PB'S- Does the Holy Spirit use "means"

[npetreley]

Amen, Brother Joe.

I don't know of any verse in the Bible that says we're supposed to go out and win souls for Christ.

I do know of verse that tell us to spread the good news, though.

On a personal not, I actually resent the expression "win souls". I understand that people often think of it as being synonymous with "preach the Gospel", and they don't attribute the power of salvation to themselves. But the expression "win souls" implies that men can actually accomplish such a thing of their own power.

 

[Primitive Baptist]

All Primitive Baptists believe in "soul winning" in some sense. Scripture says, "...he that winneth souls is wise." (Prov. 11:30) What does this mean, though? "BRETHREN, if any of YOU do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (Jas. 5:19, 20) To "win" someone is to teach them and convert them to the right way. It has nothing to do with eternally saving souls from hell. In James 1:21, James exhorts the brethren to "...receive with meekness the engrafted word which is able to save your souls." One Arminian commentary states, "Though this phrase accurately describes the Word's work of producing initial salvation, IT IS BETTER IN THIS CONTEXT TO UNDERSTAND IT AS THE WORD'S ABILITY TO PRESERVE AND MATURE THE CHRISTIAN'S LIFE THROUGH TRIALS." I could not have defined conditional time salvation better myself.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Jude has something to say to the issue at hand. He tells Christians that we 'should save others with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.'

This is not the original language but the New Century Version says, 'Take others out of the fire, and save them. Show mercy mixed with fear to others, hating even their clothes which are dirty from sin.'

I have checked with several Greek scholars and they are saying that God wants us to be His ambassadors, even if we have to, with the aid of the Spirit, instill fear in their hearts, so we can snatch sinners from the flames of Hell, because even their clothing is marked by being human/sinful.

I know you, Joe and npetereley think you are protecting the glory of God that He might get all the honor and praise, and this is true. We, nevertheless, are ambassadors for Christ in spreading the Word which lead unto salvation and eternal life. We find little to nothing, and probably nothing about angels saving souls, but every Christian is an instrument in the hand of the Lord, in bring men and women to the knowledge and faith of and in Christ.

If we ever think that we are able to save a soul, we are way off the mark. I do not think that any born of the Spirit believer could ever think this idea. Nevertheless, God has ordained that we become 'ambassadors for Christ. [II Cor. 5:20] We are agents in His kingdom/church proclaiming the message of salvation through His blood, which comes to every sinner by faith. [Romans 5:1]

This is where Biblical theology differs from the teaching of John Calvin and all of his erring children even into this twenty-first century.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Primitive Baptist,

Thanks for your reflection on the Word. Your verse about those who bring sinners to Christ are wise; that verse and truth did not come to my mind. But thanks on behalf of all of us!

Ray

 

[pinoybaptist]

Ray Berrian said:

This is where Biblical theology differs from the teaching of John Calvin and all of his erring children even into this twenty-first century.

Where and when did John Calvin and any of his 'erring children' ever say that they are winning souls to Christ in the eternal sense ?

 

[Primitive Baptist]

I certainly have not.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Another verse of winning people to the Lord God is found in Daniel 12:3.

'And they who are wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and the they who turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever.'

People who neglect witnessing for Christ are not walking in the light of His truth nor are they in His perfect will. We all are witness, but some are negligent in carrying out His ministry in the world. [II Corinthians 5:18-19]

These kinds of Christians will have less rewards when they are evaluated at the Judgment Seat of Christ, a judgment for the Christians only. [I Cor. 3:11-15 & II Cor. 5:10]

Berrian

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Another verse of winning people to the Lord God is found in Daniel 12:3.

'And they who are wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and the they who turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever.'

