Penal Substitution Atonement (explain and discuss)

[DaveXR650]

What does this punishment of sins (on the wicked ... the punishment we escaped but Jesus suffered) accomplish?

It could be out of a sense of justice, if that for instance is part of God's nature.
This does not mean that God has to punish sin because of an external requirement that he do so. But if it is part of his nature he would still do so and thus it could be said he had to in that sense, to be true to his nature. I believe Aquinas believed that it was within God's right to just forgive but scripture indicated that he did not do so therefore it was not childish to assume punishment would be rendered. One thing we know for certain is that while it is perfectly OK to look into if God does something, it is not OK to keep ridiculing Him should you discover that he does so.

The other idea is that at least two things are going on with God and our sin. One, is that he personally responds and reacts to this. That is discussed above. The other is that God is a judge of everything. It does not have to be so. But we have scripture enough to reveal that he takes an active role in what could be called cosmic justice. Therefore, to constantly raise objections to Christ taking responsibility for our sin if it turns out that he does so, is blasphemous and to keep ridiculing it day after day is probably the reason the Reformers considered it damnable error.

So, the punishment of sins on Christ accomplishes the above, for the umpteenth time. To disagree that Christ did that in that way or to suggest that it isn't stated properly is one thing. To keep denigrating the whole idea that God demands justice ends any reason for further discussion. We simply are of different faiths.

 

[JonC]

It could be out of a sense of justice, if that for instance is part of God's nature.
This does not mean that God has to punish sin because of an external requirement that he do so. But if it is part of his nature he would still do so and thus it could be said he had to in that sense, to be true to his nature. I believe Aquinas believed that it was within God's right to just forgive but scripture indicated that he did not do so therefore it was not childish to assume punishment would be rendered. One thing we know for certain is that while it is perfectly OK to look into if God does something, it is not OK to keep ridiculing Him should you discover that he does so.

The other idea is that at least two things are going on with God and our sin. One, is that he personally responds and reacts to this. That is discussed above. The other is that God is a judge of everything. It does not have to be so. But we have scripture enough to reveal that he takes an active role in what could be called cosmic justice. Therefore, to constantly raise objections to Christ taking responsibility for our sin if it turns out that he does so, is blasphemous and to keep ridiculing it day after day is probably the reason the Reformers considered it damnable error.

So, the punishment of sins on Christ accomplishes the above, for the umpteenth time. To disagree that Christ did that in that way or to suggest that it isn't stated properly is one thing. To keep denigrating the whole idea that God demands justice ends any reason for further discussion. We simply are of different faiths.

I agree that punishment is out of a sence of justice. I am not sure that I would include "could" when speaking of punishment against the wicked.

Now...do not put words in my mouth (or on my posts) in order to cover you ending the discussion. That is wrong.

I absolutely agree that God demands justice. I agree that God's justice requires the wicked be punished. I would add that God will have justice.

But you have told me "why" God punishes (God is just), not its purpose.

Per your view Jesus experienced this punishment (at least in some form). The wicked will suffer this punishment.

I get that God's holiness demands that the wicked be punished. But since we escape this punishment, and you attribute it to God punishing Jesus in our stead, I think we have to identify the actual purpose of the punishment.


God punished Jesus for our wicked deeds. God will punish the wicked.


What is the reason justice requires punishment?

 

[DaveXR650]

What is the reason justice requires punishment?

If you can't answer that yourself I can't help you. It's in order for justice to be fulfilled. Why did Jesus have to bare our sins. See, you keep this endless circular logic going with yourself where you claim this is not necessary, ban any rebuttle, go back then and claim that yes, you agree with the idea of justice, and then immediately ask why justice requires punishment. I say for the sake of justice. And then we go again.

God punished Jesus for our wicked deeds. God will punish the wicked.

Once again, you have answered your own question. If we really did wicked deed that would make us wicked. Your next sentence answers what then must happen if God is truly just. God can be a just judge and not punish those wicked who have repented because of his own devised plan of atonement and ransom.

