PB View of Romans 3:21-26

[12strings]

What do Primitive Baptists do with Romans 3:25?

Rom. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

It seems the entire passage is referring not to the temporal benefits of Gospel repentance, but to the ETERNAL salvation purchased by Christ's propitiatory sacrifice on the cross, and the Justification and imputed righteousness that comes with it...but it says in v. 25 that this is "to be received by faith."

I realize PB's and some Calvinists will argue that in verse 22 it should rightly read "faith OF Jesus Christ." But those arguments don't even matter in light of v. 25, in which receiving these gifts are liked to the faith of the receiver.

It seems Romans 3:25 refutes the PB idea that ETERNAL salvation has nothing to do with the faith of the one saved...that such a person may be saved without exercising faith to receive the gift...that (As one PB told me once) a secular religion professor who completely denies the real truth of scripture, is in fact by the very nature of his interest in studying the bible as a literary work, revealing that he is in fact regenerate and will see eternal salvation.

 

[Herald]

I have some thoughts on this but I would rather a Primitive Baptist (or two) respond first.

 

[kyredneck]

What do Primitive Baptists do with Romans 3:25?

Rom. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

It seems the entire passage is referring not to the temporal benefits of Gospel repentance, but to the ETERNAL salvation purchased by Christ's propitiatory sacrifice on the cross, and the Justification and imputed righteousness that comes with it...but it says in v. 25 that this is "to be received by faith."

I realize PB's and some Calvinists will argue that in verse 22 it should rightly read "faith OF Jesus Christ." But those arguments don't even matter in light of v. 25, in which receiving these gifts are liked to the faith of the receiver.

It seems Romans 3:25 refutes the PB idea that ETERNAL salvation has nothing to do with the faith of the one saved...that such a person may be saved without exercising faith to receive the gift...that (As one PB told me once) a secular religion professor who completely denies the real truth of scripture, is in fact by the very nature of his interest in studying the bible as a literary work, revealing that he is in fact regenerate and will see eternal salvation.

I'm supposing you take the passage to mean that OUR faith, OUR will, OUR choice is that which applies the blood of Christ to us, and thereby we we obtain forgiveness of sins?

Do you also take this as a 'one time event', you know, walk the aisle, accept Christ and His offer of propitiation by his blood, and SHAZAAM, all your sins past, present, and future are now paid for and blotted out forever once and for all, you are now clean, immortality achieved, and you're bound for heaven?

I want to hear your application of the passage first, then I'll give mine.

 

[kyredneck]

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1831063#post1831063

 

[12strings]

I'm supposing you take the passage to mean that OUR faith, OUR will, OUR choice is that which applies the blood of Christ to us, and thereby we we obtain forgiveness of sins?

Do you also take this as a 'one time event', you know, walk the aisle, accept Christ and His offer of propitiation by his blood, and SHAZAAM, all your sins past, present, and future are now paid for and blotted out forever once and for all, you are now clean, immortality achieved, and you're bound for heaven?

I want to hear your application of the passage first, then I'll give mine.

As I said, I think there are good arguments for v. 22 refering to the faith (or faithfulnesss) OF Christ as that which saves us...however it is also:
-FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE (v.22)
-TO BE RECIEVED BY FAITH (v. 25)
Therefore, the gift of salvation, righteousness, justification, is recieved by faith of the recipient.

I Believe Salvation/Conversion/Regeneration are a one-time event, not progressive, in which we are justified and receive imputed righteousness and are adopted by God, and are therefore situationally holy and secured for heaven...though we are not yet experientially/practically perfect yet. (The idea of progressive sanctification).

 

[convicted1]

As I said, I think there are good arguments for v. 22 refering to the faith (or faithfulnesss) OF Christ as that which saves us...however it is also:
-FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE (v.22)
-TO BE RECIEVED BY FAITH (v. 25)
Therefore, the gift of salvation, righteousness, justification, is recieved by faith of the recipient.

I Believe Salvation/Conversion/Regeneration are a one-time event, not progressive, in which we are justified and receive imputed righteousness and are adopted by God, and are therefore situationally holy and secured for heaven...though we are not yet experientially/practically perfect yet. (The idea of progressive sanctification).

So you don't believe we are regenerated, and in this regeneration, the ability believe to comes sometime later?

 

[JimmyH]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

1John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[12strings]

So you don't believe we are regenerated, and in this regeneration, the ability believe to comes sometime later?

Perhaps logically, but not temporally. I would say a regenerate person is made alive with Christ (Eph. 2) and at that moment believes... Belief is an evidence of spiritual life.

 

[12strings]

I want to hear your application of the passage first, then I'll give mine.

Bump...waiting.