People who neglect witnessing for Christ are not walking in the light of His truth nor are they in His perfect will. We all are witness, but some are negligent in carrying out His ministry in the world. [II Corinthians 5:18-19]

These kinds of Christians will have less rewards when they are evaluated at the Judgment Seat of Christ, a judgment for the Christians only. [I Cor. 3:11-15 & II Cor. 5:10]

Berrian

You'll get no argument from me regarding what we should do, and rewards. I just don't like the term "winning souls for Christ". Like I said, it's a personal preference. I know what most people mean when they say it.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Let me ask you, Ray.
Prove to me, from 2 Corinthians 5:20, by context, that every believer is an ambassador for Christ, that that is what the Holy Spirit, through Paul's letter, particularly his second letter to the Corinthians is teaching.

And where in the Bible does it say that every Christian is to be a witness to Christ to a fallen world ? Use the word 'witness' since that is the word you use to condemn other 'kinds of Christians' to shame at the judgment seat of Christ ?

 

[UMP]

No "means" here.

John 3:8 "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

 

[Ray Berrian]

nepeterley,

I agree with you; the saying that one is a witness for Christ is rinkydink. It should be a way of life for we who have been touched by the wind of the Holy Spirit, to share the Gospel. To me, if people keep a list of how many people they lead to Christ, I think this is rediculous.

I do remember when I was actively pastoring that we had to keep 'average attendance, how many new members, and in one church that I pastored we had to jot down how many people we believed to have found Christ or were found of Him on annual reports.

 

[Ray Berrian]

pinobaptist,

You said, 'Let me ask you, Ray. Prove to me, from 2 Corinthians 5:20, by context, that every believer is an
ambassador for Christ . . . '

Ray: I am not even going to do this; if you cannot see this truth there, you must be spiritually nearsighted. Check one of your Greek commentators for help.


You said, ' . . . that that is what the Holy Spirit, through Paul's letter,
particularly his second letter to the Corinthians is teaching.

Ray: Just at a quick glance II Corinthians chapter four verses 3-6 reminds us that the Gospel must be revealed to sinners so they can hear the truth. Satan has blinded the minds and hearts of all lost ones. When the Gospel is explained it becomes the 'light' vs. 4, that reveals Christ through the Holy Spirit. Thanks be to God! As Paul says, 'We are not preaching about our ideas, but rather we are preaching about Jesus, our Lord.

You said, 'And where in the Bible does it say that every Christian is to be a witness to
Christ to a fallen world ?'

Ray: Read Mark 16:16. We are to witness/preach to EVERY CREATURE, minus household pets. Every sinner deserves to hear the truth of the Gospel.

You said, 'Use the word 'witness' since that is the word you use to condemn other 'kinds of Christians' to shame at the judgment seat of Christ ?'

Ray: I used your word witness above. I am not condemning people who do not witness to their faith. When they get to Heaven they will feel embarrassed because of their negligence.

Many Christians for various reasons will be sheepish and mortified when they stand in the Presence of the Lord the God of all holiness, [I John 2:28] when the rapture takes place in the future. [I Corinthians 15:51-58 & I Thess. 4:16-17]

 

[BrotherJoe]

Brother Ray:

BROTHER RAY BERRIAN SAID: Just at a quick glance II Corinthians chapter four verses 3-6 reminds us that the Gospel must be revealed to sinners so they can hear the truth. Satan has blinded the minds and hearts of all lost ones. When the Gospel is explained it becomes the 'light' vs. 4, that reveals Christ through the Holy Spirit.

ME (BROTHER JOE): 2 Corinthians must be understood in light of what Paul already stated in 1 Corinthians and that is that unregenerated lost people (i.e. those WITHOUT the Holy Ghost) CANNOT AND WILL NOT ACCEPT OR BELIEVE THE GOSPEL when it is preached.

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness..." (1 Cor 1:18)

Only those who ALREADY (PRESENT TENSE) have the Holy Ghost will accept the preaching of the gospel according to that same verse which goes on to state, "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; BUT UNTO US THAT ARE SAVED (PRESENT TENSE) it is the power of God. " (1 Cor 1:18)

An unregenerated person cannot do that which is pleasing to God by accepting the gospel, "So then they that are in the flesh CANNOT PLEASE GOD." (Romans 8:8) Only those who have the spirit can do this, "9 BUT ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you..."(Romans 8:9)


Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoe]

Brother Ray,


By the way Brother Ray, did you know that many of the famous catch words that Arminians use in their gospel invintations for one to "become a child of God" are no where used by God in scripture pertaining to eternal salvation? What are these words- "invite", "invintation","accept", "decision","sinners prayer" etc-and the list goes on and on and on.


