Since everyone is "non-elect" at one time this is not a problem. We become the elect once we are "In Him". (Ephesians 1:4) God did not decide that Mark Mitchell would be saved (elect) God decided that all who believed would be saved. (John 1:12)
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Pelagianism: The Boogie Man
- Thread starter Revmitchell
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Since everyone is "non-elect" at one time this is not a problem. We become the elect once we are "In Him". (Ephesians 1:4) God did not decide that Mark Mitchell would be saved (elect) God decided that all who believed would be saved. (John 1:12)
glad4mercy
Active Member
That would be Corporate election, which I do believe in (the church is elect of God in Christ the Elect of God) but I also believe in individual, personal election of believers. I basically have closer to Arminianism view on election, but I do not think God looked down the corridors of time to see who would believe. The exhaustive foreknowledge of God makes that unnecessary. NOTHING pre-existed His foreknowledge, and that includes election. And foreknowledge did not preexist election. Known unto God are all His works from the foundation...
A. Election did not preexist before foreknowledge
B. Foreknowledge did not precede election, at least not in a temporal sense.
C. These occurred outside of time
D. But our salvation occurs in time
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Neither do I. It wasn't necessary to do so.
glad4mercy
Active Member
Amen.
I think the point of difference between limited/unlimited would be in the actual intent of God to save some, or to potentially save all.
glad4mercy
Active Member
Well, I would say it was not a "potential to save all" because God knew not all would believe. More like God ordained that all who believe will have eternal life, knowing who would believe, but not "looking down the corridors of time", because God's exhaustive foreknowledge makes such a thing unnecessary
Anyways, the fact that they did not believe does not mean that God did not give them grace to believe. The point of difference is resistable vs irresistable grace and going even further back, the basis of God's election. People act like Arminianism and Calvinism are a razor's edge apart, and they are in some matters, but in the conclusions they draw, it is like night or day. That is why the same people that try to say they are close also say Arminianism and Calvinism is an either/or proposition. But I disagree. To say it (Arminianism/Calvinism) is an either or is a false dichotomy, and ignores the fact that there are many shades of both, and also there are things in both that are speculative. JMHO.
Concerning PREVENIENT GRACE. If you just go by what the words mean, prevenient means "going before" so it is grace that comes before faith. Calvinists believe in a prevenient (before faith) grace, they say regeneration precedes faith. Therefore, it is a prevenient grace. Now, before Calvinists start telling me I don't know what I'm talking about, I perfectly know exactly what prevenient grace means, and why Calvinism is different, but I am only going by the actual MEANING of the term without the baggage attached to it.
To me, Prevenient Grace AS I UNDERSTAND it, is exactly the same as what Calvinists call regeneration. Except Calvinists see Grace as irresistable. I know perfectly well that my definition of Prevenient Grace is not the same as Arminians, but that is why I say I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian. Another reason Calvinism/Arminianism is not an either/or proposition, IMHO.
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the will of the creature cannot hinder/stop the will of the Creator.
glad4mercy
Active Member
Truth! And the will of the Creator is to save all who believe.
Believed upon jesus based on the will of God, or of themselves?
glad4mercy
Active Member
When a person believes, it is based on the will of God.. When a person does not believe and perishes, it is of themselves, and not based on the will of God.
glad4mercy
Active Member
True, but have you ever done anything contrary to the Will of your Creator? Are you going to say you havent? Your and my disobedience does not hinder or stop the will of the Creator.
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Do you have anything to add to the op
glad4mercy
Active Member
No, you said it well. Anyone who knows true Arminianism knows it is not semi-pelagian. And Calvinism is not semi gnostic. That is something I hear people who deny original sin say. They think original sin and moral inability is gnostic, which is not so. Arminians and Wesleyans do not deny original sin and moral inability, therefore they are not pelagian or semi pelagian. original sin and moral inability are not gnostic, therefore Calvinists are not semi gnostic. I myself have been accused of being semi-gnostic, because I believe what Romans 5 teaches. The guy was an admitted semi pelagian. There are semi-pelagians, pelagians, gnostics, and semi gnostics out there, but true calvinism and true arminianism is none of thse.
...and I claim neither. but such misrepresentations of fellow christians are deplorable. And yes, I hold that there are christians among calvinism and arminianism.
I do agree with the op
BAD TYPING because I am holding a gift of GOD, MY BABY GRANDDAUGHTER,and only have one hand
"glad4mercy,
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No...more like this;
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
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No...more like this;
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
RM once again offers a wonderful edifying post.
glad4mercy
Active Member
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God. (1 Peter 1:2) Election precedes believing, therefore
a. they were chosen before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4) based on God's foreknowledge (1 Peter 1:2), which is exhaustive and without beginning or end, (Acts 15:18)
b. Chosen in HIM (Ephesians 1:4) before they believed, which is an event that happens in time.
c. After they believed, they were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. (Ephesians 1:13). Reception of the Holy Spirit FOLLOWS faith. (see also Acts 2:38)
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those would would believe are the chosen. (John1:12) Chosen to be Holy and blameless (not saved). Epehesians 1:4
We become elect once we are "in Him".
Wrong and anti biblical e verytime you post it...oh wait..I get it...it is an April fool's day post.
I think you are incorrectly using biblical foreknowledge.God does not "know" what they will "do" first.....then elect
God foreknown "them" as dead sinners.....then elects them before they have done anything good or evil.
Rm has posted an April fool's prank.
But according to most Calvinists God knew Adam would fall and already had the plan of salvation worked out. So God "looked down the corridors of time", saw what was going to happen and made a remedy.
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