And don't, please don't, go back into the next step, which will be to say we aren't wicked because we are righteous because we have repented. We must repent, and we can be given a new nature and we can become a member of Christ's body - but we are basing that on an initial pardon that Christ obtained for us which was not obtained for the wicked who indeed will be punished as your yourself have said.

"And such were some of you" but now you are washed and now you are clean.

 

[JonC]

If you can't answer that yourself I can't help you. It's in order for justice to be fulfilled. Why did Jesus have to bare our sins. See, you keep this endless circular logic going with yourself where you claim this is not necessary, ban any rebuttle, go back then and claim that yes, you agree with the idea of justice, and then immediately ask why justice requires punishment. I say for the sake of justice. And then we go again.


Once again, you have answered your own question. If we really did wicked deed that would make us wicked. Your next sentence answers what then must happen if God is truly just. God can be a just judge and not punish those wicked who have repented because of his own devised plan of atonement and ransom.

And don't, please don't, go back into the next step, which will be to say we aren't wicked because we are righteous because we have repented. We must repent, and we can be given a new nature and we can become a member of Christ's body - but we are basing that on an initial pardon that Christ obtained for us which was not obtained for the wicked who indeed will be punished as your yourself have said.

"And such were some of you" but now you are washed and now you are clean.

Oh...I can.

God punishes the wicked because justice is restoring to a just state (a state that is holy, on par with God's righteousness).

Under the law this is why the sinner was punished (cast out, purifying Israel). That was why I suggested you read Deuteronomy. Punishment was not about the one punished but about Israel. Sin was not a debt to God but about being short of His glory.

 

[DaveXR650]

God punishes the wicked because justice is restoring to a just state (a state that is holy, on par with God's righteousness).

That completely falls short of any concept of justice because PSA advocates base the whole foundation on the fact that wickedness and sin must be punished according to what we understand by the law and by God's view of sin. What you are doing here for everyone to see is basically declaring that those of us who are good guys are not and never were, part of the ones who were guilty. In that way you circumvent any idea of punishment due us, because we are the good guys, not "the wicked". That is not Christianity, that is all the religion of the world. Good guys are good, and bad guys should be punished. Christianity says we were bad guys too, especially as you keep bringing up - in that we all fall far short of God's glory. You have nothing that addresses that and thus keep circling like you are doing now to avoid the big issue, what about our sin.

Sin was not a debt to God but about being short of His glory.

Sin can be looked at as a debt to God. It can be seen as an offense to God personally. And it can be seen as a violation of God's sense of justice. The first two are completely up to God as whether he overlooks, gratuitously forgives, or exacts some type of punishment or discipline. The third though God does not look over permanently or gratuitously forgive, not because he is personally desiring to be harsh but because he is a just and perfect judge. All this is revealed in scripture.

You have no right to throw all this out because it is revealed scripture. God's reaction to sin is wrath. The chosen Jewish people have their whole revealed to them system based upon God given law therefore this withering criticism of forensic explanations of atonement are completely ridiculous. No complete discussion of God's justice can occur without reference to forensic aspects. The whole sacrificial system, although vague to us, seemed clear enough the way it was interpreted in the New Testament, as well as the priestly and intercessory actions of Christ in Hebrews.

 

[JonC]

That completely falls short of any concept of justice

No. That is justice itself. Justice is righteousness. "Righteousness" is a synonym for "justice". In fact, both the Hebrew (צְדָקָה) and Greek (δικαιοσύνη) word for justice is "righteousness".

The problem with your version of "forensic justice" it that your version is foreign to the Bible. By reading into Scripture your own ideas the sacrificial system appears to you vague. But in reality it is not vague at all. It just does not fit into your philosophy of justice.

 

[DaveXR650]

No. That is justice itself. Justice is righteousness. "Righteousness" is a synonym for "justice". In fact, both the Hebrew (צְדָקָה) and Greek (δικαιοσύνη) word for justice is "righteousness".

Yes, as if he "administered the justice of the Lord". Justice will be righteous and is exhibiting the righteousness of the Lord, but it can and is used to show that the force of God's righteousness is worked against unrighteousness. This is another attempt to obscure what is really being discussed here.

