Paul Came Across Disciples of John the Baptist in Acts 19:1-7

[ChristB4Us]

This is important as this false teaching from Pentecostals & Charismatic circles can find its way into the Baptist churches where they misapply Acts 19:1-7 as if they were disciples of Jesus Christ that had not received the Holy Spirit yet but when reading with His wisdom, you can see they were never believers in Jesus Christ but disciples of John the Baptist's.

To understand what Luke was meaning by using the term "certain disciples" that Paul came across, we should keep in mind that there are 3 kinds of disciples in Jesus's days; the disciples of the Pharisees, the disciples of John the Baptist's, and the disciples of Jesus Christ.

Luke 5:33 And they said unto him, Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink?

So may the Lord help you keep that in mind when reading Acts 19:1-7

Acts 19:1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.

So Paul came across certain disciples but he did not know what kind. After Paul inquired of them about the Holy spirit, then Paul asked them of what water baptism they were under which was John the Baptist's.

So that told Paul they were disciples of John the Baptist's.

Paul then proceed to tell them about Jesus Christ Whom John the Baptist was preaching about.

Then they obviously believed in Jesus Christ for why they got water baptized in Jesus's name.

Pentecostals & Charismatics have been applying this reference as proof that saved believers, and even His disciples, do not always get the baptism with the Holy Spirit so as to promote saved believers to seek after that baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues which is an apostate calling denying the faith in Jesus Christ. This teaching and misapplication of Acts 19:1-7 may have crept into the Baptist churches and be aware of those that would take your eyes off of Christ to seeking a receiving of the Spirit by a sign.

Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.

39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith..... 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit; Galatians 2:22-23 Faith is received by the hearing of the word Romans 10:17 just as the Holy Spirit is received by the hearing of the word Acts 10:43-44, When no man can come to the Son unless the father draws him per John 6:44 as it is the father that reveals His son to us per Matthew 11:25-27 , then our believing in Jesus Christ is the manifested work of God per verse 21 of John 3:18-21.

So no believer needs a sign nor proof of having received the Holy Spirit when by coming to and believing in Jesus Christ, is a manifest work of God for why we can give the Father thanks in Jesus's name for so doing.

 

[Van]

Simple definition, only born anew believers are actually disciples of Christ. Lip service Christians, professing belief, may or may not be actual disciples, but the evidence is against them.

A person might have been "water baptized" [by immersion or other means in Christ's name] and still not be actually in Christ and born anew.

The Holy Spirit is received by being sealed in Christ, thus God must transfer a believer into Christ first, based on God crediting their faith as righteousness.

 

[ChristB4Us]

Simple definition, only born anew believers are actually disciples of Christ. Lip service Christians, professing belief, may or may not be actual disciples, but the evidence is against them.

A person might have been "water baptized" [by immersion or other means in Christ's name] and still not be actually in Christ and born anew.

The Holy Spirit is received by being sealed in Christ, thus God must transfer a believer into Christ first, based on God crediting their faith as righteousness.

Does the scriptures below testifies that even though Jesus will deny the former believer denying Him in verse 12, He still abides in those former believers in spite of being denied by Him as left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event in verse 13?

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Paul even goes so far as to cite some of those former believers and yet nevertheless that foundation is sure as that seal of adoption is too for why even former believers and not just professing believers living in sin, or engaging in religious works that deny Him or engaging in a supernatural phenomenon that denies Him, they are to trust Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd & Friend to deliver them from every wicked works in being ready for the Bridegroom for when he comes..

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

So those not ready and denied by Him shall be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House, the vessels of wood and earth, that shall serve the King of kings on earth during that 1000 year reign of Christ.

If you doubt that, consider how Paul said that if he did not bring his body under subjection ( with His help ) he can become a castaway.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

So you can be a sincere disciple and yet still can fall away and not be ready for when He comes. That is why He is warning saved believers to be ready or else and why we are to look to Jesus Christ daily to help us lay aside every weight ( provision for the flesh & that includes heresy ) as well as the sins to walk in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son in thought, word, and deed so we can be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House.

If any one believes discipleship is for obtaining salvation, then by that work, they are denying Him when they are saved for simply believing in Him.

