Pelagianism: The Boogie Man

[utilyan]

God did not "let his son die for me." It was the Father's will that the Son die for me.

and as far as what God can do, He may do as HE chooses and is under no obligation to humankind.

He first loved, not we.

He first gave, not we.

He is the creator and sustainer of all, not we.

You seem to give humankind a lot of ability to achieve that which only God is the author and sustainer.

There is only one definition of all powerful.

All powerful mean not lacking in power.

Jesus said, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." (Matthew 28:18)

That includes everything, and no lack of authority.

That you seem to imply that God is less then ALL powerful would also oblige the Christ to be less than All authority.

At one time I had authority over many. They would come when I called, and suffer if I obliged. I did not have near the authority that Christ has, for He has ALL authority.

At one time I had power over many. They would submit to my demands, and conform to my desires. I did not have near the power that God has, for He has ALL power.

Yet, there are some who would puff upon their own power, their own ability as if such were self generated or innate and not as Christ told the judge in His trial, "given to you by My Father."

In the same manner of authority, Jesus stated, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Do you not take that statement by the Christ as truthful?

It is true among many things. You can't beat your heart one time unless it has been granted by the Father.

Hey God is under no obligation to make any heart beat keep going............There it is though, thats one step towards Christ.

He can have everyone he doesn't want to know about Jesus drop dead right now.

Name one ability of my own that divinely exists on its own and is not God given.

There is no such thing as "HOLY evil".



" as far as what God can do, He may do as HE chooses and is under no obligation to humankind."

I don't believe that you believe that. Can he run a system that was NOT CALVINISM if he wanted to?


You got no problem believing God put out a forest fire with a flood of water.

But you can't fathom him telling a child to put it out with a paper towel.


You are only allowing what you perceive as God capacity based on if YOU were God.

If I were God sure I might need a big microscope to have a good look at things, that doesn't mean God needs a microscope.



"God did not "let his son die for me." It was the Father's will that the Son die for me."

God let his son die for you:


Romans 8
32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?


God did not command any man to crucify Jesus. Killing Jesus was a SIN, God did not kill Jesus. He let his son die for you.


There was a whole argument over who killed Jesus.

Acts 5

27When they had brought them, they stood them before the Council. The high priest questioned them,28saying, “We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man’s blood upon us.” 29But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men. 30“The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. 31“He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32“And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.”



The way folks present God as a cosmic bully is an insulting joke, its plain laughable because its exactly how a ignorant HUMAN would behave with Godlike power.

IF You still thinking God is out to prove to the universe he's God. God is perfect, he doesn't have to do anything.

When sin came that didn't ruin God's day. It messed up your day, not his. All this and everything he does is for your sake.



God has all authority, God can do what he wants. GOD has ALL POWER, More then you.

Last I heard, God commanded that you never sin ever again.

So you tell me how you haven't sinned in years, Or is GOD not "all power"

You said : All powerful mean not lacking in power.'


So you don't sin do you?

 

[Yeshua1]

It is true among many things. You can't beat your heart one time unless it has been granted by the Father.

Hey God is under no obligation to make any heart beat keep going............There it is though, thats one step towards Christ.

He can have everyone he doesn't want to know about Jesus drop dead right now.

Name one ability of my own that divinely exists on its own and is not God given.

There is no such thing as "HOLY evil".



" as far as what God can do, He may do as HE chooses and is under no obligation to humankind."

I don't believe that you believe that. Can he run a system that was NOT CALVINISM if he wanted to?


You got no problem believing God put out a forest fire with a flood of water.

But you can't fathom him telling a child to put it out with a paper towel.


You are only allowing what you perceive as God capacity based on if YOU were God.

If I were God sure I might need a big microscope to have a good look at things, that doesn't mean God needs a microscope.



"God did not "let his son die for me." It was the Father's will that the Son die for me."

God let his son die for you:


Romans 8
32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?


God did not command any man to crucify Jesus. Killing Jesus was a SIN, God did not kill Jesus. He let his son die for you.


There was a whole argument over who killed Jesus.

