Paul’s Response to the Thessalonians Tells us the Nature & Timing of the 2nd Coming

[revmwc]

Look at Revelation 21: 27. The new Jerusalem is the New Covenant just expressed as a city the same way Ezekiel...

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Doesn't appear to be a new covenant here, So let's see verse 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Sounds like the eternal home of all who are written in the Lamb's book of life, so God promises to ALL who are believers in Jesus a New Eternal home, which will sit upon the new earth and have no sun or moon, by the way we should be living in this by your teaching. Since This follows Christ return and His 1000 year reign in the Messiniac Kingdom, this is where we should already be living.

 

[Logos1]

The new Jerusalem is the New Covenant

It’s really very easy to see that the New Jerusalem of Revelation is simply a description of the New Covenant. Just think about what the bible has building toward all along through the course of the entire bible—the New Covenant i.e. Chrisianity. Just when it reaches its climax at the very end do you think it is going switch gears without any warning and make this drastic change on you. You have just been taught that the New Jerusalem is heaven or a new earth, etc and never really stopped to think about it. The bible never mentions its goal as being a city--the bible is not about cities. It’s about restoring man’s relationship with God—how to have the right relationship with God. This is a spiritual journey not a journey to a literal city.

The glorious description of the New Jerusalem is done because this is the unveiling of the moment waited for—the prize. Not just any language would do here. It needs to be as glorious and magnificent as possible.

Look at the specifics here in ch 21. There is no sanctuary or temple v22 because temples are left behind in the old Covenant. They are not part of the New Covenant. V 23 – 26 put the Lamb, Christ of course, at the center of the New Jerusalem just like Christ is at the center of the New Covenant—it is simply using language descriptive of a city.

V. 27 says nothing profane will enter, no one who does what is vile or false. This is those who haven’t accepted Christ.

Ch. 22 v1—the reference to the living wates—Christ called himself the living water.

V. 3 Thee shall no longer be any curse—Christ’s victory over sin death, the curse. Sin no loner separates man from God.

Going back to the beginning of Ch 21 when it says the first earth has passed away means the Old Covenant of course.

V. 3 Says God is dwelling with men and he will live with them and they will be His people. This is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is the fulfillment of the verse which says God will tabernacle with men.

When v 4 says death exists no longer it is referring to sin death not physical. Death, the curse of sin death no longer separates man from God.

When it says there will be no crying because the previous things have passed away it is referring to the passing of the Old Covenant and that there will be no grief at its passing away because the New Covenant is better. This selling the Jewish people on the fact that the New Covenant is better than the Old. This is not a reference to heaven and saying there will be no crying there as is commonly stated. When you read the verses around it for context and don’t read this verse in isolation then it becomes clear.

The verses that go on to give the dimensions of the New Jerusalem describe a cube which is what the Holy of Holies was in the temple. God’s presence was in the Holy of Holies and Christ is at the center of the New Covenant and the Holy Spirit indwells men.

If you have ever read some of Tom’s work he stated that in the end God was not about building temples but a people and the same applies here in the end God is not about building cities, but a people.

I’ll be away for a few days so don’t expect me to reply to any posts in the next few days.

 

[revmwc]

It’s really very easy to see that the New Jerusalem of Revelation is simply a description of the New Covenant. Just think about what the bible has building toward all along through the course of the entire bible—the New Covenant i.e. Chrisianity. Just when it reaches its climax at the very end do you think it is going switch gears without any warning and make this drastic change on you. You have just been taught that the New Jerusalem is heaven or a new earth, etc and never really stopped to think about it. The bible never mentions its goal as being a city--the bible is not about cities. It’s about restoring man’s relationship with God—how to have the right relationship with God. This is a spiritual journey not a journey to a literal city.

The glorious description of the New Jerusalem is done because this is the unveiling of the moment waited for—the prize. Not just any language would do here. It needs to be as glorious and magnificent as possible.

Look at the specifics here in ch 21. There is no sanctuary or temple v22 because temples are left behind in the old Covenant. They are not part of the New Covenant. V 23 – 26 put the Lamb, Christ of course, at the center of the New Jerusalem just like Christ is at the center of the New Covenant—it is simply using language descriptive of a city.

V. 27 says nothing profane will enter, no one who does what is vile or false. This is those who haven’t accepted Christ.

Ch. 22 v1—the reference to the living wates—Christ called himself the living water.

