What are you talking about? God's wrath will be poured out on the wicked on the Day of Judgment. What are you talking about wrath "going" somewhere?
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Penal Substitution.
- Thread starter 37818
- Start date
- Status
A transfer means something being removed from one place and put somewhere else.
God laid our iniquitiy on Christ. He shared our infirmity. He became a curse for us. The Just for the unjust.
But Scripture is clear that the wicked are accountable for their own sins, that sins cannot be transfered from one to another, and that punishing the just to acquit the unjust is an abomination to God.
I absolutely agree with those passages. They are essential to understanding the Cross.[/QUOTE]
I suppose it is possible that you think you agree with them, but you don't.
OK. Here we go for the seventh time.
'Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man.'
If Aaron puts the sins of the people (in figure) on the head of the goat, they are no longer on the people. If I put a dollar in your hand, I don't have it any more; it has gone from me to you.
'The chastisement for our peace was upon Him., and by His stripes [wounds] we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone into his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.'
According to the NKJV margin, the term 'has laid on Him' is literally translated as 'Caused to land on Him.' If the Lord has caused our sins to land upon Christ, they are no longer landed upon us QED. Otherwise we are not healed by His stripes and the chastisement that was upon Him was not for our peace. QED again.
'Who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we having died to sins, might live for righteousness - by whose stripes you were healed.'.
If Christ has borne our sins it follows that we no longer bear them. If I bear someone's burden, it inevitably means that he does not bear it himself, otherwise I am not bearing it
I understand that your philosophy does not allow you to accept the plain truth of these verses, but we have to set aside prejudice and humanistic philosophy and follow the Scripture.
Then you believe a non sequitur as I have pointed out above. I find it hard to believe that any sensible person could believe that. 1 Corinthians 15:17. 'If Christ is not raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.' But if Christ is raised, we are not still in our sins, praise God!. QED again. The resurrection is the vindication of Christ; the evidence that God is satisfied with the propitiation that He has made. .Our sins have been transferred to Christ and He has paid the penalty for them in full.
Is that so? Good.
No. You are missing my point.
I agree with what the passage states. I disagree with your interpretation.
There are several reasons we disagree.
1. I do not believe that an animal can bear man's sins.
2. Scripture tells us sins cannot be transferred.
3. Scripture tells us that it was in God's forebearance that He passed over the sins committed during OT times.
4. Scripture tells us that God is not appeased by animal sacrifices but instead desires obedience.
Instead I believe that the OT sacrifice system was bearing witness of the New Covenant which would be written in Christ's blood.
1. God justifies the ungodly (Romans 5:6).
2. The Scripture is very clear that God transfers the sins of His people to Christ (see my post above).
3. Here I think I can do no better than to paste a meaty part of my post #43 which you do not seem to have answered:
And so we read, 'And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.' And again, 'Who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness - by whose stripes you were healed.' How could the Lord Jesus bear our sins in His own body unless they were transferred to Him?
So why is this allowable? Partly because of two offices held by the Lord Jesus.
In the Scriptures we have the concept of the mediator, one who might fill up the gap between the outraged holiness of God and rebellious man (Isaiah 59:2). Job complained, “For He is not a man, as I am, that I should answer Him, and that we should go to court together. Nor is there any mediator between us who may lay his hand on us both.” But mediation requires a satisfaction to be made to the offended party. We see this is the book of Philemon. Here we have an offended party, Philemon, whose servant has run away from him, perhaps stealing some goods as he went; an offending party, Onesimus, and Paul who is attempting to mediate between them. Onesimus needs to return to his master, but fears the sanctions that may be imposed upon him if he does so. Paul takes these sanctions upon himself: ‘But if he has wronged you or owes anything, put that on my account. I, Paul, am writing with my own hand. I will repay…..’ (Philemon 18-19). Whatever is wanting to propitiate Philemon’s anger against his servant and to effect reconciliation, Paul the mediator willingly agrees to provide. He does not say, "I can't do that; God does not allow punishment to be transferred from the unrighteous to the righteous. In the same way, the Lord Jesus has become a Mediator between men and God (1 Timothy 2:5).
In 2 Corinthians 5:19, we learn that God does not impute trespasses against His people; in Christ; He has reconciled the world [believing Jew and Gentile alike] to Himself. How has He done this? Through the Mediator Jesus Christ. ‘For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us….’ (v.21). The Lord Jesus has taken our sins upon Himself and made satisfaction to God for them. Therefore the message of reconciliation can be preached to all.
A similar concept is that of a surety. This is someone who guarantees the debts of a friend and must pay them in full if the friend defaults. There are several warnings in the Book of Proverbs against becoming a surety (Proverbs 6:1-5; 11:15; 17:18), since one is making the debts of one’s friend effectively one’s own, yet we read in Hebrews 7:22, ‘By so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.’