Forensic justice is found throughout the Bible and in fact the Jewish people are the people of the law. The modern forensic justice motifs that you want to pretend can be ignored in reality are closely tied to the Old Testament roots and simply cannot be ignored.

But in reality it is not vague at all.

It's the stuff you bring in to this where for example the blood represents life and the death is secondary. The vagueness I'm talking about involves a concession to the confusion you guys have. The sacrificial system looks perfectly clear to me personally, and always did. And I think it does to most Baptists unless they read Socinian literature. I would just ask that you take some position and stick to it.

 

[JonC]

Forensic justice is found throughout the Bible and in fact the Jewish people are the people of the law.

The problem is you view forensic elements of justice as justice itself (justice being the punishment of wrong actions, etc.). That is why you have been unable to grasp biblical justice, even though it is literally the biblical test you set aside for what you believe that text teaches.

I do not know why you being up Socinian literature. Your view is very much Socinian (reliance on human system, focus on moral influences). We both are trinitarians. Between the two of us, you would be the Socinian.

I did not bring the blood of Christ into the atonement. The atonement IS Christ and His blood shed for us. I did not have to bring it in.

I did not invent the idea that the blood represents life either. It is important.

What I am saying is when viewing the sacrificial system you stop at the killing of the animal outside the Temple and fit that into your theory. But the important part in the OT sacrifice was not the killing of the animal but obedience and the symbolism of the blood applied cleanse and purify.

Anyway, justice is righteousness. The idea that justice demands sins be punished is Socinian. It is based on the legal humanism. Punishment is different in the Bible.

 

[JonC]

A good illustration, @DaveXR650 , would be a garden where God dwells with man. Because man falls short of God's glory (is unrighteous) man is expelled (punished).

But God is going to make a new heaven and a new earth and dwell with man.

Justice is that righteousness that will occur. Everything unrighteous is cast out (punished). All that will exist is righteous. This is what justice accomplishes.

I understand you reject the Hebrew view of justice in favor of a Socinian idea of moralistic law. But justice is not legal humanism. So you will always have to bypass God's words for what you believed is taught in a condensed answer concise form (you will always have to lean on your understanding when it comes to the cross).

Righteousness is simply greater than one's actions. It is greater than morals. And sin (unrighteousness) is so much more significant a problem than you are allowing.

 

[JonC]

We simply are of different faiths.

Those of my faith go back a long time. This includes Calvinists, Baptists, Methodists, etc. It is the one true faith in the One True Lord. Among us there are differences of opinion but we are united in Christ. It is a long history.

I had hoped we were of the same faith but simply holding different understandings of how salvation was accomplished.

It is impossible for you to understand the topic of this thread. These things are only for those of the faith, those of us who believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ. This topic is one Christians who are of the same faith disagree over - but as family.

Owen, Knox, Spurgeon, Wesley, Moody, Tozer, Sproul, Keller, Falwell, Graham....the voices that have testified to my faith and continue to do so in their writings are many. While holding different understandings these men were united in the faith.

You read some of their writings but are missing the main point - the gospel of Jesus Christ. There is One Way, One Truth, One Life. That is our faith (the faith I hold, the faith of Owen, Sproul, Wesley, Spurgeon...the faith of those of us who are being saved).

Your confession here makes a lot of your posts make sense. You seem to have been exposed to the gospel.

What is keeping you from the faith?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

A good illustration, @DaveXR650 , would be a garden where God dwells with man. Because man falls short of God's glory (is unrighteous) man is expelled (punished).

But God is going to make a new heaven and a new earth and dwell with man.

Justice is that righteousness that will occur. Everything unrighteous is cast out (punished). All that will exist is righteous. This is what justice accomplishes.

