Pelagianism: The Boogie Man

[utilyan]

What does that have to do with anything? We're not talking about children drowning, we are talking about unrepentant vs repentant sinners. We are not talking about four children drowning, we are talking about four sinners under the just wrath of God. He saves by grace through faith those who repent and believe. Those who do not believe abide under the wrath of God.

You cannot emphasize God's love at the expense of His Holiness and the justice of God. Love without justice and Holiness does not at all define the love of God. Therefore, the drowning children analogy does not apply, at least not to what I am saying. Because like I said, I believe God draws all men, and no one can come unless they are drawn, but God gives them a choice as to whether they come or not.

Justice is a tool to bring things back to harmony. God is not sadist.

If your idea of Jesus would let children drown. Pathetic.

I would believe your worship of evil is an insult to God.

That's our difference. Evil believes POWER is a virtue. Good will back up kindness and love against all odds.


If the "GUN" that decided if you went to heaven or hell was in the Devil's hand rather then God's. Sure enough there would be plenty of cowards serving the devil. Of course he would call himself God too and claim everything he does was righteous.

I am not a coward.


Everything I fault you for is on the sake of mercy kindness. Satan only accuses and seeks the suffering of others.

 

[glad4mercy]

Justice is a tool to bring things back to harmony. God is not sadist.

If your idea of Jesus would let children drown. Pathetic.

I would believe your worship of evil is an insult to God.

Basically the gist of what I said is that God loves and draws all men but does not force people to love Him. Are you saying this would be evil or would make God a sadist?

That's our difference. Evil believes POWER is a virtue. Good will back up kindness and love against all odds.


If the "GUN" that decided if you went to heaven or hell was in the Devil's hand rather then God's. Sure enough there would be plenty of cowards serving the devil. Of course he would call himself God too and claim everything he does was righteous.

I am not a coward.


Everything I fault you for is on the sake of mercy kindness. Satan only accuses and seeks the suffering of others.

Basically what I said is that God loves and draws all men, but does not force them to come. How is this evil or sadistic?

 

[glad4mercy]

Justice is a tool to bring things back to harmony. God is not sadist.

If your idea of Jesus would let children drown. Pathetic.

I would believe your worship of evil is an insult to God.

That's our difference. Evil believes POWER is a virtue. Good will back up kindness and love against all odds.


If the "GUN" that decided if you went to heaven or hell was in the Devil's hand rather then God's. Sure enough there would be plenty of cowards serving the devil. Of course he would call himself God too and claim everything he does was righteous.

I am not a coward.


Everything I fault you for is on the sake of mercy kindness. Satan only accuses and seeks the suffering of others.

The only one accusing anyone is you. You accuse people and fail to back up your accusations. What did I say that you find fault with? When I quoted John 3:18 or when I referred to John 6:44, or was it when I agreed with John 6:40.

Look those passages up, and you will see that everything I said in the post you called evil is what Jesus taught. Maybe you should believe His Words and not call people who believe His Word "worshippers of evil" lest you may be blaspheming Him.

Refute what I said with Scripture. You haven't addressed anything I said, you have only built silly strawmen

If you don't reply, I will chalk it up as you being a troll

 

[Yeshua1]

Basically what I said is that God loves and draws all men, but does not force them to come. How is this evil or sadistic?

Where in the Bible does it state though that the Father loves all persons equally, or that God draws all to Jesus, as even in the times of Christ He did not do those things!

 

[Revmitchell]

Where in the Bible does it state though that the Father loves all persons equally, or that God draws all to Jesus, as even in the times of Christ He did not do those things!

John 12:32, John 3:16

 

[glad4mercy]

Where in the Bible does it state though that the Father loves all persons equally, or that God draws all to Jesus, as even in the times of Christ He did not do those things!

I said God draws all people. I did not say that God draws everyone at all times.

God drew me in 1988 after many years living as a hardened, God hating, reprobate sinner. The way I was, I could not come, because I was a slave to sin and love of illicit pleasure, but the goodness of God convicted, convinced and softened me to come

Many of the Jews in John 6 were not drawn because they may have been judicially hardened. But that does not mean they weren't drawn before then and it doesn't mean they weren't drawn later. Many of the Jews who first rejected Jesus came to trust Him later

 

[utilyan]

Basically what I said is that God loves and draws all men, but does not force them to come. How is this evil or sadistic?

