Pauline Doctrine not Calvanism nor Arminianism

[Iconoclast]

Not according to Paul! Romans10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Seems Paul says all have heard, doesn't he?

No....that is not what he has said....
Again...how did people in Peru hear the gospel that week that Jesus hung on the cross???

 

[revmwc]

No....that is not what he has said....
Again...how did people in Peru hear the gospel that week that Jesus hung on the cross???

The Gospel has gone out since the beginning of time. Adam passed it to his sons and Cain rejected God's way and wanted God to accept his works. Abel obeyed God and because he believed a savior was coming hew as the first to enter into eternal rest with eternal life.
The people of Peru just as all the native Americans and peoples groups had people within their tribes who believed in the Savior who was coming. The promised seed, they believed God and that faith just as the faith of Abraham was counted for Righteousness. God's Gospel has gone out even through the scattering of Nimrod's time. Those who were scattered had a remnant of believer's in every peoples group.
Genesis 11:
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

Do you believe there was only one group of these scattered who believed the savior was coming? Isaiah 1:9 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

How were the Old Testament Believers saved? Just like we are they believed in a Savior only they believed in one who was coming, we believe in a Savior who has come. Do you believe that because they haven't heard Jesus is the Savior that they aren't saved? If they believe as old Testament Saints in a savior who is coming aren't they saved? Let's see what we can find, Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.

These 12 had not heard of Jesus but had believed the preaching of John the Baptist, when they heard of Jesus they followed in scriptural water baptism. They were already saved, already headed for heaven, they hadn't heard about Jesus but they believed a savior was coming as did everyone in the old Testament.

God scattered them at Babel and yet Paul states in Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. There is a Remnant in this world today, Paul in Romans 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. Mounce shows this for the word world here:
οἰκουμένη (oikoumenē)
Strong: G3625

GK: G3876

some list as a participle, the habitable earth, world, Matt. 24:14; Rom. 10:18; Heb. 1:6; used, however, with various restrictions of meaning, according to the context, Lk. 2:1; Acts 17:6; meton. the inhabitants of the earth, the whole human race, mankind, Acts 17:31; 19:27; Rev. 3:10. Some view this word as a participial form of οἰκέω.

The words of God's messengers have gone out to the entire world, so there are none who haven't heard the gospel and had a an opportunity to be saved.

 

[Reformed]

Not according to Paul! Romans10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Seems Paul says all have heard, doesn't he?

No. Paul is saying that Israel has no excuse, for it has the truth of God in the Old Testament. Look at the context. It is not speaking of individuals. Look at the conjunction "but" in verses 18, 19, and 21. It joins every part of this passage together.

 

[utilyan]

Yep, right out of the Calvinist's Dictionary....

To Foreknow: To decree or to love, absolutely nothing to do with knowing before.

I bet that's why there was no such thing as Greek Calvinist. They already knew what scripture was saying.

 

[thatbrian]

I don't see where God divides men into "elect" and "non-elect" groups.

This statement is difficult for me to understand. When something is found on every page of scripture how does someone not see it?

 

[Aaron]

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Paul states something very interesting here, Those whom He-God did foreknow, this is a place of contention for many. Foreknowledge what does it mean?
Those He did proginōskō that is, (Strong's) to know beforehand, to be previously acquainted with and Vine's states, "the foreknowledge" of God is the basis of His foreordaining counsels.
Albert Barnes a Presbyterian states this:
For whom he did foreknow - The word used here προέγνω proegnō has been the subject of almost endless disputes in regard to its meaning in this place. The literal meaning of the word cannot be a matter of dispute. It denotes properly to "know beforehand;" to be acquainted with future events. But whether it means here simply to know that certain persons would become Christians; or to ordain, and constitute them to be Christians, and to be saved, has been a subject of almost endless discussion. Without entering at large into an investigation of the word, perhaps the following remarks may throw light on it.

(1) it does not here have reference to all the human family; for all are not, and have not, been conformed to the image of his Son. It has reference therefore only to those who would become Christians, and be saved.

(2) it implies "certain knowledge." It was certainly foreseen, in some way, that they would believe, and be saved. There is nothing, therefore, in regard to them that is contingent, or subject to doubt in the divine Mind, since it was certainly foreknown.

(3) the event which was thus foreknown must have been, for some cause, certain and fixed; since an uncertain event could not be possibly foreknown. To talk of a foreknowing a contingent event, that is, of foreknowing an event as certain which may or may not exist, is an absurdity.