We run that race as saved believers and we treat those who have gone astray as saved believers for why we are to call them to depart from iniquity with His help, or else be left behind for when the Bridegroom comes.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

So there is no judging anyone as not a true Christian or not a true disciple, but to love one another in correcting one another in Christ's love, hoping they will heed the call to go to Jesus Christ in prayer in trusting Him as their personal Good shepherd & friend in getting them ready to leave for the Bridegroom will be coming soon for the abiding bride of Christ..

 

[Van]

[QUOTE="ChristB4Us, post: 2896631, member: 22278]
SNIP
[/quote]
2 Timothy 2:11-13 NASB
The statement is trustworthy:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we will deny Him, He will also deny us;
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Your first question addressed God's response to "former believers." But you did not say whether the believer's faith had or had not been credited as righteousness by God.

So to expand the passage:
1) If we died with Him, refers to being baptized spiritually into Christ, and thus into His death. If we are one of these, we died with Him.
2) And of course, all those transferred spiritually into Christ are made alive together with Him, thus we will live with Him.
3) If we endure (and everyone transferred into Christ endures) we will reign with Him in His kingdoms.
4) If we deny Him refers to those who rejected Christ, or failed to fully embrace Him as Savior and Lord. Titus 1:16 indicates we deny Him by disobedient deeds, thus denying His Lordship.
5) If we are faithless, refers to those whose faith has not been credited as righteousness. But Christ will keep His word, thus He will say He never knew you (deny you) and consign you with the goats.

 

[ChristB4Us]

[QUOTE="ChristB4Us, post: 2896631, member: 22278]
SNIP

Is this the Westboro Baptist Forum? The snipping is annoyingly offensive. If you had wanted to avoid exceeding the word limit to post, then leave out the snip also and just quote what is relevant for what you wish to comment on.

Usually snipping involves overlooking scripture that would otherwise reproves the snipper, and so they address the scripture that is comfortable for them to address that aligns with their theology.

Such snipping is evidence that you do not have an answer for the scriptures that reproves you.

Leaving your bible version out of quote for easier reading.

2 Timothy 2:11-13 NASB
The statement is trustworthy:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we will deny Him, He will also deny us;
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

THEN you posted "Your first question addressed God's response to "former believers." But you did not say whether the believer's faith had or had not been credited as righteousness by God.

My Answer; Since 1 Timothy 4:1 had prophesied that some shall depart from faith, and give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, then they had faith to begin with and thus credited as righteousness of God before they were led astray.

Also Paul addressed those that were falling away from the faith in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-15 as it was happening in his day, and he went on to issue the Lord's commandment to withdraw from them in 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 with the Lord's touching us, and yet not to treat them as the enemy, but admonish them as brothers still in 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 as they are still His.

THEN you posted " So to expand the passage:
1) If we died with Him, refers to being baptized spiritually into Christ, and thus into His death. If we are one of these, we died with Him.
2) And of course, all those transferred spiritually into Christ are made alive together with Him, thus we will live with Him.
3) If we endure (and everyone transferred into Christ endures) we will reign with Him in His kingdoms.
4) If we deny Him refers to those who rejected Christ, or failed to fully embrace Him as Savior and Lord. Titus 1:16 indicates we deny Him by disobedient deeds, thus denying His Lordship.
5) If we are faithless, refers to those whose faith has not been credited as righteousness. But Christ will keep His word, thus He will say He never knew you (deny you) and consign you with the goats." end of quote

The only reason He will say I never knew you is because of saved believers being workers of iniquity as any work of iniquity that denies Him, He will deny them Matthew 7:21-23 and so one does not need to verbally deny Him as He would those that are former believers since He can deny the professing believers for works of iniquity that deny Him.

In His warning to the church at Thyatira in revelation 2:18-25, the Lord acknowledges them as His and knows their works but has a list of offenses to be held against them for why repentance with His help is necessary to avoid the consequence of being cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation as He will judge His house first and those left behind will be judged with death.

Also Paul cited one example for how saved believers departed from faith by saying the resurrection was past already in 2 Timothy 2:18 which exposed Matthew 27:52-53 as that erroneous lie that was inserted in scriptures among the true event testified in Matthew 27:45-54. Yet Paul cited "nevertheless.. as that foundation is sure as that seal is also.. in 2 Timothy 2:19.