By grace,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoe]

Brother Ray:


BROTHER RAY SAID: Jude has something to say to the issue at hand. He tells Christians that we 'should save others with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.'

This is not the original language but the New Century Version says, 'Take others out of the fire, and save them. Show mercy mixed with fear to others, hating even their clothes which are dirty from sin.'


ME (BROTHER JOE): Brother Ray, I think the problem you have is whenever you see the word saved in the bible you assume it must refer to eternal salvation, but this isnt always the case. Please read this quote from Michael Gowens from his book Temporal Salvation-it will take me a great time to transcribe it so I ask you please read it despite it's length

"Perhaps the premier illustration of this principle is the use of the word "to save" in the scripture. The individual who assumes that the word "salvation" always refers to deliverance from eternal punishment faces an embarrassing hurdle when he attempts to reconcile the verse that says salvation is by grace, not man's works with the verse that says, "SAVE YOURSELVES from this untoward generation (Acts 2:40) with the further text, "Woman shal BE SAVED in childbearing (1 Tim 2:15). If the verb "to save" is interpreted in terms of its popular usage, then 1 Tim 2:15 makes childbirth a condition to eternal salvation....In fact, the verb "to save" generally takes the context of deliverance. Sometimes it is employed to speak of deliverance from physical or moral danger... Somtimes, it is used in reference to deliverance from the intellectual bondage of false teaching. And, yes, sometimes the verb speaks of deliverance in this ultimate sense, from the penalty, the power, or presence of sin. IT IS INTERESTING TO NOTE THAT THE BIBLE USES THE VERB "TO SAVE" IN A TRIPARTITE WAY; WE "HAVE BEEN" SAVED (IN THE PAST TENSE), "ARE BEING" SAVED (IN THE PRESENT TENSE), AND "SHALL YET BE" SAVED (IN THE FUTURE TENSE). See Titus 2:11-14, 2 Cor 1:10, Hebrews 9:24-28, etc for illustrations of this three-fold use of the concept of "salvation"

Thus context not the dictionary determines the meanings of words in the Bible and often times people misinterpret the word "saved" to apply in an enternal context when in fact it is only speaking of being saved in the present tense from the evilnes of this world, false teaching, sin in our lives, etc-thinsgs we really do need to be saved from and things the gospel does save us from.

Goodnight and God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[pinoybaptist]

Ray:

You are way off base in what you are saying. Nowhere in 2 Corinthians does Paul say that each Christian is an ambassador.

Rather, that they of the ministry are ambassadors of God to those who are of the kingdom of God. Read it closely and forget about commentators. Look closely at the "you's and us'es" in that letter, and you will see that the concern was about those of like faith and those charged with preaching and teaching the gospel.
Does the United States send ambassadors to enemy countries in times of war ? Do the enemy countries send ambassadors to the United States ?
Are you of the kingdom of God ? Or are you of the kingdom of Satan. Does the kingdom of God have anything to do with the kingdom of Satan that God will send ambassadors to a condemned, soon to be destroyed world ?
No. By the grace of God, my vision of this scripture is 30/30, whereas your eyes see only what your Bible School taught you.
Those in the ministry are ambassadors of God to those in the church and kingdom of God on this earth in time who will soon be residing in Heaven with Him.

Here is the complete.

Now then we (Paul and those in the ministry) are ambassadors for Christ,

proof ? Look at the next verse:

as though God did beseech you by us:

and:

we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Ooopss ! There goes your 'ambassador' theology.

 

[Ray Berrian]

pinobaptist,

Have you taken any thought to what you said in your post, or do you merely like to argue anything that someone says who is not a Calvinist?

I am embarrassed, for you, in that I have to explain such a simple truth as is laid down for us in II Corinthians 5:18-21.