(4) in what way such an event became certain is not determined by the use of this word. But it must have been somehow in connection with a divine appointment or arrangement, since in no other way can it be conceived to be certain. While the word used here, therefore, does not of necessity mean to decree, yet its use supposes that there was a purpose or plan; and the phrase is an explanation of what the apostle had just said, that it was "according to the purpose of God" that they were called. This passage does not affirm why, or how, or, "on what grounds" God foreknew that some of the human family would be saved. It simply affirms the fact; and the mode in which those who will believe were designated, must be determined from other sources. This passage simply teaches that he knew them; that his eye was fixed on them; that he regarded them as to be conformed to his Son; and that, thus knowing them, he designated them to eternal life. The Syriac renders it in accordance with this interpretation: "And from the beginning he knew them, and sealed them with the image of his Son," etc. As, however, none would believe but by the influences of his Spirit, it follows that they were not foreknown on account of any faith which they would themselves exercise, or any goodworks which they would themselves perform, but according to the purpose or plan of God himself.

Romans 10:
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
What does Paul say here? Those who confess with their mouths and believe in their Heart that God raised Christ from the dead shall be saved. Those who call upon the Lord Shall be saved. So who will be saved, is it only those who God chose to be saved? Or is those who live a righteous life too?

Paul says those who confess, believe and call upon the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. He also states here that with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and confession comes through the mouth. With the heart unregenerate men believe, because believing makes on in right relationship with God!

We see then verses:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Paul ask and answers several questions here, first how shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed. This is similar to the Calvanist question how can they call if they haven't been regenerated? How shall they believe in whom they have not heard? The so called unreached peoples o the world question we see here as well as all who are not believers. How shall they hear without a preacher?

Then we see:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

How shall they preach except they be sent? The preacher, evangelist and missionary must be called and answer that call to go and preach. But notice something Paul says in verse 16 "they have not all obeyed the Gospel" who hasn't obeyed the Gospel? Paul uses Isaiah as an example, who has believed our report, in other words who has obeyed the gospel call to salvation? Faith comes by hearing the gospel, not before thus regeneration comes by hearing and hearing comes by the word of God. Paul says have not they all heard, the world has all heard the sound of the gospel for it has gone out into all the earth! All the words have gone unto the ends of the earth. All have heard, gospel.

Paul states God knew beforehand those whom He Predestined, therefore what did Paul say? Those who God Predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ became that way by an Omniscient God who knew them Beforehand. Like Jacob and Esau were foreknown by God and one he Loved, the other it is said he hated. God knew them before they were born and He knew them before they were conceived, He based their being conformed to the image of His on that knowledge. We are saved by Grace, given the free choice to choose for or to reject Christ, while God already knows us and what choice we will make. He still let's all hear as Paul says to the ends of the World!

Boiled down, you're saying God sees greater good in some than in others, and they, therefore, merit His call.

Hogwash.

Rom 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;

In other words, there was nothing in Jacob that put him ahead of Esau, nothing lacking in Esau that caused him to lag behind Jacob. They were both equally corrupt. God chose based on His own purpose.

 

[Iconoclast]

Rev mac,

No one around the world knew of Jesus or the cross
There is no indication of this.
Isa1:9 is speaking of a remnant from one chosen nation.....Israel.

 

[revmwc]

Boiled down, you're saying God sees greater good in some than in others, and they, therefore, merit His call.

Hogwash.

Rom 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;

In other words, there was nothing in Jacob that put him ahead of Esau, nothing lacking in Esau that caused him to lag behind Jacob. They were both equally corrupt. God chose based on His own purpose.

No man is totally and utterly depraved and in him is nothing good, there is none Righteous no not one. We are made Righteous when we accept Christ as savior. not one person deserves to be saved. not one should be chosen over another, and yet GOD foreknew all of us and knew exactly what each and everyone would do. He knew Adam would fall. He knew the choices Jacon and Esau would make. Was God surprised when Esau sold his Birthright? Was he surprised when Jacob stole the blessing? Of course not He knew exactly what would happen before they were born in fact He knew this before they were conceived. God saw the positive choice Jacob would make to accept the savior who was coming and that Esau would reject it. in fact God knew that Adam would fall before He ever created him. How do we know God knew the choice Adam would make? 1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

God knew Adam would fall before the world was created.Sounds like He "knew beforehand" exactly what Adam would do. Or was that God didn't know hat Adam would do but planned just in case He fell? Since He is Omniscient He knows all right down to the number of hair on our head.

 

[revmwc]

Rev mac,

No one around the world knew of Jesus or the cross
There is no indication of this.
Isa1:9 is speaking of a remnant from one chosen nation.....Israel.

