Pauline Doctrine not Calvanism nor Arminianism

[Pastor_Bob]

The word just means to know beforehand. It is not a secret word.

Can we consider another passage as it applies to the foreknowledge of God?
Matthew 14:34 And when they were gone over, they came into the land of Gennesaret.
35 And when the men of that place had knowledge of him, they sent out into all that country round about, and brought unto him all that were diseased;
36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.

Can we agree that Jesus knew ahead of time (foreknowledge) who would be there that day and who was there in need of healing?

Can we also agree that Jesus knew ahead of time who it was that would choose to touch Him? The phrase in vs. 36 "and as many as touched" clearly indicates that anyone could touch Him and it also implies that some chose not to touch Him.

The question then becomes, was the sovereignty of God limited because the healing of these people was dependent upon them taking the initiative to reach out and touch Jesus?

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Some Synergists think it means God knew those who would choose Him, so He chose them.

Sorry. I meant to quote this on the post above but hit "Post Reply" instead of "Insert Quotes." I'm not the most technologically savoy member here on the BB.

I do not think that the foreknowledge of God means "God knew those who would choose Him, so He chose them." I think it means, God knew I would place my trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and appropriate His atonement to my sinful condition. He didn't choose me based upon me choosing Him. He simply knew all along that I would choose Him. His sovereignty is not at all limited by giving me that choice.

 

[HankD]

Pauline Doctrine not Calvanism nor Arminianism

Hmm, probably because Calvin and Arminius came centuries after Paul.

HankD

 

[The Archangel]

I do not think that the foreknowledge of God means "God knew those who would choose Him, so He chose them." I think it means, God knew I would place my trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and appropriate His atonement to my sinful condition. He didn't choose me based upon me choosing Him. He simply knew all along that I would choose Him. His sovereignty is not at all limited by giving me that choice.

The textbook definition of "foreknowledge" is not the issue here, rather it is the context in which the word is used. The text in Romans 8 clearly says "Those whom He foreknew," not "That which He foreknew." In each case, the meaning of "foreknew" does not affect the meaning as much as the context. Here, again, it is a someone who is foreknown, not a something.

This is a simple case of asking: What does the text say? The Bible says what it says, not what we want it to say.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Reformed]

He didn't choose me based upon me choosing Him. He simply knew all along that I would choose Him. His sovereignty is not at all limited by giving me that choice.

Bob, God did, indeed, know that believers would choose Jesus because the Father ordained it.

Ephesians 1:4a just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world,

No one comes to faith in Christ unless the Father predestines that they do so. No one came come to faith in Christ independent of God's choice via election (c.f. Romans 9:11).

 

[Yeshua1]

Bob, God did, indeed, know that believers would choose Jesus because the Father ordained it.

Ephesians 1:4a just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world,

No one comes to faith in Christ unless the Father predestines that they do so. No one came come to faith in Christ independent of God's choice via election (c.f. Romans 9:11).

The entire salvation process is shown in Romans 8 unto us, as salvation from its very start to finish is of the Lord, as God shares that with none, as he alone will be the one who can justify the ungodly and save lost sinners apart from their own works and efforts!

 

[Yeshua1]

Pauline Doctrine not Calvanism nor Arminianism

Hmm, probably because Calvin and Arminius came centuries after Paul.

HankD

They did, but the basic theology of calvinism as regarding salvation proper is found in the scriptures themselves...

 

[Pastor_Bob]

No one comes to faith in Christ unless the Father predestines that they do so. No one came come to faith in Christ independent of God's choice via election (c.f. Romans 9:11).

You might be interested to know that I actually agree with both of these statements. I simply believe the Bible teaches very clearly that He chooses that every man receive an opportunity to be saved.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

I Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

God would be very cruel indeed if He gave every man a glimpse of the grace that brings salvation while at the same time excluding him from that grace.

 

[Yeshua1]

You might be interested to know that I actually agree with both of these statements. I simply believe the Bible teaches very clearly that He chooses that every man receive an opportunity to be saved.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

I Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

God would be very cruel indeed if He gave every man a glimpse of the grace that brings salvation while at the same time excluding him from that grace.

God makes a real appeal to all sinners to now get saved, but only those whom he has chosen shall respond to that, as rest freely choose to stay in the dark!

 

[HankD]

They did, but the basic theology of calvinism as regarding salvation proper is found in the scriptures themselves...

Then why did we need Calvin 14 centuries later?

Just asking.