Acts 5

27When they had brought them, they stood them before the Council. The high priest questioned them,28saying, “We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man’s blood upon us.” 29But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men. 30“The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. 31“He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32“And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.”



The way folks present God as a cosmic bully is an insulting joke, its plain laughable because its exactly how a ignorant HUMAN would behave with Godlike power.

IF You still thinking God is out to prove to the universe he's God. God is perfect, he doesn't have to do anything.

When sin came that didn't ruin God's day. It messed up your day, not his. All this and everything he does is for your sake.



God has all authority, God can do what he wants. GOD has ALL POWER, More then you.

Last I heard, God commanded that you never sin ever again.

So you tell me how you haven't sinned in years, Or is GOD not "all power"

You said : All powerful mean not lacking in power.'


So you don't sin do you?

Can God save any sinner apart from the Cross, and the working of the Holy Spirit?
Is God free to exercise sovereignty in salvation?

 

[glad4mercy]

Im not an arm. Election is purely corporate. God elects those that believe

I'm not an Arm either. I don't believe election is purely corporate. I believe it is both corporate and personal. But we can agree to disagree on that.

Those who believe are the elect of God. But known unto God are all His works from the foundation of the world. Including His salvific works.

Do I believe that God elects some to salvation? Yes. Do I believe that those who are not saved are not saved because God's purpose is in their damnation? No, ( other than the obvious fact that God will punish those who in the hardness and impenitence of their heart store up wrath for themselves, ignoring the fact that the goodness of God is leading them to repentance). Those who are saved are saved in the will of God, those who are lost are lost because they rejected the council of God.

SO I believe in individual predestination but reject firmly double predestination.

 

[Revmitchell]

Do I believe that God elects some to salvation? Yes. Do I believe that those who are not saved are not saved because God's purpose is in their damnation? No,

It makes no sense your position here. If God elects some to salvation but does not elect others by that very act He has elected others to damnation.

 

[glad4mercy]

It makes no sense your position here. If God elects some to salvation but does not elect others by that very act He has elected others to damnation.

No, that would be double predestination, which I've already said I reject. God does not elect them to damnation, they themselves choose damnation. And I do not hold to TULIP if that helps. Once again, my position is this.

S. Seperation- Natural man is dead/ seperated from God in trespasses and sibs

P. Propitiation. Jesus died for all men. The price of death was paid for every man, but only applied/ communicated to those who believe. Christ's death satisfies the righteous judgement of God when applied to those who believe

I. Inability- the natural man is unable to come to Jesus unless He is drawn. This drawing is accomplished by the preaching of the Gospel and the ministry of the Holy Spirit who says "let everyone who thirsts. come drink freely of the life that flows from the throne of grace

C- conversion- everyone who repents and believes is freely justified, regenerated, sanctified, and adopted, eventually to be glorified

E- eternal life- Jesus sheep hear His voice, He knows them and they follow Him. He gives them eternal life, they shall never perish. Neither shall anyone pluck them out of His hand.

We are elect based on the foreknowledge of God. 1 Peter 1;2. We were chosen before we did anything. But we are not saved unless we believe and repent. Election took place in eternity. Conversion happens in time. So in time things are contingent, but in the eternal mind knowledge of God, they are so certain, it's like it already happened. Two very different realms, equally real and non-contradictory

 

[Revmitchell]

No, that would be double predestination, which I've already said I reject. God does not elect them to damnation, they themselves choose damnation. And I do not hold to TULIP if that helps. Once again, my position is this.

If God chooses to elect some but rejects others for that same election then yes He has elected them to damnation. Period. There is no getting around that.

 

[Yeshua1]

If God chooses to elect some but rejects others for that same election then yes He has elected them to damnation. Period. There is no getting around that.

God has ordained what their willful rejection of Christ will merit in the end!

 

[Revmitchell]

God has ordained what their willful rejection of Christ will merit in the end!

That does not address the issue.

 

[utilyan]

Its like someone who shows up points a gun at someone who can't move can't walk. Oh hey I'm going to pull the trigger if you don't want to die just move out of the way.....thanks.