Your problem is that what you describe is not justice on any level, certainly not Biblical justice. If everything unrighteous is cast out, then the new heavens and new earth will be empty (Rev. 21:27 etc.). Also, Jesus Christ does not seem to have any part in your scheme. In it God will, I suppose, ignore people's sins and make them righteous so that they can enter to heaven. But if He is going to do that (He isn't), then it would have saved a lot of time for Him simply to forgive Adam and Eve, and make the holy again. But God's justice does not allow that. The wicked will be punished (e.g. 2 Chron. 7:19-22).
A way has to be found for God's justice to coincide with His mercy, and in the Lord Jesus, this has happened. 'Mercy and truth have met together. righteousness and peace have kissed.' God Himself, in the Person of the Christ, has taken upon Himself the satisfaction of His own justice. Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. God can justify the ungodly without sacrificing His justice. Now (and only now - John 16:7) God can progressively sanctify His people and fit them for heaven.
But you are right that those of your faith go back a long way. They are just not the people that you liken yourself to in your post.

 

[JonC]

Your problem is that what you describe is not justice on any level, certainly not Biblical justice. If everything unrighteous is cast out, then the new heavens and new earth will be empty...

You are wrong. Justice is the righteousness of God. You have chosen a secular philosophy of justice. Why? What I have described is not only justice in accordance with the Hebrew concept of justice but it is also justice in accordance to Scripture.

If everything that is unrighteous is cast out??? It will be. There is no "if" about it.

Justice IS righteousness.

Mercy and truth have met together, righteousness and peace have kissed. This is in Christ.

All that is unrighteous will be cast out. There will be no unrighteousness. Your hope that you can exist with God in your unrighteousness based on your debt being paid is foolish given all of the passages that state otherwise.

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived.

 

[JonC]

Biblical justice is a concept defined by the righteousness of God ("justice" and "righteousness" being synonymous).

God will judge the world. God will create a new heavens and a new Earth. NOTHIING that is unrighteous will enter the kingdom of God.

At Judgment God will cast out the unrighteous, even if the unrighteous consider their debt paid.

The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. Period.

 

[DaveXR650]

Wow. This thread miraculously opened up again!

It is impossible for you to understand the topic of this thread. These things are only for those of the faith, those of us who believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ. This topic is one Christians who are of the same faith disagree over - but as family.

Owen, Knox, Spurgeon, Wesley, Moody, Tozer, Sproul, Keller, Falwell, Graham....the voices that have testified to my faith and continue to do so in their writings are many. While holding different understandings these men were united in the faith.

You read some of their writings but are missing the main point - the gospel of Jesus Christ. There is One Way, One Truth, One Life. That is our faith (the faith I hold, the faith of Owen, Sproul, Wesley, Spurgeon...the faith of those of us who are being saved).

This is utterly amazing considering what you have been saying about Calvinism in general.

 

[DaveXR650]

Biblical justice is a concept defined by the righteousness of God ("justice" and "righteousness" being synonymous).

Yes. That is what I was trying to explain to you. But the difference in meaning is that one is the active part of the quality. Like you said below:

God will judge the world. God will create a new heavens and a new Earth. NOTHIING that is unrighteous will enter the kingdom of God.

That is correct. And, if you don't throw out tons of scripture, this is done by the atonement.

At Judgment God will cast out the unrighteous, even if the unrighteous consider their debt paid.

The last statement is where you error. Although it is correct in that it doesn't matter what we think about it, it does matter if God imputed our sin to Christ and imputed Christ's righteousness to those who are saved. It matters decisively and totally, with no one to object. All judgement is committed to Christ who was in agreement with doing this, and the only one who can truly accuse is God the Father who made all this to be. Stop trying to destroy the gospel believed by all the people you mentioned above, whether Calvinist or not. You are very confused and need to spend some time thinking these things over rather than opening, closing and reopening threads so only you can respond.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Justice is the righteousness of God. You have chosen a secular philosophy of justice.

One of us has chosen a non-Christian philosophy of justice, but I think you'll find it's you. But certainly God is both just and righteous.

Why? What I have described is not only justice in accordance with the Hebrew concept of justice but it is also justice in accordance to Scripture.

If everything that is unrighteous is cast out??? It will be. There is no "if" about it.

Well, if you prefer, when everything unrighteous is cast out, then the new heavens and new earth will be empty. Your problem seems to be that you just seem to have left out the bit about God justifying the ungodly.

Justice IS righteousness.

