Pastors and Elders & Bishops

[Salty]

As Baptists, we often use the term "Pastor" to indicate (usually) the one individual in charge of church.
Lets make this thread:

1) What title should the "main leader" of a church?
2) How soon should a church have elders
3) Should decisions be made by majority vote of the elders?
4) other discussion about pastor vs elder rule?

It has been suggested to "follow your Church Bylaws"
For the purpose of this discussion please answerer how you would write the By-laws
then make any comment you feel would explain your answer

 

[Ben1445]

As Baptists, we often use the term "Pastor" to indicate (usually) the one individual in charge of church.
Lets make this thread:

1) What title should the "main leader" of a church?

I’m content with Pastor. It gives the idea as it should have pastoral, tending sheep.

pas•to•ral l'pastar (a)l, pastôr (a)I|
adjective
1 (especially of land or a farm) used for or related to the keeping or grazing of sheep or cattle: scattered pastoral farms.

• associated with country life: the view was pastoral, with rolling fields and grazing sheep.
• (of a work of art) portraying or evoking country life, typically in a romanticized or idealized form.

2 (in the Christian Church) concerning or appropriate to the giving of spiritual guidance: pastoral and doctrinal issues | clergy doing pastoral work.

2) How soon should a church have elders

This is my original question. Sorry for the diversion.

3) Should decisions be made by majority vote of the elders?

Decisions should ultimately be made based upon the bylaws or documents of the church. If you don’t have anything in writing, you are headed for a monarchy or oligarchy in someone’s opinion eventually.

4) other discussion about pastor vs elder rule?

 

[Ben1445]

I can't help the feeling that you are being either a bit dense or unnecessarity argumentative.

I have been pushing a bit extra for an explanation. It may have appeared to be dense. But I stand by what I said. I didn’t make it up for a reaction.

However, in case I haven't been clear, This is my understanding: a pastor is an elder/overseer/bishop. I am concerned that there should ideally be more than one of these in every church, so that there is accounability. In my church, there is a pastor (due to step back in April, an assistant pastor (due to take over in April) and two elders, of whom I am one. There are also three deacons. My aim when I became an elder was to support the pastor, to provide a sounding-board for his ideas, to bring my own thoughts to him and to bring any misbehaviour before the church (never happened).
All elders are equal, but IMO the pastor should be primus inter pares (first among equals). Some years ago, I was in a church where there was one pastor/elder. When he retired, I was one of five deacons running the church, and each of us had his own idea about how a church should be run. It was hopeless! I left when two of my colleagues squared up to one another and threatened to beat each other up! There has to be someone with authority, but also a team to support him and to hold him accountable.

We have a small church. It would require 3/4 of the congregation to remove the pastor.
In other words, the pastor is accountable to the people. But whatever is causing the pastor to be removed, whether health issues or error or sin, it requires a serious group of the members who understand the gravity of the situation, not just a 50/50 split on whether or not to paint or paper the walls. And it requires weeks of announcements to be sure that members know it’s coming. It is not a spur of the moment decision.
There should be some form of accountability in every church.
I am sorry to hear about your experience. Problems in past churches tends to make one wary of their next church. I know it by experience. But there really is no church without problems as long as it has people.
I think any congregation should have a plan in place for the removal of a pastor if necessary. There must be teeth in it or there is no actual accountability. Every governing body should have a chair. This includes deacons, trustees, elders or whatever your equals are.

I appreciate your explanation. It is helpful to know what you mean.
It is not an easy thing to apply, and as you said, it may not even be possible in the case of small churches.

Philippians 2:3
Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Matthew 20:26
But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
Matthew 20:27
And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

 

[Dave G]

1) What title should the "main leader" of a church?

I think many professing Christians ( especially nowadays ) are used to a hierarchy, such as what we see in militaries and police organizations...
Which the Lord said shall not be the way that things operate among us as believers ( Matthew 20:24-28 ).

