Paul and Festus

[AndyMartin]

Your response is a cop out and non-answer.
I suspect you refuse to answer because you can see the problem, but your pride won't admit to being wrong.

no "cop out". Can you tell me how it is possible for Jesus to command the preaching of the Gospel of salvation from sins to "every human being", as in Mark 16:15, which is also accepted by Calvinists; and yet say that these same people who hear this Good News, are not allowed to believe, because God had not "predetermined" this? This looks like a very dishonest approach of presenting the Gospel to the whole world!

 

[AndyMartin]

Here's the interpretation I get from you, @AndyMartin.
You are saying that God is sovereign, but God purposely makes His will subservient to the human will so that man's will determines his own fate in salvation. God can do nothing to override the human will and must let man rule his own life. If man is going to be saved then man has to figure it out on his own and willfully choose his own fate. God has hamstrung Himself by bowing to the will of man.

That seems to be your argument.

Can you provide biblical support for God making His sovereign will subservient to the human will?

I answer you from Paul:

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12)

Can you see mans responsibility and God's Righteous Judgement? They REFUSE to believe the Truth, that they might be saved, and are damned for this. They condemn themselves by their rejection, and God adds to their judgement by encouraging them to believe their lie!

 

[MennoSota]

no "cop out". Can you tell me how it is possible for Jesus to command the preaching of the Gospel of salvation from sins to "every human being", as in Mark 16:15, which is also accepted by Calvinists; and yet say that these same people who hear this Good News, are not allowed to believe, because God had not "predetermined" this? This looks like a very dishonest approach of presenting the Gospel to the whole world!

God sovereignly tells his children to be his ambassadors in rebel lands.
God, by his sovereignty, chooses not to tell us who will or won't believe.
God never says that humans are not allowed to believe. (That is a fatal flaw of your making.) God says that no one seeks God. Not even one.
God says that He has predestined some who do not seek Him to become His children. This happens because God is a very gracious God.
What is dishonest in teaching what God, Himself, says in the Bible?

The only dishonesty is on your part when you claim that we say humans are not allowed to believe. You utterly fail to accept God's word when He tells you that no one seeks after God.

 

[MennoSota]

I answer you from Paul:

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12)

Can you see mans responsibility and God's Righteous Judgement? They REFUSE to believe the Truth, that they might be saved, and are damned for this. They condemn themselves by their rejection, and God adds to their judgement by encouraging them to believe their lie!

Of course they didn't receive it. They, like all humans, rebel against God. They don't seek God and they find God to be foolish. God must save them despite themselves. God must extend grace or no human would ever be saved from damnation.

 

[MennoSota]

Once again, @AndyMartin, which is greater...God's will or man's will?

 

[TCassidy]

Both. Christ has made the Atonement, and the sinner needs to go to Him in repentance to accept this.

I see. So, salvation is at least partly by works?

 

[Iconoclast]

Ah, you seem to be arguing from predestination, am I right? This then is a problem, as I see the Bible as saying that God wills that none perish. rejection of Jesus Christ and the Gospel concerning Him is what damns a person, not that God did not "prechose" then

the bible does not say that anywhere, God will send multitudes into second death.

 

[Iconoclast]

Both. Christ has made the Atonement, and the sinner needs to go to Him in repentance to accept this.

never is that language used in scripture...a sinner is never told to "accept" anything.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Guys, this bloke has cut bait and fled. Its been over 2 weeks since he was last on here. His ideologies melted like snow in a volcano.

 

[Revmitchell]

So, if rejecting Jesus is the sin that damns, how is that sin ever paid for?

If it was paid for on the cross then it is already forgiven.

If it was not paid for on the cross, there is no payment for that sin.

If you are saying it was paid for on the cross you are preaching universalism.

If you are saying it was not paid for on the cross you are preaching that nobody can ever be saved.

If you are saying that all you have to do is stop sinning that sin then you are preaching that the way of salvation is to just stop sinning.

This is the informal fallacies called "black or white" fallacy and "question begging". There are more reasonable options to consider therefore your point is not reasonable, and it assumes if sin was paid for it then also must be applied to all.

 

[Revmitchell]

I see. So, salvation is at least partly by works?

Again the informal black and white fallacy.

 

[MennoSota]

You don't provide an answer, but simply dismiss the question by claiming a fallacy made up by human reasoning.

If sin has been paid for all humans, why does it not apply to the one for whom sin has been pardoned? The application is in providing the payment. The contract is fulfilled.
Yet, now you present that there is in fact another layer to the contract.
Please present the other layer or layers you imagine are there.

This is the informal fallacies called "black or white" fallacy and "question begging". There are more reasonable options to consider therefore your point is not reasonable, and it assumes if sin was paid for it then also must be applied to all.