V. 3 Thee shall no longer be any curse—Christ’s victory over sin death, the curse. Sin no loner separates man from God.

Going back to the beginning of Ch 21 when it says the first earth has passed away means the Old Covenant of course.

V. 3 Says God is dwelling with men and he will live with them and they will be His people. This is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is the fulfillment of the verse which says God will tabernacle with men.

When v 4 says death exists no longer it is referring to sin death not physical. Death, the curse of sin death no longer separates man from God.

When it says there will be no crying because the previous things have passed away it is referring to the passing of the Old Covenant and that there will be no grief at its passing away because the New Covenant is better. This selling the Jewish people on the fact that the New Covenant is better than the Old. This is not a reference to heaven and saying there will be no crying there as is commonly stated. When you read the verses around it for context and don’t read this verse in isolation then it becomes clear.

The verses that go on to give the dimensions of the New Jerusalem describe a cube which is what the Holy of Holies was in the temple. God’s presence was in the Holy of Holies and Christ is at the center of the New Covenant and the Holy Spirit indwells men.

If you have ever read some of Tom’s work he stated that in the end God was not about building temples but a people and the same applies here in the end God is not about building cities, but a people.

I’ll be away for a few days so don’t expect me to reply to any posts in the next few days.

To see it as just a new covenant means to ignore Peter's writing that:
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Coupling that with Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
John says the first heaven and earth passed away before New Jerusalem comes down and that would coincide with Peter saying they are burned with fervent heat, this is reference to the earth and the heavens we see and the second heaven. This is not a metaphorical or spiritual burning up of the earth but a literal.

Of course we see Isaiah say:
In chapter 65:
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

Again sounds like a literal dwelling place.
Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
God says He will make a New Heaven and a New Earth, these are not speaking of covenants although they are promises which is what a covenent is, so it is a covenant in the fact that God says He will create them.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband

This appears to be a literal coming down from God out of Heaven.

 

[thomas15]

dupe, sorry

 

[thomas15]

LOL, when you become a preterist we will rally on you sir Thomas

They will be saying there stands Sir Thomas of Preteristdom like a stonewall. Rally on Thomas boys.

No thanks, I don't want to take a slug from those who are trying to convince me that they are a friend of mine.

 

[Logos1]

To see it as just a new covenant means to ignore Peter's writing that:
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Coupling that with Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
John says the first heaven and earth passed away before New Jerusalem comes down and that would coincide with Peter saying they are burned with fervent heat, this is reference to the earth and the heavens we see and the second heaven. This is not a metaphorical or spiritual burning up of the earth but a literal.

Of course we see Isaiah say:
In chapter 65:
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

Again sounds like a literal dwelling place.
Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
God says He will make a New Heaven and a New Earth, these are not speaking of covenants although they are promises which is what a covenent is, so it is a covenant in the fact that God says He will create them.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband

This appears to be a literal coming down from God out of Heaven.

Well Rev I get back and I see you are still drudging up the same old tired response to not having any verses that say His return will be thousands of years in the future or a long time or a future generation. Still just desperately twisting not slack concerning his promises and trying to make that into something you can’t find in the bible. Face up to it all references to Christ’s return are near, soon, quickly, and the generation living at that time.

If Christ were returning a long ways into the future he would have said so, but he wasn’t it was to be soon and he said so over and over again.

Nor is there any promise of recreating a literal return of the Jews to Israel in the future thousands of years later. The present day state of Israel is just a political state and not in a covenant relationship with God. Their special status is gone. Paul was very explicit about that as in Ephesians 3:6 when he revealed the mystery he wrote about numerous times in the New Testament that the gentiles were equal with the Jews before God.

Even a evangelical study bible like the NLT study bible recognizes the temple related chapters in Ezekiel are just temple speak for the new order of Christianity.

They see the same thing in verses on Israel’s geography and relate it to the end of Revelation. They point out that the closing chapters of Revelation present the same message fulfilled in Christ inaugurating the spiritual reality that Ezekiel describes in the heavenly city.

They say the same thing about the Temple Architecture as theology that it the new temple being how the Holy Spirit dwells in us and our bodies.

I find it amazing that you do a fine job of identifying Old Testament passages that tie directly into Revelation’s New Jerusalem and fail to recognize it has a reference to the new covenant instead of a literal new Jerusalem.

Think about what Christ constantly spoke of—he never said he would build an early city or temple, but always spoke of the New Covenant. Surely you must know when he said destroy the temple he would build it back in 3 days that he was speaking in reference to his resurrection and what that represented in a new way of having a relationship with God through him and not a literal temple.

