Paul's Gospel?

[J. Jump]

TC you have equated life in the correct manner. This same "life" is what John was talking about. It is eternal life, but your 21st-century definition of eternal is flawed. And that conversation we have had.

Aionios doesn't mean without beginning and without end anymore than it means without end. Aionios is a set amount of time although the length may vary.

This "life" talked about is in relation to Christ's coming kingdom. That coming kingdom is going to last 1,000 years. It is impossible to get without end from something that has a beginning and an end. Christ will start ruling the world one of these days and then His rule will end when He gives the kingdom back to the Father. That is not 21st century eternal or everlasting. That is Scriptural aionios.

Life being discussed is life for the kingdom age. Again please show me in Scripture where the folks in the gospels were spiritually dead. That means they don't have everlasting life. If you can't show me that, and I don't believe you can, then we have to understand that these folks already possessed everlasting life and this "life" that is being discussed is NOT everlasting life.

So again I will await your Scriptural evidence that says folks in the NT were spiritually dead when Jesus encountered them. Without that CRITICAL piece of evidence your ENTIRE theology crumbles.

 

[TCGreek]

TC you have equated life in the correct manner. This same "life" is what John was talking about. It is eternal life, but your 21st-century definition of eternal is flawed. And that conversation we have had.

Aionios doesn't mean without beginning and without end anymore than it means without end. Aionios is a set amount of time although the length may vary.

This "life" talked about is in relation to Christ's coming kingdom. That coming kingdom is going to last 1,000 years. It is impossible to get without end from something that has a beginning and an end. Christ will start ruling the world one of these days and then His rule will end when He gives the kingdom back to the Father. That is not 21st century eternal or everlasting. That is Scriptural aionios.

Life being discussed is life for the kingdom age. Again please show me in Scripture where the folks in the gospels were spiritually dead. That means they don't have everlasting life. If you can't show me that, and I don't believe you can, then we have to understand that these folks already possessed everlasting life and this "life" that is being discussed is NOT everlasting life.

So again I will await your Scriptural evidence that says folks in the NT were spiritually dead when Jesus encountered them. Without that CRITICAL piece of evidence your ENTIRE theology crumbles.

1. Scripture means nothing to you unless it serves your end.

2. Don't forget that all we engage in is Riddle of Semantics.

3. If you want to know what I believe about Salvation, Sanctification and Glorification, know that I am a full-blown five point Calvinist.

4. Get yourself a good Reformed Systematic Theology that guides you through the Scriptures, and you will know what I believe about what you have asked me.

5. Riddle of Semantics is not my forte.

 

[J. Jump]

1. Scripture means nothing to you unless it serves your end.

2. Don't forget that all we engage in is Riddle of Semantics.

3. If you want to know what I believe about Salvation, Sanctification and Glorification, know that I am a full-blown five point Calvinist.

4. Get yourself a good Reformed Systematic Theology that guides you through the Scriptures, and you will know what I believe about what you have asked me.

5. Riddle of Semantics is not my forte.

So do you have Scripture evidence that says these folks were spiritually dead or not?

 

[TCGreek]

So do you have Scripture evidence that says these folks were spiritually dead or not?

What difference would it make? Tell me.

 

[TCGreek]

What difference would it make? Tell me.

Writing to both Jews and Gentiles, Paul says that they were dead in sins (Eph 2:1).

 

[J. Jump]

What difference would it make? Tell me.

As I said it makes ALL the difference. Without it you are left with nothing but an empty bag.

Your whole entire theology revolves around the belief that these people in the gospel accounts were spiritually dead until Jesus saved them. If that is truly the case then there will be Scripture to back that up.

I find nowhere in Scripture that God made a change in what people were supposed to believe prior to Jesus' arrival on the scene. Jesus' ministry was about something more than what they already had.

Again this is the cornerstone of your theology so surely you have Scripture to back it up. Right?

 

[TCGreek]

As I said it makes ALL the difference. Without it you are left with nothing but an empty bag.

Your whole entire theology revolves around the belief that these people in the gospel accounts were spiritually dead until Jesus saved them. If that is truly the case then there will be Scripture to back that up.

I find nowhere in Scripture that God made a change in what people were supposed to believe prior to Jesus' arrival on the scene. Jesus' ministry was about something more than what they already had.

Again this is the cornerstone of your theology so surely you have Scripture to back it up. Right?

1. I show you a Scripture and what do you do?

2. Scripture means nothing at this point.

3. If I bring Scripture it is to fit my theolgoy, but if you bring Scripture, What do you call that?

 

[J. Jump]

1. I show you a Scripture and what do you do?

2. Scripture means nothing at this point.

3. If I bring Scripture it is to fit my theolgoy, but if you bring Scripture, What do you call that?

Do you have the Scripture to back up your theology or not? Let's quit beating around the bush and playing games, let's just see the Scripture and then let's take a look at it.