But they like the Old Testament believers, believed HE was coming. That belief in Abraham was counted for righteousness, Native American Indians prayer, "Great Spirit of our souls, burning in our heart's yearning and in our innermost aspirations, speak to us now and always so that we may be aware of the greatness and goodness of Your gift of life and be worthy of this priceless privilege of living."
The Great Spirit came to their souls they anticipated a Great Spirit to come. Did they also have medicine men who falsely believed in witchcraft yes. But a remnant believed in a Savior coming. Just as all peoples have those same beliefs. Those in Acts whom Paul came upon hadn't heard of Christ but had believed John's testimony of the one coming. Are you saying those twelve weren't saved until they heard of Christ? Believe on the Savior and call upon The Great father to say I believe HE is coming.

 

[Reformed]

But they like the Old Testament believers, believed HE was coming. That belief in Abraham was counted for righteousness, Native American Indians prayer, "Great Spirit of our souls, burning in our heart's yearning and in our innermost aspirations, speak to us now and always so that we may be aware of the greatness and goodness of Your gift of life and be worthy of this priceless privilege of living."
The Great Spirit came to their souls they anticipated a Great Spirit to come. Did they also have medicine men who falsely believed in witchcraft yes. But a remnant believed in a Savior coming. Just as all peoples have those same beliefs. Those in Acts whom Paul came upon hadn't heard of Christ but had believed John's testimony of the one coming. Are you saying those twelve weren't saved until they heard of Christ? Believe on the Savior and call upon The Great father to say I believe HE is coming.

This science fiction is more weird than just plain fiction. Native American religion is pantheism dressed in mythology. What in the world gives you any indication they were awaiting the Messiah of the Bible?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Iconoclast]

You are misusing the term Remnant very badly.
Heathen praying to a totem pole when not praying to Jesus they were praying to a demon Spirit behind the totem pole.
No one in other countries or even in America is still waiting for promise of a seed to come that is your own theological Fantasyland.

 

[Yeshua1]

Then why did we need Calvin 14 centuries later?

Just asking.

HankD

same reason needed a Luther, in order to recapture the true Gospel message for the Church, as that Gospel was nearly buried under the false on of the RCC!

 

[utilyan]

same reason needed a Luther, in order to recapture the true Gospel message for the Church, as that Gospel was nearly buried under the false on of the RCC!

What Yeshua is saying is SYNERGY. God was powerless and "NEEDED" a Luther because the gospel on its own was too weak.

Luther taught FAITH ALONE you didn't have to personally do anything. The hypocrisy is he does too much. He's a catholic priest who concludes his own faith is wrong. Well did he become a catholic priest for NOT believing the catholic faith? why all the deception?

He should have been a Muslim. He would have been a Imam, Muslim priest , oh hey guys our faith is wrong don't think this how Islam works. So let ME tell yo how its suppose to work.


If he had the correct faith all along in a lineage that makes sense. But he's just a nobody who not only agrees but gets ordained.

Someone goes to ENGLAND to learn ENGLISH, Becomes a ENGLISH Teacher even and then tells those in England that is not how English is spoken at all. So to resolve this I am starting a new language Lutharish and God can thank me.

 

[JonShaff]

Boiled down, you're saying God sees greater good in some than in others, and they, therefore, merit His call.

Hogwash.

Rom 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;

In other words, there was nothing in Jacob that put him ahead of Esau, nothing lacking in Esau that caused him to lag behind Jacob. They were both equally corrupt. God chose based on His own purpose.

The Choosing of Jacob vs. Esau is not a "Salvation Issue", it was to bring the Promised Seed--Christ. God chose the exact lineage to bring forth the Promised Seed of Genesis 3:15. Why would you confuse that? God chose a nation to birth the Messiah. God Chose Christ to bring Salvation and the New Creation and the True Kingdom of God. It's simple...

Abel, Not Cain
Isaac, Not Ishmael
Jacob, Not Esau
Ephraim, not Menesah
Grace, not Law
NT, not OT
Christ, not Adam

God Chooses the method and means, the Testament and Nation.

GOD CHOSE CHRIST TO BIRTH HIS FAMILY, NOT ADAM

It has to do with Birth right/Begotten-ness and Christ being Heir of All things--before the foundation of the world.

 

[JonShaff]

This science fiction is more weird than just plain fiction. Native American religion is pantheism dressed in mythology. What in the world gives you any indication they were awaiting the Messiah of the Bible?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Have you spoken with native Americans? Several that i have spoken to believe the realities of Noah and also some sort of quasi-levitical sacrificial system. Not saying that is going to save them, but i've been told their beliefs are similar to OT worship.