Remember Christ said his kingdom was not of this earth in John 18: 36 and His kingdom comes without observation Luke 17:20

 

[HankD]

Remember Christ said his kingdom was not of this earth in John 18: 36 and His kingdom comes without observation Luke 17:20

Don't forget verse 21

Luke 17

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not withobservation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.​

We enter the kingdom of God via the new birth:

Collossians 1

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:​

The Second Coming of Christ will indeed be visible:​

Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.​

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

HankD​

 

[revmwc]

Well Rev I get back and I see you are still drudging up the same old tired response to not having any verses that say His return will be thousands of years in the future or a long time or a future generation. Still just desperately twisting not slack concerning his promises and trying to make that into something you can’t find in the bible. Face up to it all references to Christ’s return are near, soon, quickly, and the generation living at that time.

If Christ were returning a long ways into the future he would have said so, but he wasn’t it was to be soon and he said so over and over again.

Nor is there any promise of recreating a literal return of the Jews to Israel in the future thousands of years later. The present day state of Israel is just a political state and not in a covenant relationship with God. Their special status is gone. Paul was very explicit about that as in Ephesians 3:6 when he revealed the mystery he wrote about numerous times in the New Testament that the gentiles were equal with the Jews before God.

Even a evangelical study bible like the NLT study bible recognizes the temple related chapters in Ezekiel are just temple speak for the new order of Christianity.

They see the same thing in verses on Israel’s geography and relate it to the end of Revelation. They point out that the closing chapters of Revelation present the same message fulfilled in Christ inaugurating the spiritual reality that Ezekiel describes in the heavenly city.

They say the same thing about the Temple Architecture as theology that it the new temple being how the Holy Spirit dwells in us and our bodies.

I find it amazing that you do a fine job of identifying Old Testament passages that tie directly into Revelation’s New Jerusalem and fail to recognize it has a reference to the new covenant instead of a literal new Jerusalem.

Think about what Christ constantly spoke of—he never said he would build an early city or temple, but always spoke of the New Covenant. Surely you must know when he said destroy the temple he would build it back in 3 days that he was speaking in reference to his resurrection and what that represented in a new way of having a relationship with God through him and not a literal temple.

Remember Christ said his kingdom was not of this earth in John 18: 36 and His kingdom comes without observation Luke 17:20

Matthew 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Two servants of the Lord one is faithful and working expectantly for His Lords return. The evil servant says His Lord has delayed His coming and begins to beat the fellowservants and eat and drink, but His Lord will return in an hour that is not aware. Sounds like Christ is saying that He will seem to be delaying His return but we are to be faithful servants. He shall return in a time in which the evil servant is unware He will return. This sounds like the Preterist saing He has already come He isn't returning so eat drink and be merry because the Lord has already come and you don't need to be concerned about being rewarded.

Luke 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

To us it seems a long time and to many they needed to develop a teaching about why He hasn't come and delayed. That teaching, preterism saying Christ is not going to return because He already has. Disregard all the promises given to the Chruch as far as rewards. Disregard the words of Paul that Christ would come and snatch those believers out, disregard 1 Corinthians 3 and the rewarding at the Bema Seat that won't happen because Chrisrt has come.

No thanks I believe in the imminent not immediate return of our Lord. He will come and as 1 Thessaloninas 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 that He will return we will meet Him in the Air and so will we ever be with the Lord. You can call it twisting Gods word but I haven't seen you untwist it. I haven't seen you interpret the 1000 years as one day and a day as 1000 years. Not the passage in Psalms that says "For a thousand years is as yesterday in thy sight" showing God's view of time. You just keep talking about a generation that will see the fulfillment of all the things mentioned in Matthew 24 and Luke 12 but missing the fact that the generation in 70 A.D. did not see the fulfillment and the Church has continued to exist instead of being taken out. But you must twist and contort scripture to mean the generation of the Apostles. When so much proof exist that they did not see all those tings fulfilled. Maybe all of us who are dispies missed the total fulfillment of all that so why don't you provide the proof of when all that was fulfilled. Proof from historical facts and history that show ALL mankind saw the fulfillment. That the believers in the churches at Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamus, Thyratira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicia saw the Lord return and went to be with Him as was promised. That they saw the New Heaven and Earth that they saw the sign of the Abomination Standing in the TEmple in Jerusalem. Let's take it a little further if Revelation was written pre-70 A.D. why was not the church in Jerusalem included in the list? You seem to have no answer but that others are twisting scripture becasue it goes against your belief.