"Pastor / bishop" is a spiritual elder within the group who serves as a shepherd, watching over the Lord's flock.

As I see it, there should never be a single man determining anything within an assembly of God's people;
Christ is the Leader.

2) How soon should a church have elders

As soon as the Holy Spirit lays His wishes upon the group.
He is the one who makes them His overseers ( Acts 20:28 ).

3) Should decisions be made by majority vote of the elders?

Yes, but it shouldn't be a majority vote.
The elders should all come to an agreement ( after seeking the Lord's will ) as one on any matter, as the wisdom that comes from the Lord should never be "outvoted".

4) other discussion about pastor vs elder rule?

Looking at the book of Acts, I don't see "one man rule" practiced in the early churches like I saw growing up in certain circles...
I see believers deferring to the decisions of the elders ( plural ), specifically those who are spiritually elder within the group.

In other words, being spiritually elder is what should qualify a man as an "elder".

 

[Dave G]

It has been suggested to "follow your Church Bylaws"
For the purpose of this discussion please answerer how you would write the By-laws
then make any comment you feel would explain your answer

I don't see anywhere in the the Bible that the early churches ( and how the Lord organized them ) had anything resembling modern "bylaws".
I think that this practice is something that has gradually arisen over the years, out of the legal workings of this world...and its ways should not be brought into the churches.

That said,
I hold that all members of a local assembly of God's people should be subject to what His word alone says... on all matters of conduct, practice and doctrine.

 

[Van]

As Baptists, we often use the term "Pastor" to indicate (usually) the one individual in charge of church.
Lets make this thread:

1) What title should the "main leader" of a church?
2) How soon should a church have elders
3) Should decisions be made by majority vote of the elders?
4) other discussion about pastor vs elder rule?

It has been suggested to "follow your Church Bylaws"
For the purpose of this discussion please answerer how you would write the By-laws
then make any comment you feel would explain your answer

1) The title should be "Elder/Senior Pastor" This puts in on equal footing with the other governing Elders, not above or below.

2) When a new local "church body" is planted (formed) the members should choose Elders (at least 3) to govern the church but reporting to and accountable to the voting members of the church.

3) Our Elders sought to arrive at more than a simple majority, but rather a consensus. However, if push came to shove, then a majority ruled.

4) I a plurality of Elders are not governing the church, then it is not following the NT model. We are to honor the Elders (plural) who govern well. 1 Timothy 5:17. Why a minimum of 3? Because we are not to accept the testimony on one person against an Elder, so we need two against one to avoid he said, he said standoffs.

5) By-laws should make clear, final authority for all church business belongs to the voting members. They can hire and fire any staff member including the Senior Pastor, Associate Pastors, and any or all Elders. That is the NT model.

6) Our "by-laws" reserve certain decisions to the voting members, such as hiring and firing the Pastors and the sale or purchase of real estate, but leave the day to day decisions to the board of Elders which includes our Pastor and at least in the past one of our Associate Pastors. But the majorly of Elders were laymen, so compensation was not self serving.

 

[Ben1445]

I don't see anywhere in the the Bible that the early churches ( and how the Lord organized them ) had anything resembling modern "bylaws".
I think that this practice is something that has gradually arisen over the years, out of the legal workings of this world...and its ways should not be brought into the churches.

That said,
I hold that all members of a local assembly of God's people should be subject to what His word alone says... on all matters of conduct, practice and doctrine.

Pardon me for asking.
It sounds good to say it that way, but when it comes to applying it, it is not so simple. For example,
Do you wait for Titus to choose your elders, or do you have a plan for it without having to wait for the resurrection of Titus?

Titus 1:5
For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

 

[Salty]

as stated before bylaws is a legal thing for today. Sure, a church could agree verbally how to run a church on specifics (eg --vote fro new pastor 1,80,75,66.50%) but when it came to utilize that agreement - some may remember a different agreement!