Noticed how snipping that 2 Timothy 2:20-22 serves you to avoid? Since those who depart from iniquity will be as vessels unto honor in His House, then those that do not depart from iniquity shall be "damned" as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood and earth, BUT STILL IN HIS HOUSE as they will be resurrected after the great tribulation.

Matthew 27:52-53 is a lie as evidence of Peter's testimony that there were those wresting the scriptures and even Paul's epistles to their own destruction. The centurion did not see the event of verses 52-53 and it is out of order since Matthew did go on to talk about what had happened on the day of His resurrection and so Peter's testimony below should expose it as a lie.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Anyway, it shows how those believers had their faith overthrown thinking that the resurrection of the Old Testament saints had happened already which it did not, but Jesus Christ is still in them for why when they are denied by Him, He will still abide in them as that foundation cannot be removed and neither can their seal of adoption, even though they are left behind as they will die, be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Now if you want to continue with that false theology that only those with faith who have been credited as righteousness by God are true Baptist which is akin to casting doubts on any believer's salvation, then explain 2 Timothy 2:20.for how there can be vessels unto dishonor in His house that obviously did not depart from iniquity before the Bridegroom had come since we KNOW that He is not receiving any workers of iniquity to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in Heaven at the rapture event..

 

[Van]

SNIP

2 Timothy 2:11-13 NASB
The statement is trustworthy:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we will deny Him, He will also deny us;
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

THEN you posted "Your first question addressed God's response to "former believers." But you did not say whether the believer's faith had or had not been credited as righteousness by God.

My Answer; Since 1 Timothy 4:1 had prophesied that some shall depart from faith, and give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, then they had faith to begin with and thus credited as righteousness of God before they were led astray. SNIP

1 Timothyi 4:1
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

Here the implied claim is that falling away from the faith means some will fall away after being born anew. This is a false and mistaken interpretation. There that fall away are hypocrites, thus those who profess faith with their lips, but are faithless in their hearts.

 

[ChristB4Us]

1 Timothyi 4:1
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

Here the implied claim is that falling away from the faith means some will fall away after being born anew. This is a false and mistaken interpretation. There that fall away are hypocrites, thus those who profess faith with their lips, but are faithless in their hearts.

Still waiting for your "correct" interpretation of 1 Timothy 4:1.

While you are at it, what about this warning from Peter?

2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

So maybe you should go before that throne of grace and ask Jesus for help and His wisdom in seeing what you are overlooking in scriptures sine your theology is preventing you from reading scripture as it is written.

 

[Van]

Still waiting for your "correct" interpretation of 1 Timothy 4:1.

While you are at it, what about this warning from Peter?

2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

So maybe you should go before that throne of grace and ask Jesus for help and His wisdom in seeing what you are overlooking in scriptures sine your theology is preventing you from reading scripture as it is written.

1) I provided my interpretation of 1 Timothy 4:1. See post 6.

2) If all you can do is post non-stop non-germane verbiage, what is your purpose?

3) It is ok to believe you can lose your salvation. All I am saying is that is not what scripture teaches. I am in the once saved, always saved camp.

4) Yes it is true, born anew believers can lose an aspect of salvation, the potential rewards for effective ministry. But that does not challenge the essential truth, once a person is transferred by God alone, into Christ's body spiritually and sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit, no one can remove Him and He has promised not to cast anyone out.

 

[ChristB4Us]

1) I provided my interpretation of 1 Timothy 4:1. See post 6.

Leaving your reply out of quote

You posted 1 Timothyi 4:1
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

Here the implied claim is that falling away from the faith means some will fall away after being born anew. This is a false and mistaken interpretation. There that fall away are hypocrites, thus those who profess faith with their lips, but are faithless in their hearts. ~~ end of quote

The underlined in italics is not the message being read plainly in the scriptures.

2) If all you can do is post non-stop non-germane verbiage, what is your purpose?

If that is all you see, then I reckon there is no iron sharpening iron being done here by the Lord Jesus Christ, but I can still hope in Him that He will get through to you, if not later on.