Doesn't sound evil at all.

I don't see the problem answering my simple question.

Would Jesus let children drown?



If someone asks me a question like do you think Jesus is a kind person, I'm not going to get stupid over the question.

 

[glad4mercy]

Doesn't sound evil at all.

I don't see the problem answering my simple question.

Would Jesus let children drown?



If someone asks me a question like do you think Jesus is a kind person, I'm not going to get stupid over the question.

Would Jesus have jumped in and saved drowning children in His earthly ministry? Without a doubt. Does this question have any relevence to the discussion? Not that I can see. But let'[s go a little deeper...

Did Jesus let Lazarus die? Yes

Was Jesus unkind? No!

Does God let children drown? (He could stop it, you know). I guess if the answer was no, then CHILDREN WOULD NEVER DROWN.

Why does He allow it? We can't always answer why God allows certain things. We just need to trust that the Judge of the earth will do what is right. He knows more than we, and sometimes He brings good out of suffering. See the Joseph story in Genesis and the Crucifiction accounts in the Gospels.

But with children drowning, I would think that it is something that God allows for whatever reason, but does not directly cause it, of course.

. Would God let people get cancer? Yes. Would God let Joseph get sold into slavery by his brothers? Yes. Would God let all the firstborn of Egypt die? Yes. Would God allow Steven to be stoned to death? Yes. Would God allow 9-11? Yes. Did God cause all these things? Other than the firstborn of Egypt, no. Did God use secondary causes to accomplish a greater purpose? Yes. Is God unkind for letting all of these painful things happen? NO. Are some things far above our thoughts, and we need to trust God when bad things happen? Yes.


Now that I've answered, is there a point to your question?

 

[utilyan]

Would Jesus have jumped in and saved drowning children in His earthly ministry? Without a doubt. Does this question have any relevence to the discussion? Not that I can see. But let'[s go a little deeper...

Did Jesus let Lazarus die? Yes

Was Jesus unkind? No!

Does God let children drown? (He could stop it, you know). I guess if the answer was no, then CHILDREN WOULD NEVER DROWN.

Why does He allow it? We can't always answer why God allows certain things. We just need to trust that the Judge of the earth will do what is right. He knows more than we, and sometimes He brings good out of suffering. See the Joseph story in Genesis and the Crucifiction accounts in the Gospels.

But with children drowning, I would think that it is something that God allows for whatever reason, but does not directly cause it, of course.

. Would God let people get cancer? Yes. Would God let Joseph get sold into slavery by his brothers? Yes. Would God let all the firstborn of Egypt die? Yes. Would God allow Steven to be stoned to death? Yes. Would God allow 9-11? Yes. Did God cause all these things? Other than the firstborn of Egypt, no. Did God use secondary causes to accomplish a greater purpose? Yes. Is God unkind for letting all of these painful things happen? NO. Are some things far above our thoughts, and we need to trust God when bad things happen? Yes.


Now that I've answered, is there a point to your question?

Yes there is a point.

Not everyone would say Jesus would save them. Some would say he would let a couple drown to show the one's he saved how grateful they should be. Because they all "deserve" to drown.

 

[glad4mercy]

Yes there is a point.

Not everyone would say Jesus would save them. Some would say he would let a couple drown to show the one's he saved how grateful they should be. Because they all "deserve" to drown.

The analogy of drowning children does not fit the question. People who are lost are not drowning children. They are more like inmates on death row. And those who perish, perish because of their hard and unrepentant heart, not because God arbitrarily left them out.

I am not a Calvinist, (I would think my posts have made this abundantly clear) so I don't know why you keep repeating your caricature of Calvinism to me. And it is somewhat of a caricature, if you catch my drift.

 

[utilyan]

The analogy of drowning children does not fit the question. People who are lost are not drowning children. They are more like inmates on death row. And those who perish, perish because of their hard and unrepentant heart, not because God arbitrarily left them out.

I am not a Calvinist, (I would think my posts have made this abundantly clear) so I don't know why you keep repeating your caricature of Calvinism to me. And it is somewhat of a caricature, if you catch my drift.

Brother you are interrogating yourself.

You are taking a tiny tiny thing I said and cranking it up. Mountain meet Molehill.

Congratulations.

Its a good thing. It means you might actually have a conscience.


People who are lost are drowning Children. Those with hard hearts insist the death row theory.

