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Featured Penal Substitution.

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by 37818, Jun 4, 2022.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    God did inaugurate the OT sacrificial system. But you are not talking about the Hebrew religion. You are speaking about the pagan ANE practices from which God called His people (transferring sins to animals, appeasing God's by animal sacrifices, etc).
     
    #121 JonC, Jun 8, 2022
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That is OK. I understand you believe I misinterpret Scripture and that is a fair accusation.

    I am not accusing you of paganism (I believe you are a Christian), but you have adopted a view that equates the OT sacrifice system to ANE pagan thought.
     
    #122 JonC, Jun 8, 2022
  3. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    That was what I asked you. You seem to be tying yourself up in knots. I am trying to find out what you believe. You have said that you have abandoned the beliefs you were taught at college. I think it's legitimate to try and find out what you have retained.
     
    #123 Martin Marprelate, Jun 8, 2022
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You misunderstood.

    I abandoned Penal Substitution Theory.

    I held Penal Substitution Theory long before college, and even in seminary (where we learned of other theories) I held the view (it was a conservative Baptist seminary so reading of other views of the Atonement was more of a Christian history issue rather than a theological one....Penal Substitution Theory was never questioned).

    But yes, God is just and the justifier of sinners.

    Do you believe that Jesus physically rose from the dead?
     
    #124 JonC, Jun 8, 2022
  5. unprofitable

    unprofitable Active Member

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    No, the doctrine of transfer of sins and animal sacrifices is talking about the old covenant being the fore runner of the New covenant. It taught the righteousness of Christ and his kingdom when spiritually discerned. The spiritual seedline/remnant saw this and could therefore prophesy of the New covenant, by the spirit of Christ in them. Luke 3:23-38.

    The old covenant was righteous in its context and purpose.

    2 Cor 3:7. But if the ministration of death, written and engraved in stones was GLORIOUS, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance, which glory was to be done away with.
    3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
    3:9. For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
    3:10 For even that which is made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
    3:11 For if that which is done away with (transferring sins to animals, appeasing God by animal sacrifices that represented in types and shadows the righteous work of Christ) WAS GLORIOUS much more that which remaineth is glorious.

    When David sinned and brought the wrath of God upon Israel, he bought Ornan's threshing floor, built and altar and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings and called upon the name of the Lord. This appeased the wrath of God. Who do you think the burnt offerings and peace offering represented?

    It was the perverting of what the sacrifices meant, by the influence of the nations, that the Lord was calling Israel out from.

    The old covenant has been fulfulled and done away with. What is meant has not been.
     
    #125 unprofitable, Jun 8, 2022
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  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    There are no passages that present an animal as bearing man's sins.

    The Old Covenant is fulfilled in Christ. The Law and the prophets testified to the New Covenant. I think we agree on that, anyway.
     
    #126 JonC, Jun 8, 2022
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Well.....I guess that's one way to shut down a Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement thread. Just ask why God has to punish sinful actions rather than punishing the one who committed the transgressions.

    Works every time.... unfortunately.

    Ezekiel 18:20
    The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
     
    #127 JonC, Jun 8, 2022
  8. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I don't see this as something to be proud of. Clark Pinnock abandoned Calvinism and ended up as an Open Theist. Even more sad is the case of A,B. (Alexander) Bruce who was Professor of theology at the Free Church College in Glasgow, Scotland in the 19th Century. He abandoned one belief after another and when he died, a friend said of him, "Sandy Bruce died without a thread of Christian assurance." Once the theological anchor starts to drift, there is a huge danger of ending up on the rocks.
    How is God just and the justifier of sinners? Which sinners?.
    Oh dear! Is this the ninth or tenth time?
    'Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man.'
    Now we know that this passage is typological, but nonetheless it presents an animal bearing the sins of the people.
    Yes, we know these things, and it is precisely my point. but we do not therefore abolish the O.T.
     
    #128 Martin Marprelate, Jun 9, 2022
  9. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    No. You are talking about ANE Paganism; I am talking about the Bible and its teaching.
     
    #129 Martin Marprelate, Jun 9, 2022
  10. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    What are you trying to prove with this verse?
    It will be helpful if you will address my posts #43 and #105 concerning Christ's roles as Mediator and Surety.
     