I will continue to claim this verse:
2 Timothey 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

As long as I continue to look for and Love His appearing I have a crown of righteousness awaiting me at His return to snatch the Church away, you can claim no such promise. In fact with your belief there will be noone who recieves that crown yet Paul says it is laid up for ALL who Love His Appearing, that would include those of us today. Preterist must skip this verse as it no longer applies.

 

[revmwc]

Well Rev I get back and I see you are still drudging up the same old tired response to not having any verses that say His return will be thousands of years in the future or a long time or a future generation. Still just desperately twisting not slack concerning his promises and trying to make that into something you can’t find in the bible. Face up to it all references to Christ’s return are near, soon, quickly, and the generation living at that time.

If Christ were returning a long ways into the future he would have said so, but he wasn’t it was to be soon and he said so over and over again.

Nor is there any promise of recreating a literal return of the Jews to Israel in the future thousands of years later. The present day state of Israel is just a political state and not in a covenant relationship with God. Their special status is gone. Paul was very explicit about that as in Ephesians 3:6 when he revealed the mystery he wrote about numerous times in the New Testament that the gentiles were equal with the Jews before God.

Even a evangelical study bible like the NLT study bible recognizes the temple related chapters in Ezekiel are just temple speak for the new order of Christianity.

They see the same thing in verses on Israel’s geography and relate it to the end of Revelation. They point out that the closing chapters of Revelation present the same message fulfilled in Christ inaugurating the spiritual reality that Ezekiel describes in the heavenly city.

They say the same thing about the Temple Architecture as theology that it the new temple being how the Holy Spirit dwells in us and our bodies.

I find it amazing that you do a fine job of identifying Old Testament passages that tie directly into Revelation’s New Jerusalem and fail to recognize it has a reference to the new covenant instead of a literal new Jerusalem.

Think about what Christ constantly spoke of—he never said he would build an early city or temple, but always spoke of the New Covenant. Surely you must know when he said destroy the temple he would build it back in 3 days that he was speaking in reference to his resurrection and what that represented in a new way of having a relationship with God through him and not a literal temple.

Remember Christ said his kingdom was not of this earth in John 18: 36 and His kingdom comes without observation Luke 17:20

I know you see thae term in the bible quickly and soon and you think of it as that day. Here are the definitions of those words.

As quickly means: 1quick adj \ˈkwik\

Definition of QUICK
1: not dead : living, alive
2: acting or capable of acting with speed: as
a (1) : fast in understanding, thinking, or learning : mentally agile <a quick wit> <quick thinking> (2) : reacting to stimuli with speed and keen sensitivity (3) : aroused immediately and intensely <quick tempers>
b (1) : fast in development or occurrence <a quick succession of events> (2) : done or taking place with rapidity <gave them a quick look>
c : marked by speed, readiness, or promptness of physical movement <walked with quick steps>
d : inclined to hastiness (as in action or response) <quick to criticize>
e : capable of being easily and speedily prepared <a quick and tasty dinner>

Wow look fast in devlopment when the Lord comes fast the snatching away will happen fast.

Soon from Websters:
soon adv \ˈsün, especially New England ˈsu̇n\

Definition of SOON
1a obsolete : at once : immediately
b : without undue time lapse : before long <soon after sunrise>
2: in a prompt manner : speedily <as soon as possible> <the sooner the better> <no sooner said than done>
3archaic : before the usual time
4: in agreement with one's choice or preference : willingly <I'd just as soon walk as drive>
He will come promptly when He comes and the events of Revelation for those churches occured promptly.

Many places Christ spoke of His literal reign in the Kingdom too. You seem to be hung up on believing only One Kingdom is mentioned concerning Christ when there are in fact multiple Kingdoms mentioned.

 

[Logos1]

Don't forget verse 21

Luke 17

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not withobservation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.​

We enter the kingdom of God via the new birth:

Collossians 1

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:​

The Second Coming of Christ will indeed be visible:​

Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.​

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

HankD​

Welcome back Hank,

That is an excellent point about verse 21 about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and how it ties in with Ezekiel 40 and the new temple architecture representing the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Rev 1:7 obviously since those who pierced Him would see his coming then either they are alive today or he came back in their life time and we know they aren’t alive today. This verse forces a first century fulfillment all by itself.

 

[Logos1]

Rev you have never been more entertaining

Rev you are in excellent verse twisting form today.