Guess who's idea of Jesus would walk up to a pool with four children drowning, could save all, decides just to save two and lets them know they should be grateful they didn't end up like the children he let drown?


Its just a anti-christian insult to God clothed in a bully's attempt to force false humility.

 

[Yeshua1]

That does not address the issue.

Why not?

 

[glad4mercy]

If God chooses to elect some but rejects others for that same election then yes He has elected them to damnation. Period. There is no getting around that.

Well, brother Mitchell, that would DEPEND on the basis of their election.

What do you think " elect according to the foreknowledge of God means?"

 

[glad4mercy]

Its like someone who shows up points a gun at someone who can't move can't walk. Oh hey I'm going to pull the trigger if you don't want to die just move out of the way.....thanks.


Guess who's idea of Jesus would walk up to a pool with four children drowning, could save all, decides just to save two and lets them know they should be grateful they didn't end up like the children he let drown?


Its just a anti-christian insult to God clothed in a bully's attempt to force false humility.

Utilyan and Rev. Mitchell. I am no Calvinist. With that said, which of the points below do you disagree with? Because I can't imagine what you are disagreeing with me about. This is my SIMPLE assertion boiled down to four points

A. God draws

B. Man resists and is damned or man repents and believes unto salvation

C. God knows and has known from eternity past who is who. There was never a instance where God did not know.

D. Whom God foreknew, not only corporately, but personally, He predestined and elected to salvation and glory

The only reason you would find fault with c and d is if you are an open theist. But if God's knowledge is not exhaustive, He is not infinite, and I do not worship a finite God.

 

[Revmitchell]

Well, brother Mitchell, that would DEPEND on the basis of their election.

What do you think " elect according to the foreknowledge of God means?"

God knew that He was going to save those who would believe. it was His plan from the beginning. Election is based on being "in Christ" and only leaves room for corporate election.

 

[Revmitchell]

Utilyan and Rev. Mitchell. I am no Calvinist. With that said, which of the points below do you disagree with? Because I can't imagine what you are disagreeing with me about. This is my SIMPLE assertion boiled down to four points

A. God draws

B. Man resists and is damned or man repents and believes unto salvation

C. God knows and has known from eternity past who is who. There was never a instance where God did not know.

D. Whom God foreknew, not only corporately, but personally, He predestined and elected to salvation and glory

The only reason you would find fault with c and d is if you are an open theist. But if God's knowledge is not exhaustive, He is not infinite, and I do not worship a finite God.

You were doing so well. I thought here is someone who holds to reformed positions that has respect for those with whom they disagree with. Until this whole open theism thing. Sad you felt it was necessary to go there.

 

[glad4mercy]

You were doing so well. I thought here is someone who holds to reformed positions that has respect for those with whom they disagree with. Until this whole open theism thing. Sad you felt it was necessary to go there.

I did not say you believe in open theism. I said the only reason one would take issue with points c and d of earlier is if they are open theists. If I am wrong on that, I am open to being corrected.

I assume you are ok with all 4 points I listed. If not, which do you disagree with and why?

As far as disagreeing with you, I have not disagreed with anything you have said, other than election is not personal as well as corporate ( I believe it is both) and your assertion that if God predestines some to glory, it necessitates that He predestined the rest to damnation. This is double predestination and equal ultimate, which I reject.

God elects some to glory, but elects no one to damnation. It is not a contradiction, because the basis of election does not necessitate equal ultimacy or double predestination. Man is damned because He rejects the council of God for Him.

 

[glad4mercy]

God knew that He was going to save those who would believe. it was His plan from the beginning. Election is based on being "in Christ" and only leaves room for corporate election.

I agreed completely up to the last seven words. Nothing you said up to that point precludes God foreknowing and electing individuals. He elects them according to His foreknowledge. God can foreknow and foreordain individuals before they are born. He did so with Jeremiah. ( Jeremiah 1:5). He knew you and I before we were born, too. Do you not believe this?