You tried to reflect ideas coming from the above reference.

You said, 'Ray: You are way off base in what you are saying. Nowhere in 2 Corinthians does Paul say that each Christian is an ambassador.'

Ray: God said that He has ' . . . given to us the ministry of reconciliation.' With your idea in mind I guess we Christians are trying to reconcile ourselves toward God or each other; who knows what you really mean?

You said, 'Rather, that they of the ministry are ambassadors of God to those who are
of the kingdom of God. Read it closely and forget about commentators.
Look closely at the "you's and us'es" in that letter, and you will see that the
concern was about those of like faith and those charged with preaching and
teaching the gospel.'

Ray: Oh, I get it. Do not listen to anyone who has been trained in exegetical interpretation. We are to listen to you or Mr. Camping who was never guided through the Scriptures at any Bible College or seminary, either Calvinist or Arminian.

You said, 'Does the United States send ambassadors to enemy countries in times of
war ?'

Ray: Most often if not always they withdraw their diplomats from a country we are at war with in modern times.

Next question: Do the enemy countries send ambassadors to the United States ?'

Ray: Yes, France, German and Russia send representatives to the United Nations and/or their own embassy. Iran has a representative in the U.N.'

Question: 'Are you of the kingdom of God ? Or are you of the kingdom of Satan.'

Ray: I am trusting only in the atonement of Jesus to save my never dying soul, which means that I am part of His bride.'

Question: Does the kingdom of God have anything to do with the kingdom of Satan that
God will send ambassadors to a condemned, soon to be destroyed world ?'

Ray: Absolutely! Read Matthew 10:16 & Luke 10:3. Luke 10:3-11 reminds you that Jesus Himself said, 'I send you forth as lambs among wolves. . . '

In fact, Satan sends his people into the presence of the church. Read: Acts 20:29. The evil one sends his ambassadors into the true churches.

You said, 'No. By the grace of God, my vision of this scripture is 30/30, whereas your
eyes see only what your Bible School taught you.'

Ray: I have been taught by the Holy Spirit, [I John 2:27] not via my Biblical institutions.
I left a seminary in Philadelphia because the professor was adamant about Calvin's five points. Dr. Rudolph taught that God is the author of sin and makes some to sin and others are drawn to become the elect. Even when the Christian sins it is within His Divine plan, was his view.

You said, 'Those in the ministry are ambassadors of God to those in the church and
kingdom of God on this earth in time who will soon be residing in Heaven
with Him.'

Ray: If you mean me teaching you truth and the correct interpretation you are correct.

You said, 'Here is the complete. Now then we (Paul and those in the ministry) are ambassadors for Christ, proof ? Look at the next verse: as though God did beseech you by us: and: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.'

Ray: Only God knows what you are trying to express above. Are you saying that the saved brethren in the church are saying, as ambassadors to each other, "Be reconciled to God?" That's like the preaching to the Elders, "Get saved because I know you are already reconciled.

You said, 'Ooopss ! There goes your 'ambassador' theology.'

Ray: Did you go to "Ooopss Theological Seminary somewhere in Maryland?

Are you trying to defend Biblical truth or are you confusing the brethren?

If you attended a Roman Catholic seminary in Maryland I am sure even they would have given a better interpretation of this Corinthian passage than you are suggesting to us.

"Ray"

 

[pinoybaptist]

Blind.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by BrotherJoe:
Brother Ray,


By the way Brother Ray, did you know that many of the famous catch words that Arminians use in their gospel invintations for one to "become a child of God" are no where used by God in scripture pertaining to eternal salvation? What are these words- "invite", "invintation","accept", "decision","sinners prayer" etc-and the list goes on and on and on.


By grace,

Brother Joe

But John 1:12 says, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

 

[pinoybaptist]

by gb93433

But John 1:12 says, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

And therein lies the problem. Arminians stop at this verse, and build a whole theology of being God's ambassadors to an enemy kingdom.

Take a look at verse 13:

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

They received him and believed him because they were born by the will of God, not as a result of any decision, invitation, acceptance, or sinner's prayer.