3) It is ok to believe you can lose your salvation.

I do not believe one can lose our salvation but saved believer can miss out on the Marriage Supper for being workers of iniquity, however apparently you believe those professing believers left behind were never saved. Those in that camp that believe you can lose their salvation, can use your contentions towards that end.

All I am saying is that is not what scripture teaches. I am in the once saved, always saved camp.

And yet you seem to condemn those that get left behind as those professing believers that went astray, were never saved.

Again, those in that camp that believe you can lose your salvation will use your contentions to support their erroneous claim.

4) Yes it is true, born anew believers can lose an aspect of salvation, the potential rewards for effective ministry. But that does not challenge the essential truth, once a person is transferred by God alone, into Christ's body spiritually and sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit, no one can remove Him and He has promised not to cast anyone out.

You can lose more than just the rewards of crowns as Paul said he, himself, can become a castaway.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

So how do you explain away that last verse of the consequence of being a castaway then? That is why I say those who do not depart from iniquity are still in His House but damned as vessels unto dishonor in His House, to be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels of wood and earth, to serve the King of kings on earth but still in that House.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So if a saved believer does not depart from iniquity, he will be denied by Him and left behind, even though he is still saved. He missed out in being partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection in being that vessel unto honor in His House, but still in His House for why he will be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor, the vessels of wood and earth..

 

[Van]

Leaving your reply out of quote

You posted 1 Timothyi 4:1
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

Here the implied claim is that falling away from the faith means some will fall away after being born anew. This is a false and mistaken interpretation. There that fall away are hypocrites, thus those who profess faith with their lips, but are faithless in their hearts. ~~ end of quote

The underlined in italics is not the message being read plainly in the scriptures.
SNIP
..

They that fall away are hypocrites. Why did I say that? You post as if you do not know. Good Grief.

Did those that fall away pay attention to deceitful spirits?
Did those that fall away pay attention to teachings of demons?
Did those that fall away pay attention to the hypocrisy of liars?
Did those that fall away pay attention to the myths fit only for the godless and gullible?

BTW "faithless" equals "godless"

Questions for you to consider, Do born anew believers have a clear conscience or a seared conscience, made non-functional by the practice of sin? I read in the passage that "They that fall away are hypocrites, thus those who profess faith with their lips, but are faithless in their hearts."

 

[ChristB4Us]

They that fall away are hypocrites. Why did I say that? You post as if you do not know. Good Grief.

Did those that fall away pay attention to deceitful spirits?
Did those that fall away pay attention to teachings of demons?
Did those that fall away pay attention to the hypocrisy of liars?
Did those that fall away pay attention to the myths fit only for the godless and gullible?

BTW "faithless" equals "godless"

Questions for you to consider, Do born anew believers have a clear conscience or a seared conscience, made non-functional by the practice of sin? I read in the passage that "They that fall away are hypocrites, thus those who profess faith with their lips, but are faithless in their hearts."

Let's cover the basis for how it is hypocrisy that saved believers have engaged in.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So the world receives spirits by seeing it happen but we will know the Holy Spirit by Him dwelling within us, right?

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

So when believers are told they can receive the Holy Spirit again, after a sign, when the Holy Spirit is already in them since salvation at the calling of the gospel when they had first believed, that is hypocrisy, right, as that is the departure from the faith in Jesus Christ?

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

So those that promote that baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues as well as slain in the spirit, being drunk in the spirit, Pensacola Outpouring, Toronto's Blessings, holy laughter movement, the late Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade where he would announce the Holy Spirit falling on already saved believers to receive a healing or a casting our of devils,.. that would be the epitome of hypocrisy, right?

Or what exactly is your judgment on those professing believers?

Because Jesus still acknowledges the church at Thyatira as His and recognized their works but still had offenses held against them that if they did not repent, they would be cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

 

[Van]

Let's cover the basis for how it is hypocrisy that saved believers have engaged in.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So the world receives spirits by seeing it happen but we will know the Holy Spirit by Him dwelling within us, right?
SNIP

Wrong!

1) Fallen humanity cannot be indwelt!

2) Here "see" refers to engaging with Him, as in seeing your doctor.

3) Only those who have been indwelt know the Spirit of Truth.