Mercy and truth have met together, righteousness and peace have kissed. This is in Christ.

Of course it's in Christ. That is what I wrote. Here you are again. Be a good fellow and read it this time, please.
A way has to be found for God's justice to coincide with His mercy, and in the Lord Jesus, this has happened. 'Mercy and truth have met together. righteousness and peace have kissed.' God Himself, in the Person of the Christ, has taken upon Himself the satisfaction of His own justice. Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. God can justify the ungodly without sacrificing His justice. Now (and only now - John 16:7) God can progressively sanctify His people and fit them for heaven.

All that is unrighteous will be cast out. There will be no unrighteousness. Your hope that you can exist with God in your unrighteousness based on your debt being paid is foolish given all of the passages that state otherwise.

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived.

You really don't read a word I write, do you? You actually have no idea about the doctrine of Penal Substitution (as opposed to your own theory) and not a Scooby-Doo about what I believe.

However, I'm very interested about this thread being opened again. 27 hours ago, @Salty gave us a six-hour warning, but this dragged on a bit so that you could make the final post and then immediately close it yourself. Then, I suppose you thought of something else you wanted to say and either opened it yourself or ordered @Salty to do so. What was the point of @Salty giving the six-hour warning? You have made a fool out of him. You seem to be a law unto yourself on this board. Do the other mods just dance on your attendance?

 

[JonC]

This is utterly amazing considering what you have been saying about Calvinism in general.

Why? I do not believe Calvinism us correct. I do not believe Methodist theology is correct. I do not believe Pentecostal, Catholic, or CoC theology is correct.

But we are not saved through out theology. We are saved through faith, and this faith in Christ.

I hold this faith. They held this faith. You say you do not. That is between you and God.

 

[JonC]

Yes. That is what I was trying to explain to you. But the difference in meaning is that one is the active part of the quality. Like you said below:

That is correct. And, if you don't throw out tons of scripture, this is done by the atonement.

The last statement is where you error. Although it is correct in that it doesn't matter what we think about it, it does matter if God imputed our sin to Christ and imputed Christ's righteousness to those who are saved. It matters decisively and totally, with no one to object. All judgement is committed to Christ who was in agreement with doing this, and the only one who can truly accuse is God the Father who made all this to be. Stop trying to destroy the gospel believed by all the people you mentioned above, whether Calvinist or not. You are very confused and need to spend some time thinking these things over rather than opening, closing and reopening threads so only you can respond.

Oh...I agree this is done by the Atonement. We have already discussed this. I believe that Christ Himself is the Propitiation for our sins, that by His blood we are cleansed of all unrighteousness. We who have the faith you claimed to reject are crucified with Christ and no longer live - it is Christ who lives in us.

I am not confused at all about my belief. You simply do not understand my belief (the confusion is yours). That you say you hold a different faith - a faith that is not solely in Christ - also means you cannot understand.

 

[JonC]

One of us has chosen a non-Christian philosophy of justice, but I think you'll find it's you. But certainly God is both just and righteous.

Well, if you prefer, when everything unrighteous is cast out, then the new heavens and new earth will be empty.

You have a non-Christian philosophy.

When God creates a new heavens and Earth and everything unrighteous has been cast out, God's kingdom will not be empty. Jesus will be there. The Apostles will be there. I will be there with all who have believed in Christ.

If you remain unrighteous then you will not be there. You will have been cast out.

The unrighteous will NOT inherit the kingdom of God. Period.

Then, I suppose

That right there is your problem.

@Salty gave us a six-hour warning, ... @Salty to do so. What was the point of @Salty giving the six-hour warning? You have made a fool out of him.

Rather than condemning @Salty you should pay more attention to his warning. He said "no sooner than".

I did not close the thread because I knew you would report it and say "he just wanted the last word". Now you condemn me for not closing it??? And you condemn @Salty for not abiding by your schedule.

Have you ever considered there may be a reason @Salty posted the thread will be closed "no earlier than" rather than providing a specific time the thread will be closed?

 

[37818]

No. We have Scripture for that.

But then clearly cite it! You haven't.