Where is your Scripture that says these people are spiritually dead until Jesus saved them? And where is your Scripture that says these people were no longer saved by the same faith that their ancestors were prior to the arrival of Jesus?

 

[npetreley]

Where is your Scripture that says these people are spiritually dead until Jesus saved them?

TC, do you ever get the feeling these guys don't even understand the basic gospel?

 

[TCGreek]

TC, do you ever get the feeling these guys don't even understand the basic gospel?

1. Now, I can discuss with you Npetreley.

2. I can show you Ephesians 2:1 that addresses both classes of people in the time of Paul, and you would get it.

3. What is biblical anthropology? Man is born dead in sins and are objects of the wrath of God from birth (Eph 2:1-3).

4. And I know you will understand that, because it is basic to the gospel.

 

[J. Jump]

1. Now, I can discuss with you Npetreley.

2. I can show you Ephesians 2:1 that addresses both classes of people in the time of Paul, and you would get it.

3. What is biblical anthropology? Man is born dead in sins and are objects of the wrath of God from birth (Eph 2:1-3).

4. And I know you will understand that, because it is basic to the gospel.

You're still missing half your argument. Where did God change what these folks were supposed to believe in. Let me give a more specific example.

You will say that Joseph (earthly father) and Mary (Christ's mother) were both spiritually dead until they believed what Christ preached correct?

Now the problem with that is God said that they were saved long before Jesus was ever even a thought based on their faith in the sacrificial system that God had put in place pointing to the Lamb of God.

Same would apply to the disciples.

So the only thing that you are left with is God revolked their salvation until they believed Jesus or these folks really were saved. And I'll ask you like I asked Amy how is it that the disciples. . . THE DISCIPLES didn't even believe Jesus in regard to His death until the end of His ministry? And some probably didn't even believe until it happened.

Peter, A DISCIPLE, even tried to tell Jesus that he wasn't even going to let Him go to the cross and die. Yet this guy was a disciple (saved).

There's nothing that you have given that takes care of that issue in Scripture. So I'll continue to wait for your answer.

 

[TCGreek]

You're still missing half your argument. Where did God change what these folks were supposed to believe in. Let me give a more specific example.

You will say that Joseph (earthly father) and Mary (Christ's mother) were both spiritually dead until they believed what Christ preached correct?

Now the problem with that is God said that they were saved long before Jesus was ever even a thought based on their faith in the sacrificial system that God had put in place pointing to the Lamb of God.

Same would apply to the disciples.

So the only thing that you are left with is God revolked their salvation until they believed Jesus or these folks really were saved. And I'll ask you like I asked Amy how is it that the disciples. . . THE DISCIPLES didn't even believe Jesus in regard to His death until the end of His ministry? And some probably didn't even believe until it happened.

Peter, A DISCIPLE, even tried to tell Jesus that he wasn't even going to let Him go to the cross and die. Yet this guy was a disciple (saved).

There's nothing that you have given that takes care of that issue in Scripture. So I'll continue to wait for your answer.

1. You're alone with your aberrations.

2. You continue to display a lack of understanding of how God saves, whether it be OT or NT.

 

[TCGreek]

So do you have Scripture evidence that says these folks were spiritually dead or not?

1. What did I say, "Show him Scripture and what will he do?"

2. Let me adopt one of your favorite lines: "Exactly, you are proving my point."

 

[npetreley]

1. You're alone with your aberrations.

2. You continue to display a lack of understanding of how God saves, whether it be OT or NT.

I'm with you. When someone is so far off the mark, there's hardly any room for an answer. You'd have to go back and start from the beginning, teaching the most elementary principles of the gospel.

 

[Hope of Glory]

What must I do to be saved?

 

[J. Jump]

1. You're alone with your aberrations.

2. You continue to display a lack of understanding of how God saves, whether it be OT or NT.

Then by all means please set me straight. All you have done and continue to do is say you're wrong.

Please explain to me how people were saved in the OT. Then tell me when Peter and Mary were saved. We'll just use those two as examples.

 

[J. Jump]

You'd have to go back and start from the beginning, teaching the most elementary principles of the gospel.

So you aren't willing to do that? You would rather I burn in the lake of fire for all eternity than to start at the beginning?

 

[npetreley]

So you aren't willing to do that? You would rather I burn in the lake of fire for all eternity than to start at the beginning?

What, you don't have a Bible? I can't open your eyes, but God can.

 

[TCGreek]

Then by all means please set me straight. All you have done and continue to do is say you're wrong.

Please explain to me how people were saved in the OT. Then tell me when Peter and Mary were saved. We'll just use those two as examples.

1. It is not my place to set you straight. God will do that.

2. Again, I will tell you ME guys, I'am a five point Calvinist. You know what we believe.

3. Can't you understand what I am saying, "Scripture means nothing at this point."

4. God will have to change you.

 

[J. Jump]

Yeah I have several of them, but obviously you don't think that has done any good. So you have no responsibilility to someone that is asking you for the hope that is within other than to say read your Bible? WOW.