 

[The Archangel]

The Choosing of Jacob vs. Esau is not a "Salvation Issue", it was to bring the Promised Seed--Christ. God chose the exact lineage to bring forth the Promised Seed of Genesis 3:15. Why would you confuse that? God chose a nation to birth the Messiah. God Chose Christ to bring Salvation and the New Creation and the True Kingdom of God. It's simple...

Abel, Not Cain
Isaac, Not Ishmael
Jacob, Not Esau
Ephraim, not Menesah
Grace, not Law
NT, not OT
Christ, not Adam

God Chooses the method and means, the Testament and Nation.

GOD CHOSE CHRIST TO BIRTH HIS FAMILY, NOT ADAM

It has to do with Birth right/Begotten-ness and Christ being Heir of All things--before the foundation of the world.

The only problem here, of course, is that Paul makes it a "Salvation issue" by what he writes in Romans 9. He isn't talking merely about nations; he's talking about individuals.

The Archangel

 

[JonShaff]

The only problem here, of course, is that Paul makes it a "Salvation issue" by what he writes in Romans 9. He isn't talking merely about nations; he's talking about individuals.

The Archangel

LOL

ROMANS 9!!!

Unless of course, you realize that he's not talking about Individual SALVATION. God Chose Israel, not Edom...and He used Egypt as a way to Demonstrate His Power and Sovereignty.

Psalm 135
4 For the Lord has chosen Jacob for Himself,
Israel for His special treasure.

5 For I know that the Lord is great,
And our Lord is above all gods.
6 Whatever the Lord pleases He does,
In heaven and in earth,
In the seas and in all deep places.
7 He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth;
He makes lightning for the rain;
He brings the wind out of His treasuries.

8 He destroyed the firstborn of Egypt,
Both of man and beast.
9 He sent signs and wonders into the midst of you, O Egypt,
Upon Pharaoh and all his servants.

 

[The Archangel]

LOL

ROMANS 9!!!

Unless of course, you realize that he's not talking about Individual SALVATION. God Chose Israel, not Edom...and He used Egypt as a way to Demonstrate His Power and Sovereignty.

Psalm 135
4 For the Lord has chosen Jacob for Himself,
Israel for His special treasure.

5 For I know that the Lord is great,
And our Lord is above all gods.
6 Whatever the Lord pleases He does,
In heaven and in earth,
In the seas and in all deep places.
7 He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth;
He makes lightning for the rain;
He brings the wind out of His treasuries.

8 He destroyed the firstborn of Egypt,
Both of man and beast.
9 He sent signs and wonders into the midst of you, O Egypt,
Upon Pharaoh and all his servants.

But, you're not dealing with Romans 9, so it is my turn to "LOL." Demonstrate how Romans 9 says what you are saying it does. Of course, you cannot do so because in the passage Pharaoh himself is addressed--in the singular--and so it makes clear that this is (1) a salvation issue and (2) God may do as He pleases (have mercy on whomever He wills).

The Archangel

 

[JonShaff]

But, you're not dealing with Romans 9, so it is my turn to "LOL." Demonstrate how Romans 9 says what you are saying it does. Of course, you cannot do so because in the passage Pharaoh himself is addressed--in the singular--and so it makes clear that this is (1) a salvation issue and (2) God may do as He pleases (have mercy on whomever He wills).

The Archangel

Because the Entire theme of Romans 9 is "What about Israel?" Romans 1-8 is about individual salvation--"Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved". Romans 9-11 Answers the Question, "Ok what about Israel?"

Paul is addressing the statement, "God, it's not fair how you are treating Israel."--Regardless if you look at that positively or negatively. Read the Last parts of the Chapter--God is bringing judgment on Israel because they sought to be justified by the Works of the Law..Romans 9:30-33

Romans 10:21

Also, It was to address the Question...What do you mean Christ is the means for salvation? Not being part of Israel?

Line by Line through Romans 9

 

[The Archangel]

Because the Entire theme of Romans 9 is "What about Israel?" Romans 1-8 is about individual salvation--"Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved". Romans 9-11 Answers the Question, "Ok what about Israel?"

Paul is addressing the statement, "God, it's not fair how you are treating Israel."--Regardless if you look at that positively or negatively. Read the Last parts of the Chapter--God is bringing judgment on Israel because they sought to be justified by the Works of the Law..Romans 9:30-33

Romans 10:21

Nope.

Paul's use of "Children of God" in v. 8 negates your entire presupposition about the passage.

Blessings,

The Archangel