You are drowning right now.


Glad when you sin its your fault right? not God's.

If we can go back in time to do the very worst sin you've done, you would do it again or no?

I'm a firm believer you would not do it. If we had a good look at you then, you were drowning in motivations of fear.


If you knew then what you know now I think things go differently.

The Glad4mercy of then is not inferior to the one here today, its the same one.


It is glad4mercy, right? not mad4mercy.

Your sense of Justice needs to take what God deserves into account first, A father doesn't take joy at the suffering of their children.

 

[glad4mercy]

Brother you are interrogating yourself.

You are taking a tiny tiny thing I said and cranking it up. Mountain meet Molehill.

Congratulations.

Its a good thing. It means you might actually have a conscience.


People who are lost are drowning Children. Those with hard hearts insist the death row theory.

You are drowning right now.


Glad when you sin its your fault right? not God's.

If we can go back in time to do the very worst sin you've done, you would do it again or no?

I'm a firm believer you would not do it. If we had a good look at you then, you were drowning in motivations of fear.


If you knew then what you know now I think things go differently.

The Glad4mercy of then is not inferior to the one here today, its the same one.


It is glad4mercy, right? not mad4mercy.

Your sense of Justice needs to take what God deserves into account first, A father doesn't take joy at the suffering of their children.

There was no Glad4mercy before I was saved. The old me died, and I became a new creation. So, no, I am not the same as I used to be

When I sin, yes, it's my fault.

People who reject God are not His children. As many as believed were given authority to become children of God.

The world does not know the Children of God, therefore they hate them

If the world were children of God, they would love the children of God.

If they do not love the children of God they do not love God. And if they do not love God, they are not His Children

I am not angry. Not in the least. Just zealous of truth

I want everyone to be saved.

Your arguments against me are strawmen, based on misunderstanding me

 

[utilyan]

There was no Glad4mercy before I was saved. The old me died, and I became a new creation. So, no, I am not the same as I used to be

When I sin, yes, it's my fault.

People who reject God are not His children. As many as believed were given authority to become children of God.

The world does not know the Children of God, therefore they hate them

If the world were children of God, they would love the children of God.

If they do not love the children of God they do not love God. And if they do not love God, they are not His Children

I am not angry. Not in the least. Just zealous of truth

I want everyone to be saved.

Your arguments against me are strawmen, based on misunderstanding me

You cannot forgive the guy you were. God did.

Romans 5

6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


WHILE you were drowning, WHILE you were still a sinner and unbeliever.


You think you are better then the "OLD ME"?

Now your just showing up puffed up and holier then thou.


I don't think you have anything over "old me" You think the price tag you put on yourself is greater the the price tag GOD put on "old me" the tag says Jesus Christ.

 

[glad4mercy]

You cannot forgive the guy you were. God did.

Romans 5

6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


WHILE you were drowning, WHILE you were still a sinner and unbeliever.


You think you are better then the "OLD ME"?

Now your just showing up puffed up and holier then thou.


I don't think you have anything over "old me" You think the price tag you put on yourself is greater the the price tag GOD put on "old me" the tag says Jesus Christ.

I never compared myself to you, so I don't know where "holier than thou" came from. Do you mean "holier than Who I used to be? Only because of what Jesus did, is doing, and will do.

 

[utilyan]

I never compared myself to you, so I don't know where "holier than thou" came from. Do you mean "holier than Who I used to be? Only because of what Jesus did, is doing, and will do.

I'm pointing out that those who are lost and in need of repentance are God's priority. While you were a sinner Jesus died for you.

Luke 15

3So He told them this parable, saying, 4“What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5“When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6“And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7“I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Prior to 1988, you were a child of God, he loved you then just as much. You did not earn any of it, he gave his son for you, you were his highest priority.

 

[glad4mercy]

I'm pointing out that those who are lost and in need of repentance are God's priority. While you were a sinner Jesus died for you.

Luke 15

3So He told them this parable, saying, 4“What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5“When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6“And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7“I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Prior to 1988, you were a child of God, he loved you then just as much. You did not earn any of it, he gave his son for you, you were his highest priority.

While I was a sinner, Christ died for me, God loved me, God gave His Son for me, and this is true of all sinners...but nothing I said contradicts this.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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[glad4mercy]

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That's good. It ran it's course days ago.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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