HankD

 

[thatbrian]

Consider the following passage that clearly describes the foreknowledge of God and what He sees when He looks at all men:
Psalm 33:13 The LORD looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men.
14 From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth.
15 He fashioneth their hearts alike; he considereth all their works.

I don't see where God divides men into "elect" and "non-elect" groups.

Apples and oranges.

 

[thatbrian]

Then why did we need Calvin 14 centuries later?

Just asking.

HankD

We need another Calvin and another Luther today, because sinful men's hearts (mine) are bent on self-justification.

 

[Reformed]

I simply believe the Bible teaches very clearly that He chooses that every man receive an opportunity to be saved.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Bob,

I do not want to get into an in-depth Greek lesson, but "all men" in Titus 2:11 is almost the exact rendering as Titus 3:4 which reads:

Titus 3:4 4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,

The Greek rendering in Titus 2:11 means all men as in all mankind, not each an every person. This is what it means in Titus 2:11

As far as every man has the opportunity to be saved, how do you come up with that unless you are a Universalist? God is under no obligation to make sure every person on this planet hears the Gospel. Christ is revealed in the Gospel and the Gospel is part of the written word of God.

God would be very cruel indeed if He gave every man a glimpse of the grace that brings salvation while at the same time excluding him from that grace.

Cruel? You are putting a human condition on God. God owes no man anything, not even salvation. You have not made a convincing point that God gives every person on this planet a "glimpse of the grace that brings salvation". Romans 1 reveals through nature that there is a God, but that knowledge is not sufficient for salvation.

Bob, there are people born into this world who never hear the Gospel. They die without hearing the Gospel.

 

[HankD]

We need another Calvin and another Luther today, because sinful men's hearts (mine) are bent on self-justification.

True, you could have mentioned that it was needed along with the Reformation after the RCC had almost destroyed the doctrine of salvation by grace by through faith.

HankD

 

[thatbrian]

True, you could have mentioned that it was needed along with the Reformation after the RCC had almost destroyed the doctrine of salvation by grace by through faith.

HankD

I could have mentioned that I want Donald Trump to get that wall built, too.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

As far as every man has the opportunity to be saved, how do you come up with that unless you are a Universalist?

My understanding of Universalism is that it believes that all men will be saved not that all men can be saved.

You have not made a convincing point that God gives every person on this planet a "glimpse of the grace that brings salvation".

See I Timothy 2:4 above.

Romans 1 reveals through nature that there is a God, but that knowledge is not sufficient for salvation.

Agreed. However, All men are given the light (John 1:9). I sincerely believe that if a man responds to the light he is given, God will give him more light. Although I can't explain it, I believe that God will give those that sincerely seek Him the means to hear the gospel.

Bob, there are people born into this world who never hear the Gospel. They die without hearing the Gospel.

Sad, but true. Shame on us...

 

[thatbrian]

Sad, but true. Shame on us...

No. Shame on God. If your view is correct, God should be on trial, not men.

 

[Iconoclast]

Consider the following passage that clearly describes the foreknowledge of God and what He sees when He looks at all men:
Psalm 33:13 The LORD looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men.
14 From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth.
15 He fashioneth their hearts alike; he considereth all their works.

I don't see where God divides men into "elect" and "non-elect" groups.

This passage indicates that God is aware of everything, every person, every sinful work, every single sin....sinful because men are already fallen and not a blank slate....
Pastor Bob if we want to see if God has made such a determination we have to look at passages that would indicate such truth.

let's get to a couple of those verses....
2tim 1;9
1]Who hath saved us,
Clearly salvation is in view.....it is not speaking of all unsaved men, but those who are saved and in the church...US {sheep, elect, wheat,]

2]and called us with an holy calling,
This is the effectual call spoken of in romans 8:29-30...called the golden chain of redemption..WHOM He Foreknew/ predestined, called...

3]not according to our works,
All of mercy,and grace
4] but according to his own purpose and grace,
His eternal Covenant of Redemption,made known to the Church
Eph3
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

5]which was given us in Christ Jesus
Heb2
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

6]before the world began,

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[revmwc]

Bob,

Bob, there are people born into this world who never hear the Gospel. They die without hearing the Gospel.

Not according to Paul! Romans10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Seems Paul says all have heard, doesn't he?

 

[Iconoclast]

Pastor_Bob,

Agreed. However, All men are given the light (John 1:9). I sincerely believe that if a man responds to the light he is given, God will give him more light.

The bible indicates men do not respond savingly....

Although I can't explain it, I believe that God will give those that sincerely seek Him the means to hear the gospel.

God will send His word to those who need to hear it savingly...Rom10, Isa55