 

[utilyan]

Utilyan and Rev. Mitchell. I am no Calvinist. With that said, which of the points below do you disagree with? Because I can't imagine what you are disagreeing with me about. This is my SIMPLE assertion boiled down to four points

A. God draws

B. Man resists and is damned or man repents and believes unto salvation

C. God knows and has known from eternity past who is who. There was never a instance where God did not know.

D. Whom God foreknew, not only corporately, but personally, He predestined and elected to salvation and glory

The only reason you would find fault with c and d is if you are an open theist. But if God's knowledge is not exhaustive, He is not infinite, and I do not worship a finite God.

John 6

44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

This doesn't say everyone the Father draws comes to Jesus. It says everyone who comes to Jesus has been drawn by the Father.

This situation slightly changes at the cross:

John 12

32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

All men are drawn by Jesus.


God can give a person access to complete knowledge. But God cannot SIN, he will not access knowledge based on a motivation of FEAR.

God is not afraid.

Things get weird when we force our limitations and make God temporal.

Suppose I was given access knowledge of like a criminal record that not only shows past but future sins, It would be a sin on my part not to trust you and based on a motivation of fear to access that knowledge.

God can at will, in the blink of an eye put everyone in heaven, despite whatever spiritual mechanics are not satisfied.

God exists eternally the past, present and future all known to God always.


IF God chooses to have people with a free will in sense he does not determine the choices for them that IS God's choice.

He can play you like a vinyl record. You wrote the song, he knows the song, he can put the needle on the beginning, go through past present and future. You still wrote the song.


Suppose though God wanted to "limit" himself rather then sit always outside of time, he sits down on earth right now today.

God is so omnipotent he can deal with all the free angency he wants.

God does not need "power". Often Its like some folks don't believe God can move your car unless he has a tow truck.

God can fix you a universe, where you are God and you yourself can fix up billions of free wills. and you know and control everything. And you tell him ok God.....I'm going to let you control one atom, one little speck of sand in this universe..... Jesus is going to win.

Point being God will get his will even in a system thousand times WORST then open thiesm.


The crown doesn't make the king. Jesus doesn't have a crown of gold and jewels, Its a crown of thorns.

God holds the keys to reality, there is nothing that is not impossible.


You have free will. But God can for example setup a situation where you are evil for the sake of saving other people.

God is not just running a ant farm based on patting himself on the back, we are all family.

Romans 11

28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.


"you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience"
Think about how much God is going out of his way....to defend sinner as basically your hero.

You were shown mercy because someone else disobeyed God. Implying that you would not have been given mercy if they didn't disobey.

And now God wants you to be the hero to the disobedient, for them to receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.

"so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy."

Finally God put all the "good" people in the same basket as the "bad" people.

"God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all."

Family. If you are a father you are going to make a priority to help and save the child who is worst off.

Someone who has highest compassion for others will always look to the well being and standing of another rather then themselves.

Heaven isn't heaven unless everyone they care for is okay.

 

[glad4mercy]

John 6

44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

This doesn't say everyone the Father draws comes to Jesus. It says everyone who comes to Jesus has been drawn by the Father.

This situation slightly changes at the cross:

John 12

32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

All men are drawn by Jesus.


God can give a person access to complete knowledge. But God cannot SIN, he will not access knowledge based on a motivation of FEAR.

God is not afraid.

Things get weird when we force our limitations and make God temporal.

Suppose I was given access knowledge of like a criminal record that not only shows past but future sins, It would be a sin on my part not to trust you and based on a motivation of fear to access that knowledge.

God can at will, in the blink of an eye put everyone in heaven, despite whatever spiritual mechanics are not satisfied.

God exists eternally the past, present and future all known to God always.


IF God chooses to have people with a free will in sense he does not determine the choices for them that IS God's choice.

He can play you like a vinyl record. You wrote the song, he knows the song, he can put the needle on the beginning, go through past present and future. You still wrote the song.


Suppose though God wanted to "limit" himself rather then sit always outside of time, he sits down on earth right now today.

God is so omnipotent he can deal with all the free angency he wants.

God does not need "power". Often Its like some folks don't believe God can move your car unless he has a tow truck.