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm supposing you take the passage to mean that OUR faith, OUR will, OUR choice is that which applies the blood of Christ to us, and thereby we we obtain forgiveness of sins?

Do you also take this as a 'one time event', you know, walk the aisle, accept Christ and His offer of propitiation by his blood, and SHAZAAM, all your sins past, present, and future are now paid for and blotted out forever once and for all, you are now clean, immortality achieved, and you're bound for heaven?

I want to hear your application of the passage first, then I'll give mine.

those whom are the elect of god will prove and confirm that truth by receiving jesus thru faith as their Lord and saviour!

NO faith in Him, no salvation!

 

[12strings]

Oops, missed your link until now...QUOTED HERE;

I reiterate, our faith no more 'applies' the blood of Christ than the faith of the firstborn applied the blood of the passover lamb. We absolutely do not 'will' the blood of Christ to work for us. Period. The faith of the Hebrews had zilch to do with their redemption from the house of bondage, but their faith had everything to do with entering into the promised land of milk and honey, i.e. the BENEFITS of that redemption. And you're the one inserting/forcing eternal consequences into the passage.

As usual (I see you haven't changed any either) you have the cart before the horse, you have cause and effect reversed:

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1

21 But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn 3

Those that receive Him, those that come to Christ, have already been born from above, God has already wrought within them, i.e. the blood of Christ has already been applied.

1. This answer does not address Romans 3:25...it merely says that the other verses negate what it seems to say.

2. You say those who receive christ, the blood has already been applied...but Romans says those benifits are "received by faith." How do you reconcile the two? That's my primary question. I don't need you to tell me the PB position on the relationship between Eternal salvation and personal faith (none), I'm asking about this verse specifically.

 

[SovereignMercy]

Perhaps logically, but not temporally. I would say a regenerate person is made alive with Christ (Eph. 2) and at that moment believes... Belief is an evidence of spiritual life.

I am a PB and I agree.

 

[12strings]

I am a PB and I agree.

So would you disagree with the view expressed below...It was given to me by another Primitive Baptist.

the PB idea that ETERNAL salvation has nothing to do with the faith of the one saved...that such a person may be saved without exercising faith to receive the gift...that (As one PB told me once) a secular religion professor who completely denies the real truth of scripture, is in fact by the very nature of his interest in studying the bible as a literary work, revealing that he is in fact regenerate and will see eternal salvation.

 

[12strings]

FYI FOR THOSE INTERESTED...THE FOLLOWING IS AN EXCHANGE BETWEEN FOREST, A PRIMITIVE BAPTIST, AND ME...FROM THE BB ABOUT A YEAR AGO (THIS IS NOT ALL WE WROTE, BUT GIVES THE GIST OF OUR BACK & FORTH):


FOREST: Sometime in the elect's life God quickens them to a spiritual life, which usually comes unnoticed (like a breeze, we know not whence it cometh nor where it goeth). Sometime after they are born again, they are converted (changed from walking in the flesh too walking in the Spirit).

...Paul was taught at the feet of Gameael. He was well versed in the old testament scriptures. The natural man who has not been born again cannot discern spiritual things, they are foolishness unto him, 1 Cor 2:14.


12STRINGS: Let me see if I understand you:
1. Anyone who studies OT Theology must by definition be born again because if they weren't they wouldn't understand ANY of it?
2. Those who are born again may commit heinous sins without repentance?
3. Those born again may or may not actually believe the Gospel?


FOREST: The answer is yes to your first three questions. You will never understand the grace of God until you understand the depravity of man.


12STRINGS: I find this extremely surprising. There are countless "bible scholars" in secular institutions who reject the scriptures inspiration and reject the Jesus they point to. I am baffled as to how you can say that ALL of such people are by definition of their having read and studied the OT, born from above.


FOREST: Then you must not understand the meaning of 1 Cor 2:14, But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. The natural man has no desire to know God, or to want to read and study the scriptures.

FOREST: Is it my understanding that you believe that the natural man, void of the Spirit, will pursue righteousness? If so, what is your explination of 1 Cor 2:14?, and Ps 10:4?


12STRINGS: Yes, that is your understanding of what I believe...

... but NO, that is not what I beleive. I believe that God grants faith at the point of regeneration, and that faith is exercised to "recieve" (Rom 3) the righteousness and Justification purchased by Christ on the cross.


FOREST: Faith gives us access to the understanding that it was Christ that justified us. Rom 5:2.

 

[Yeshua1]

I am a PB and I agree.

That would be due to God at the 'right time" does BOTH an interanl and external work to save sinners!

the HS comes to grant them ears to hear, heart to respond, and he also takes the gospewl message of the cross to be the agent he uses to have that person elected beforehand by Will of God to hear and receive jesus thru faith!