The word quickly as used by Christ in Revelation Rev 22:20 in surely I come quickly is used 6 times in the gospels Matthew 5:25, 28:7, 28:8, Mark 9:39, 16:8, and John 11:29.

I’m sure if I used any of the other instances (like in Mark 16:8 where it says they went out quickly and fled from the sepulcher) and tried to argue that God’s use of the term is not the same as our use of the term or it really meant it took them a 1,000 years to run from the sepulcher that you would correctly protest that it was a blatant and gross misuse of the term quickly.

Yet you cherry pick when to have it mean thousands of years in to the future and when to mean right away. This is the kind of biblical foolishness that gives dispys a whacky image (another instance would be Darby’s great disappearing act (aka the rapture)which enjoys no biblical support whatsoever if you get right down to it).

And another little point on the great disappearing act that Darby and the dispys are so fond of—if Christ were really going to come snatch you away don’t you think he would have said so at least once, but here again you can’t find even one single verse that says he will snatch you away. It’s all smoke and mirrors and passage twisting that only fools those who don’t read their bibles closely.

I at least got a wonderful laugh here when you start twisting imminent return into thousands of years into the future and try to say it does not mean immediate. If you could only read your own material as any normal person does instead of applying your own creative dispy spin to it you would be persuaded by your own writings that Christ told no one he was going to delay his return for thousands and thousands of years.

This is just so laughable—no biblical support of a rapture, of a future generation seeing his coming, of his return being thousands of years into the future and yet you need to cling to it instead of searching for truth. Just entertaining it is.

Preach to us Rev.

 

[HankD]

Welcome back Hank,

That is an excellent point about verse 21 about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and how it ties in with Ezekiel 40 and the new temple architecture representing the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Rev 1:7 obviously since those who pierced Him would see his coming then either they are alive today or he came back in their life time and we know they aren’t alive today. This verse forces a first century fulfillment all by itself.

Not necessarily if this passage speaks of Israel as a nation.

Jesus told the leaders of the nation of Israel that the kingdom would be taken from them:

Matthew 21
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.​

This condition would continue for an undisclosed amount of time:

Luke 21

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.​

Today all may individually come - Jew or Gentile.​

John 1

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:​

Acts 13
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.​

As a nation, Israel to this very day is not a Christian nation and will not turn to their Messiah as a nation until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, then will come the day of the Lord and they will turn to Him.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.​

This is nation of which Revelation 1:7 speaks:

Zechariah 12
8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.​

Zechariah 14
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.​

HankD​

 

[Logos1]

Zechariah is an excellent description of the events of 70 AD

Good morning Hank,

The kingdom was taken away from the Jews and opened up to the gentiles in the coming of Christianity and we will never go back to the old covenant. It was meant to pass away. The Jews will never re-enter the old covenant. The land of Israel will never be occupied by more than a political state of Israel—never in the future by a people in a covenant relationship with God. He never promises to restore a covenant relationship with them.

In fact Christ said just the opposite in Matt 5:17 when he said he came to fulfill the law and prophets.

All men now can have a relationship with God through Christ both Jew and Gentile and there is no advantage to either according to Paul.

Just as there is no scripture where Christ says he will rapture anybody, nor any where he is coming back thousands of years in the future, there is no scripture where he restores a literal Israel to the land in the future. Obviously you have to look else where for fulfillment of Zechariah and 70 AD is the obvious answer dispys are just looking at it the wrong way.

Zechariah as we have covered before is an excellent description of the events of 70 AD.

 

[JesusFan]

Welcome back Hank,

That is an excellent point about verse 21 about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and how it ties in with Ezekiel 40 and the new temple architecture representing the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Rev 1:7 obviously since those who pierced Him would see his coming then either they are alive today or he came back in their life time and we know they aren’t alive today. This verse forces a first century fulfillment all by itself.

basically refers to the Jewish people still alive in Great tribulation period still to come, who will accept the messiah at His second coming, and Isreal will be reborn in a day, and fulfill prophecy of Ezekiel!

 

[Logos1]

A theory in search of supporting scripture

basically refers to the Jewish people still alive in Great tribulation period still to come, who will accept the messiah at His second coming, and Isreal will be reborn in a day, and fulfill prophecy of Ezekiel!

Just a fanciful theory - without scriptural support.

 

[HankD]

Good morning Hank,

The kingdom was taken away from the Jews and opened up to the gentiles in the coming of Christianity and we will never go back to the old covenant. It was meant to pass away. The Jews will never re-enter the old covenant. The land of Israel will never be occupied by more than a political state of Israel—never in the future by a people in a covenant relationship with God. He never promises to restore a covenant relationship with them.