God can fix you a universe, where you are God and you yourself can fix up billions of free wills. and you know and control everything. And you tell him ok God.....I'm going to let you control one atom, one little speck of sand in this universe..... Jesus is going to win.

Point being God will get his will even in a system thousand times WORST then open thiesm.


The crown doesn't make the king. Jesus doesn't have a crown of gold and jewels, Its a crown of thorns.

God holds the keys to reality, there is nothing that is not impossible.


You have free will. But God can for example setup a situation where you are evil for the sake of saving other people.

God is not just running a ant farm based on patting himself on the back, we are all family.

Romans 11

28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.


"you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience"
Think about how much God is going out of his way....to defend sinner as basically your hero.

You were shown mercy because someone else disobeyed God. Implying that you would not have been given mercy if they didn't disobey.

And now God wants you to be the hero to the disobedient, for them to receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.

"so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy."

Finally God put all the "good" people in the same basket as the "bad" people.

"God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all."

Family. If you are a father you are going to make a priority to help and save the child who is worst off.

Someone who has highest compassion for others will always look to the well being and standing of another rather then themselves.

Heaven isn't heaven unless everyone they care for is okay.

There is so many things here, I will have to reply in pieces.

A. I never said everyone the Father draws comes to Jesus. In fact, I said the exact opposite.

B. Agreed that the Jesus was lifted up to draw all men to Himself

C. I don't know what your point is that God is not afraid. Of course He's not.

D. Based on a motivation of fear, access knowledge? If God is Omniscient, which He is, why would He have to "access" knowledge. And if He is Almighty, what would possibly make Him afraid?

E. Rather than answer point by point the rest, I will tell you what I agree with you on. The rest is stuff trying to respond to things I never said.

I agree with the following basic gist of what you are saying. 1. God's sovereignty and human freedom are compatible, 2. God draws all men, but allows them to choose if they come 3. God does not want any to perish, 4. God does not need anything, including us. 5. God is not temporal. 6. God would win in any scenario He might have chosen. 7. The fact that we have freedom to make choices does not limit the power and Soveriegnty of God, creating a loop with point one to close the loop.

So these are the things we agree on. Does that suffice?

 

[utilyan]

There is so many things here, I will have to reply in pieces.

A. I never said everyone the Father draws comes to Jesus. In fact, I said the exact opposite.

B. Agreed that the Jesus was lifted up to draw all men to Himself

C. I don't know what your point is that God is not afraid. Of course He's not.

D. Based on a motivation of fear, access knowledge? If God is Omniscient, which He is, why would He have to "access" knowledge. And if He is Almighty, what would possibly make Him afraid?

E. Rather than answer point by point the rest, I will tell you what I agree with you on. The rest is stuff trying to respond to things I never said.

I agree with the following basic gist of what you are saying. 1. God's sovereignty and human freedom are compatible, 2. God draws all men, but allows them to choose if they come 3. God does not want any to perish, 4. God does not need anything, including us. 5. God is not temporal. 6. God would win in any scenario He might have chosen. 7. The fact that we have freedom to make choices does not limit the power and Soveriegnty of God, creating a loop with point one to close the loop.

So these are the things we agree on. Does that suffice?

Jesus shows up to a pool 4 children are drowning, he saves all four, then we agree.

I am plainly for the good guys, most mercy, most kind, most loving. If I can be more merciful then God then there is a problem.

If you can show me a better God of kindness love and compassion, you can run me over in any debate.

 

[glad4mercy]

Jesus shows up to a pool 4 children are drowning, he saves all four, then we agree.

What does that have to do with anything? We're not talking about children drowning, we are talking about unrepentant vs repentant sinners. We are not talking about four children drowning, we are talking about four sinners under the just wrath of God. He saves by grace through faith those who repent and believe. Those who do not believe abide under the wrath of God.

You cannot emphasize God's love at the expense of His Holiness and the justice of God. Love without justice and Holiness does not at all define the love of God. Therefore, the drowning children analogy does not apply, at least not to what I am saying. Because like I said, I believe God draws all men, and no one can come unless they are drawn, but God gives them a choice as to whether they come or not.