4) Born anew believers "know" Him (our Helper) because:

a) He currently abides within you, and

b) He will remain within you forever.​

Here is the spiritual sequence as given in scripture:

1) God puts an individual into Christ's spiritual body.

2) The fallen, spiritually dead, separated from God, individual is made alive together with Christ by the washing of regeneration.

3) Now, having been made spiritually holy, we can be indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

This is not rocket science.

 

[ChristB4Us]

Wrong!

1) Fallen humanity cannot be indwelt!

If you reread my post, I was talking about how the world receives spirits by seeing it happening per John 14:17 for how we will know the Holy Spirit by Him dwelling within us for all those that come to & believe in Jesus Christ.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

I was not talking about the Holy Spirit when I cited "spirits".

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Proverbs 25:26 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring. 27 It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory. 28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

2 Corinthians 11;2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

This also reproves those who misapply Ephesians 5:18 as if we are to seek a continual filling of the Spirit when Paul is just exhorting us to stay sober as in not get drunk with wine but remain filled with the Spirit.

Here is the consequence for not keeping our eyes on the Son, aka the Bridegroom but on the spirit "instead" hence suffering the spirit of the antichrist to break through.

 

[ChristB4Us]

In another Christian forum, I should point out how errant modern bible versions can mislead believers into applying Acts 19:1-7 as if believers should be promoted to seek that baptism of the Holy Ghost by that sign of tongues by seeing the error in Acts 18:24-28 when comparing the KJV with the NASB1995, ASV, ESV, & NIV.

Acts 18:24- KJV;NASB1995;ASV;ESV;NIV - And a certain Jew named Apollos, born - Bible Gateway

I suspect tongues for private users wrested the scriptures and since more than one Bible version did switched out "the Lord" with Jesus when Apollos was not talking about Jesus since he was a Jew and knowing only the baptism of john the Baptist's. If he was actually talking about Jesus, Luke would identify him as a Christian or a disciple of Jesus Christ rather than still a Jew and why he was still a disciple of John the Baptist's.

It was after Aquila and Priscilla had talked to Apollos was why Apollos was talking about Jesus Christ afterwards and so it is wrong to switched out the Lord with Jesus in Acts 18:25 when Apollos was talking about the coming of the Lord like John the Baptist was before Jesus came to John the Baptist to reveal Himself as that Lord that John was prophesying about and so it was with Apollos until Auila & Priscilla show the way of God more perfectly for why Apollos was peaching about Jesus Christ as that Lord he was talking about afterwards.

So I can understand now why Pentecostals & Charismatics use Acts 19:1-7 as if they were believers in Jesus Christ when they never were as Acts 18:24-28 in errant modern Bibles mislead readers to believe that disciples of John the Baptist's were believers in Jesus Christ, but if they were, then they would have been water baptized in Jesus's name but they were not and certainly Luke would not identify Apollos as a Jew still if he was a believer in Jesus Christ and so he was not talking about Jesus before but of the Lord by reference in scripture.

Aquila & Priscilla helped him to see that the Lord he was talking about was the Lord Jesus Christ. That was the difference in the testimony that can clearly be seen in the KJV bit not in any of those bible versions that had switched out "the Lord" with Jesus.

Kind of makes one wonder why Luke bothered to write about Apollos if he was talking about Jesus beforehand and then again afterwards when Aquila & Priscilla had showed him the way of the Lord more perfectly. What was the difference other than revealing that the Lord the Jew Apollos was talking about was indeed the Lord Jesus Christ for why he was preaching Him afterwards.

But at the moment, they are unable to see that discrepancy and so it is on the Lord to help them see that.

John the Baptist was not prophesying Jesus Christ by name in the wilderness. And even after water baptizing Him when God the Father spoke from Heaven with the Holy Spirit alighting on Him per Matthew 3:15-17, John sent his own disciples to confirm if He was the One or not.

John 7:18 And the disciples of John shewed him of all these things. 19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? 20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? 21 And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight.