Christ is specifically designated in Scripture as ‘the last Adam’ (1 Corinthians 15:45) and we are told that the first Adam was a ‘type [or ‘figure’] of Him who was to come’ (Romans 5:14). ‘For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive’ (1 Corinthians 15:22). All those in Adam perish in their sins; all those in Christ are united to Him in His perfect righteousness.
Who are those ‘in Christ’? Those He came to save; those who were given to Him by the Father before time began. “Christ came not to strangers but to ‘brethren (Hebrews 2:11-13). He came here not to procure a people for Himself, but to secure a people already His” (A.W. Pink). There are many supporting texts for this, e.g. Matthew 1:21; John 6:39; 10:27-29; 17:2, 6; Ephesians 1:4. Christ is united federally to His people. They are ‘chosen in Christ’ (Ephesians 1:4), ‘Created in Christ’ (Ephesians 2:10); ‘circumcised in Him’ (Colossians 2:11) and ‘made the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21). But as Surety, the Lord Jesus must also pay the debt of His people, and if they are to be freed from their debt, He must pay the very last penny (Matthew 5:26).
Neither the concept of mediator nor that of surety is repudiated in Scripture. Therefore it is legitimate for our Lord to suffer and die for guilty sinners. 'For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.'
Last edited:
Yes, God justifies sinners. I agree.
Look, where we disagree has absolutely nothing to do with Scripture (with the text of Scripture).
For most of my life I affirmed Penal Substitution Theory. For a large part of this time I was a Calvinist.
Where we disagree is in the presuppositions that you hold which influences how you interpret Scripture
You hold to a Reformed tradition. I no longer do.
If you want an honest discussion then you will have to look at the reasons you interpret Scripture as you do - your presuppositions. I will have to do the same.
But if you want to be honest you will have to stop the charge that those who disagree with you do not believe the Bible. That isn't it at all.
unprofitable
Active Member
Are you saying that the Father transferring our sins to Christ or his becoming a curse for us had no effect on him before the Father? If that is true, there was no reason for the Father to forsake the Son and turn his back on him. His human nature shared our infirmity from the beginning yet he was without sin. His rebuke of satan speaking by Peter and his trial/temptation by satan after returning from the wilderness is evidence.
You say that the righteous will not suffer for the wicked but then say the just for the unjust. The just becoming a curse. The just one bearing our sins. Why then would the Father hold him unaccountable? The Father always does judgment and justice and is no respecter of persons.
Since Christ did not take the sins of the whole world, the wicked will bear their own sins. They have no substitute that is typed by the animal sacrifices. They have no intercessor/paraclete. They have no one to say, I paid for their sins.
Now you are being silly and bearing false witness against me. I have said repeatedly that Leviticus 16 is a type or figure of Christ's propitiation on our behalf. Of course an animal cannot bear man's sins; of course the blood of bulls and goats can never take away sins. But the animal sacrifices, as a foreshadowing of Christ's sacrifice of Himself (Hebrews passim) enabled God to 'pass over the sins that were previously committed' (Romans 3:25) until the one perfect, acceptable sacrifice would be made by the Lord Jesus Christ. It was indeed in His forbearance that He passed over those sins but He could only do so because of the future self-offering of Christ.
Scripture tells us that sins can be transferred. See my post above.
Last edited:
You have repeatedly charged me with not believing the Bible. Stop being a hypocrite.
No, of course not. Christ bearing our sins, becoming obedient even to death on the cross pleased God. And God gave Him a name above every name.
I have charged you with believing that God punished the Righteous (or our sins laid on the Righteous) to acquit the guilty (which is a denial of a couple of passages).
But my charge is less what you deny and more what you add to Scripture.
So what if I'm a hypocrite? If both of us are wrong that does not excuse your wrongness.
So that makes it alright, does it?
????
Yes, God's wrath will be poured out on ungodly, wicked sinners at Judgment.
Sure it does. What I object to is not your interpretation but your additions to God's Word. Take away those additions and we'd mostly agree.
Uh....no.
Man does NOT enable God to do anything. You are elevating man to an unwarranted position.
Animals cannot bear man's sins.
So does Christ justify the ungodly?
Uh....no.
It seems to me that it was God who inaugurated the OT sacrificial system.
Does Christ justify the ungodly?
I have studied Scripture for decades. I earned a Bachelor's degree in the Christian religion and a Master's degree in Theology.
From my understanding you have an extensive education in Christian doctrine (I do not know the exact extent, but you are not uneducated).
I do not want to appear impatient, but you are asking questions when you already know the answer.
God is just AND the justifier of sinners. We are justified by faith.
Why not just get the the meat of our disagreement?
Do you believe God must punish sins even if this is not punishing the person who actually committed the sin?
Well what I object to is not so much your additions as your faulty interpretations. Is that OK?
You have BTW, accused me of paganism on this thread. Just saying.
- Status