So its the ole saved By grace, which is applied thru faith, and all of that is the work of God towards us!

 

[kyredneck]

....
1. This answer does not address Romans 3:25...it merely says that the other verses negate what it seems to say.

And that would be Hodge's second rule of interpretation, 'Scripture cannot contradict scripture'.

2. You say those who receive christ, the blood has already been applied...

Yes, and we're passive in that as explained a couple chapters on:

6 For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly.
8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.
10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life;
11 and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. Ro 5

While we were yet weak, sinners, and enemies, Christ justified and reconciled us through His blood.

...but Romans says those benifits are "received by faith." How do you reconcile the two? That's my primary question.

You want so badly for that to mean that it was 'your choice, your will, your decision' that placed you in Christ Jesus; never mind that it once again contradicts an abundance of scripture, like 1 Cor 1:30 or Ro 9:16 or Jn 1:13. A man can 'receive' nothing except it be given him from above [Jn 3:27]

...For our passover also hath been sacrificed, even Christ 1 Cor 5:7

Which points us to the type; on that dreadful night in Egypt it was the father who shed the blood and applied it to the doorpost and lintel, the firstborn was totally passive. The firstborn's faith had nothing to do with whether the blood did what God had promised or not, his faith would have everything to do with the temporal benefit of how he rested that night though.

Which is exactly the same [IMMENSE} temporal benefit that our faith in His blood obtains for us:

11 But Christ having come a high priest of the good things to come, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation,
12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling them that have been defiled, sanctify unto the cleanness of the flesh:
14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish unto God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Heb 9

A clean conscience, the value of which cannot be overstated, is one of the greatest if not the greatest benefit to be had from our temporal salvation in this temporal realm. But it is Christ Himself, our High Priest, who with His own blood obtained our eternal redemption, and that while we were yet weak, sick, and enemies.

 

[kyredneck]

Why your fixation on the Primitives 12strings? In the final analysis, would it have to do with their rejection of musical instruments in their worship service? You know, you being a musical director and all and playing all those musical instruments at Church and all, you sure there's not some resentment or dislike towards us on that account?

Just wonderin'.

 

[Yeshua1]

And that would be Hodge's second rule of interpretation, 'Scripture cannot contradict scripture'.



Yes, and we're passive in that as explained a couple chapters on:

6 For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly.
8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.
10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life;
11 and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. Ro 5

While we were yet weak, sinners, and enemies, Christ justified and reconciled us through His blood.



You want so badly for that to mean that it was 'your choice, your will, your decision' that placed you in Christ Jesus; never mind that it once again contradicts an abundance of scripture, like 1 Cor 1:30 or Ro 9:16 or Jn 1:13. A man can 'receive' nothing except it be given him from above [Jn 3:27]

...For our passover also hath been sacrificed, even Christ 1 Cor 5:7

Which points us to the type; on that dreadful night in Egypt it was the father who shed the blood and applied it to the doorpost and lintel, the firstborn was totally passive. The firstborn's faith had nothing to do with whether the blood did what God had promised or not, his faith would have everything to do with the temporal benefit of how he rested that night though.

Which is exactly the same [IMMENSE} temporal benefit that our faith in His blood obtains for us:

11 But Christ having come a high priest of the good things to come, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation,
12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling them that have been defiled, sanctify unto the cleanness of the flesh:
14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish unto God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Heb 9

A clean conscience, the value of which cannot be overstated, is one of the greatest if not the greatest benefit to be had from our temporal salvation in this temporal realm. But it is Christ Himself, our High Priest, who with His own blood obtained our eternal redemption while we were yet weak, sick, and enemies.

ALL of us are born sinners inneed of salvation though, and when one receives thru faith the person of Christ, God justifies us in Him!

God has ordained that its thru faith we receive the grace of the cross!

 

[12strings]

Why your fixation on the Primitives 12strings? In the final analysis, would it have to do with their rejection of musical instruments in their worship service? You know, you being a musical director and all and playing all those musical instruments at Church and all, you sure there's not some resentment or dislike towards us on that account?

Just wonderin'.

No resentment...I just had not heard of your beliefs at all until a year ago...It all sounded very odd to me...It took me a month or so of research and debate on here to get the point where I feel Like I can fairly explain your beliefs if someone asked me to.

Now, since it came up in a previous thread started by someone else...I thought I'd see if I could delve deeper into your scriptural justification for your positions, and how you explain certain texts.

The music side of it has nothing to do with it...I don't need a guitar, or even music to worship God...but I don't think they are forbidden, either, any more than pews or electric lights.

 

[SovereignMercy]

What are pews and electric lights?

PB churches are independent so there are a variety of beliefs depending on the church and the individual. Some I have visited in the past have Sunday Schools.