In fact Christ said just the opposite in Matt 5:17 when he said he came to fulfill the law and prophets.

All men now can have a relationship with God through Christ both Jew and Gentile and there is no advantage to either according to Paul.

Just as there is no scripture where Christ says he will rapture anybody, nor any where he is coming back thousands of years in the future, there is no scripture where he restores a literal Israel to the land in the future. Obviously you have to look else where for fulfillment of Zechariah and 70 AD is the obvious answer dispys are just looking at it the wrong way.

Zechariah as we have covered before is an excellent description of the events of 70 AD.

So you say but there are just too many things which have to be "spiritualized" to make any sense of full preterism and its not just Zechariah but almost every single prohetic book has a promise to Israel from a God which cannot lie which is apart from His Old Covenant with them.

Zephaniah 3

14 Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.
15 The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.
16 In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.
17 The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

HankD​

 

[JesusFan]

Good morning Hank,

The kingdom was taken away from the Jews and opened up to the gentiles in the coming of Christianity and we will never go back to the old covenant. It was meant to pass away. The Jews will never re-enter the old covenant. The land of Israel will never be occupied by more than a political state of Israel—never in the future by a people in a covenant relationship with God. He never promises to restore a covenant relationship with them.

In fact Christ said just the opposite in Matt 5:17 when he said he came to fulfill the law and prophets.

All men now can have a relationship with God through Christ both Jew and Gentile and there is no advantage to either according to Paul.

Just as there is no scripture where Christ says he will rapture anybody, nor any where he is coming back thousands of years in the future, there is no scripture where he restores a literal Israel to the land in the future. Obviously you have to look else where for fulfillment of Zechariah and 70 AD is the obvious answer dispys are just looking at it the wrong way.

Zechariah as we have covered before is an excellent description of the events of 70 AD.

Big problem with this is thatper Apostle paul, jewish nation of that time predestined as whole to reject jesus Messiah, in order to graft in we gentiles by faith in jesus...

God planned isreal to reject Christ, haredened all but His faithful elect remnant...

God will deal with gentiles at this time, once Fulness of us brought into Body,than God will go back dealing with national isreal in last days

ALL of isreal alive at his return will get saved, as HS will be poured out unto the jewish people, fountain in city of jerusalem..

jews rejected messaih per God will and plan, but he did not fully reject them nor promises made to them!

NOT fanciful, ALL that biblical!

 

[Logos1]

Now there is some scipture I'd like to see

Big problem with this is thatper Apostle paul, jewish nation of that time predestined as whole to reject jesus Messiah, in order to graft in we gentiles by faith in jesus...

God planned isreal to reject Christ, haredened all but His faithful elect remnant...

God will deal with gentiles at this time, once Fulness of us brought into Body,than God will go back dealing with national isreal in last days

ALL of isreal alive at his return will get saved, as HS will be poured out unto the jewish people, fountain in city of jerusalem..

jews rejected messaih per God will and plan, but he did not fully reject them nor promises made to them!

NOT fanciful, ALL that biblical!

And exactly what scripture do you find that backs that up? I didn't see any posted here and I haven't seen any posted any where else either.

I find these scriptureless theories entertaining, but not serious.

 

[Logos1]

Preterism is full of literalism

So you say but there are just too many things which have to be "spiritualized" to make any sense of full preterism and its not just Zechariah but almost every single prohetic book has a promise to Israel from a God which cannot lie which is apart from His Old Covenant with them.

Zephaniah 3

14 Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.
15 The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.
16 In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.
17 The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

HankD​

Actually Hank I'm saying there is a lot of literal fulfillment in Preterism.

The attack on Jerusalem has a lot of literal aspects to it. It was a real attack that destroyed the temple and brought the Old Covenant to its end.

But remember what you don't have is any promises to Israel beyond the end of the Old Covenant.

Why would there be any reason to have any promise to Israel then--Paul tells us that the Jew and gentile are the same now.

The Jewish special arrangement was only part of the Old Covenant. It looks like you are arguing with Paul here--not me.

 

[JesusFan]

And exactly what scripture do you find that backs that up? I didn't see any posted here and I haven't seen any posted any where else either.

I find these scriptureless theories entertaining, but not serious.

Guess we need to reread Apostle paul and Romans 9-11 Eh?

and Zechariah 13:1 also?