preach for him. He was there to hear the sermon. Afterward I told him that something was wrong with his wife but I diod not know what it was. A few months later he found out that there was something seriously wrong. She had been online and involved in pornography. There wwas a time when she told him that she was going with her mom to visit relatives in Europe. He later found out that she did not go with her mom but went to shack up with a man in Europe she had met online. He told her to get tested before he would let her back. She refused and she left their home and family. He gave his resignation at the church and they refused his rresignation but told him to take some time off and they would take care of him by paying for counseling and give him a full salary. It was interesting what happened as a result. It changed his life and the church grew too. When I saw him the next time I saw a man who truly understood God's grace. It changed his children too.

 

[Jim1999]

Larry, you might be amazed at how close I was to all those oldtime fundamentalists in my hayday when we actually fought against modernism.

I was called a fundamentalist bymy liberal friends and a liberal by my fundamentalist friends. I learned to disregard labels of that sort and just make fun of them. I'm sorry, mate. Guess I am just getting too old now. There are a lot of strange applications of the Word that I see in here and outside, when what we need is balance and some adaptation with modernity. Sometimes a word only has meaning to the immediate audience. Hence all the translations and controversies.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Pastor Larry]

Larry, you might be amazed at how close I was to all those oldtime fundamentalists in my hayday when we actually fought against modernism.

You may have been very close. Today fundamentalists still fight enemies of the gospel. Some unfortunately fight friends of the gospel. But it seems to me, no offense intended, that you don't seem to understand fundamentalism. The fact that you "just make fun of them" is indication of that. "Getting old" is no excuse to make fun of things, particularly if you don't understand what the current state is. There is nothing to make fun of in biblical fundamentalism, though there is a lot that uses the name "fundamentalist" who have no claim to it. There is no doubt that we need balance and adaptation of application, but we need to be rigidly biblical.

Which returns us to the actual question: You said the one qualification for a pastor was to be called of God to serve, Period.

Do you have Bible for that? Do you think the list in 1 Timothy is not a qualification? Or a qualification that is negotiable?

 

[gb93433]

I was called a fundamentalist by my liberal friends and a liberal by my fundamentalist friends. I learned to disregard labels of that sort and just make fun of them.

I have had the same thing happen. One day I was out with a friend knocking on doors. We came to a door and a lady answered. She asked me if I was a fundamentalist. Before I could say a word my friend told her that I make the fundamentalists look like liberals. He did that on purpose as if to have a little fun. She was dumbfounded and did not know what to think. Then he went on to explain what he meant. It was certainly good for a laugh.

When I do a serious study of an issue where there are people on both sides I seldom find one to be wrong and the other right but usually it is something quite different. It can be that some of each is right or none of them are right. What I have come to the conclusion is that people are quick to jump on the bandwagon before studying it for themselves. I was amazed at how many times people in the congregation would tell me, "Just tell us what we need to know." They did not always appreciate it when I took them down the road of how I arrived at a particular interpretation when there were godly people who disagreed..