    #130 Martin Marprelate, Jun 9, 2022
  11. 5 point Gillinist

    5 point Gillinist Active Member

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    Wrong - the wrath was suffered on the cross, which was why Christ said "it is finished!" If He went to hell afterward then His sacrifice would have been insufficient due to having lied. Aside from the fact that he also told the thief that he would be with Him in paradise that very day. If Christ atoned for our sin in hell then the cross is pointless.
     
    #131 5 point Gillinist, Jun 9, 2022
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    • Winner Winner x 1
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That is a denial of what Christ finished on the cross. And had no Biblical basis.
     
    #132 37818, Jun 9, 2022
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  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I do not understand your assumption here. "Proud of"???

    God led me away from Calvinism. That is not something to be proud of, or ashamed of. It is a simple fact, nothing to do with me. I liked being a Calvinist.

    I had preached a sermon on the cross. The sermon was well reviewed (you would have liked it, I suspect).

    The next morning I awoke with the conviction that I had preached an understanding of the cross rather than Scripture.

    I purchased two white boards and hung them in my study. On them I wrote out every passage I could think of that directly taught Penal Substitution.

    Then I erased the passages that did not actually present Penal Substitution. There were no passages left.

    So I knew Penal Substitution Theory was not in the text of Scripture and could not stand the test of comparing it to what is written in God's Word.

    The best we can do is compare Penal Substitution Theory, as what we believe is taught by Scripture, with what we believe the Bible teaches. So it fails the criteria God has instructed us to use for doctrine.

    But is Penal Substitution Theory contrary to Scripture? The answer is yes, in two ways.

    First, Penal Substitution theorists have to deny some passages that would contradict their theory (e.g., it being an abomination to punish the Righteous, to acquit the wicked, sins not being transferred to others, etc.).

    Second, Penal Substitution theorists miss out on what Scripture is actually teaching (what is actually written). They believe a myth over the truth of God's Word.
     
    #133 JonC, Jun 9, 2022
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I am not trying to prove anything.

    As I posted before, our conversations on this topic over the past decade has helped at least three people move from Penal Substitution Theory to a more biblical understanding of the cross. That is not many people, but it is at least a few.

    I post the verses for others, not to change your mind. You are indoctrinated and steeped in your traditions. I was as well. And then I would not have been able to change my mind. It took God to change my mind.

    So I post this passage here for others to examine along side your posts.

    Ezekiel 18:20
    The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
     
    #134 JonC, Jun 9, 2022
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I am not the one who believes God is appeased by the blood of bulls, or that animals can bear man's sin.
     
    #135 JonC, Jun 9, 2022
  16. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Nor am I, as you know very well. If you don't understand typology, just ask and I'll explain it to you.
     
    #136 Martin Marprelate, Jun 9, 2022
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I am glad to see you do not believe the OT sins were transfered to animals.

    As I have said (and I take it you now agree), sins cannot be transferred.

     
    #137 JonC, Jun 9, 2022
  18. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I have seen this nonsense any number of times from you. Either you missed out large numbers of texts or you misinterpreted them dreadfully.
    'Penal Substitution Theory' is your own invention to enable you to escape the clear Biblical teaching of Penal Substitution proper. I will cover this in my next post.
     
    #138 Martin Marprelate, Jun 9, 2022
  19. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    :Rolleyes Try not to be silly. Learn about types and then come back with something sensible..
    And It will be helpful if you will address my posts #43 and #105 concerning Christ's roles as Mediator and Surety.
     
    #139 Martin Marprelate, Jun 9, 2022
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think we both know the cry "it's the clear teaching" the "plain teaching" and "the obvious meaning" is a fallacy most often put forward by those who cannot support their views.

    Either you believe Aaron transfered sins to animals or you do not. You cannot have it both ways.

    We all know what you are going to do. You will post passage after passage that does not state your position and then tell us what those passages "really mean".

    It does not work that way.

    The main question here is why you believe God must punish sinful actions even if not punishing the person who committed the action.
     
    #140 JonC, Jun 9, 2022
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