22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

So there is ample evidence that not all of John the Baptist's were aware that Jesus is the Christ for why Paul had to tell them about Jesus as the One John the Baptist was preaching about in the wilderness in Acts 19:1-7 and for Aquila & Priscilla to tell Apollos that the "Lord" he was preaching about was indeed the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[37818]

I suspect tongues for private users wrested the scriptures and since more than one Bible version did switched out "the Lord" with Jesus when Apollos was not talking about Jesus since he was a Jew and knowing only the baptism of john the Baptist's. If he was actually talking about Jesus, Luke would identify him as a Christian or a disciple of Jesus Christ rather than still a Jew and why he was still a disciple of John the Baptist's

This text variant, "the Lord" versus "the Jesus," is not what I, on my own, would likely think. Acts 18:25.

 

[ChristB4Us]

This text variant, "the Lord" versus "the Jesus," is not what I, on my own, would likely think. Acts 18:25.

Seeing how the Greek would have it as the Lord rather than stating the name of Jesus, one has to wonder for what liberty the modern Bibles did this for other than leading into Acts 19:1-7 to imply or insinuate that saved believers may not have the Holy Ghost as Pentecostals and Charismatics have been promoting that baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues.

They may reason that Apollos was talking "about" Jesus being that Lord before Aquila & Priscilla told him Whom that Lord was being Jesus Christ for why it was written that Apollos was talking about Jesus Christ then afterwards, but it is misleading from the original scripture to switch out the Lord with Jesus before Auila & Priscilla had talked with Apollos, whom was a Jew before they had talked with him.

I know you were chasten for bringing up a question in scripture regarding the third hour and the sixth hour for when Jesus was crucified,

Mark 15:24 And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take. 25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified him. 26 And the superscription of his accusation was written over, The King Of The Jews.

John 19:13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha. 14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! 15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

Obviously a mistake was made by the copyist or a copyist deliberately changed the hour so as to sow doubts in His words. This is why Jesus warned us in John 14:23024 & john 15:20 for why we have the Holy Spirit in us to prove all things as there can be no lie of the truth.

If we look at the other 3 gospels regarding the hour that the 3 hours of darkness began..

Matthew 27:45Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.

Mark 15:33And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.

Luke 23:44And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.

Then the hour of the event in John 19:14 is dubious due to this rule in scripture for a true testimony.

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

So either the copyist written it wrong accidentally for however that could happen, or this was intentionally done by those that did not love Him to keep His words so as to sow doubts in His words.

Pau had a problem with that false teaching that the Old Testament saints were resurrected in 2 Timothy 2:18 that was overthrowing the faith of some young believers that did not know any better but since Peter testified to those that wrest the scriptures even in their days.....

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Then we need discernment & wisdom from the Lord to know where they changed the scriptures at as this false teaching that Paul was having trouble with in 2 Timothy 2:18 can be traced to this lie of verses 52-53 inserted in scripture in Matthew 27:45-54 where it does not belong in that account of what the centurion was witnessing as still seeing Jesus on the cross, must be brought to bear and not ignore.

Since Peter testified that they had wrested Paul's words as well as the rest of scripture, goes to show why believers are having a hard time hearing the word of God with all of those Bible versions changing the meaning and thus the truth in His words for why they cannot hear His words to discern that tongues are not for private use and never were when Paul also was trying to exhort believers to study the scriptures rather than seek to be self edified by tongues for private use in 2 Timothy 2:15-16 and thus exposing the lie of 1 Corinthians 14:4 as tongues cannot self edify when Paul is giving instructions in that same chapter that when anyone speaks in tongues as manifested by the Holy Ghost, they should be praying for that interpretation because until it is interpreted by another member in the body of Christ, that tongue is unfruitful to the tongue speaker until he understands it when interpreted per 1 Corinthians 14:12-15. John 16:13 in all Bible versions also testify that the Holy Spirit cannot speak nor utter anything from Himself but speaks what He hears in serving as the Spirit of the Father when Jesus was on earth per Matthew 10:19-20 and now serving as the Spirit of Christ after His ascension per John 14:25-26 and so that proves 1 Corinthians 14:2 & 28 is a lie when no one speaking in tongues as manifested by the Holy spirit is the Holy Spirit speaking TO God and 1 Corinthians 14:20-21 has Paul confirming that by giving the bottom line about what God's gift of tongues are for, for God to speak unto the people through the Holy Spirit in His disciples. But because of the lies in 1 Corinthians 14:2,4, & 28, believers cannot see Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 12:4-7 that the manifestations of the gifts of the Spirit is to profit the body of Christ withal and can never be for private use in 1 Corinthians 12:19-21 or otherwise they wind up saying verse 21 that tongues for private users have no need of any other member of the body of Christ as if no interpretation is required, thus exposing the lies inserted in 1 Corinthians 14:2,4, & 28 from those that had wrest the words of Paul.

Since no lie can be of the truth is why the lost books of the Bible were not accepted as scripture and when anti-KJV people say that not all Bibles say the same thing and try to prompt believers to learn the Greek & Hebrew, to discern the real message in His words, they forget that is not what believers were exhorted to do but to have faith in Jesus Christ to give them wisdom per James 1:5-8 to discern the lies inserted into His words of those that did not love Him to keep his words.

This does not mean we should throw out all Books of the Bible that has evidence of rested words, but to discern the truth in His words with His help when He knows we love Him to love His words to want to know His words from that which are not since no lie can be of the truth.

 

[37818]

@ChristB4Us,
The hours between Matthew, Mark, Luke versus John is not textual issue unless one denies inerrancy.

 

[Van]

1) Fallen humanity cannot be indwelt!
True
2) Here "see" refers to engaging with Him, as in seeing your doctor.
True
3) Only those who have been indwelt know the Spirit of Truth.
True
4) Born anew believers "know" Him (our Helper) because:

a) He currently abides within you, and
True
b) He will remain within you forever.​

True
Here is the spiritual sequence as given in scripture:

1) God puts an individual into Christ's spiritual body.
True
2) The fallen, spiritually dead, separated from God, individual is made alive together with Christ by the washing of regeneration.
True
3) Now, having been made spiritually holy, we can be indwelt with the Holy Spirit.
True

 

[ChristB4Us]

@ChristB4Us,
The hours between Matthew, Mark, Luke versus John is not textual issue unless one denies inerrancy.

What do you mean by inerrancy?

Did the original verse of 1 John 5:7 about the 3 Witnesses in Heaven was removed from scriptures or not? Many contend that Erasmus included it and that the manuscript that was handed to him was not dried yet but there are extra biblical sources citing 1 John 5:7 as originally scripture.

Chick.com: Is 1 John 5:7 not in any Greek manuscript before the 1600s? If it is true, why is it in the KJV?

I believe we have the words of the Lord but due to Peter's testimony in 2 Peter 3:15-17 that there are those that have wrest the scriptures including the epistles of Paul, and Jesus did warn us that there will be those that did not love Him to keep His words John 14:23-24 and the words of His disciples, John 15:20, then wisdom is needed from the Lord to spot verses that do not align with the truths as found in the rest of scriptures for there can be no lie of the truth.

That is why the lost books of the Bible were not considered as scripture for they had words running against the accepted scripture and so discernment from the Lord is needed when certain verses are not lining up with the rest of scriptures in truth.

 

[37818]

What do you mean by inerrancy?

Did the original verse of 1 John 5:7 about the 3 Witnesses in Heaven was removed from scriptures or not? Many contend that Erasmus included it and that the manuscript that was handed to him was not dried yet but there are extra biblical sources citing 1 John 5:7 as originally scripture.

Chick.com: Is 1 John 5:7 not in any Greek manuscript before the 1600s? If it is true, why is it in the KJV?

I believe we have the words of the Lord but due to Peter's testimony in 2 Peter 3:15-17 that there are those that have wrest the scriptures including the epistles of Paul, and Jesus did warn us that there will be those that did not love Him to keep His words John 14:23-24 and the words of His disciples, John 15:20, then wisdom is needed from the Lord to spot verses that do not align with the truths as found in the rest of scriptures for there can be no lie of the truth.

That is why the lost books of the Bible were not considered as scripture for they had words running against the accepted scripture and so discernment from the Lord is needed when certain verses are not lining up with the rest of scriptures in truth.

The disagreement on 1 John 5:7 is not a dispute against inerrancy. But over whether the words ". . . in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth . . ." are the God breathed words given.