Penal Substitution

[Amy.G]

Tell me where he affirmed and approved of the extermination of children.

Jesus is God. Do you believe that? He is God in the OT and He is God in the NT. Jesus created everything. Of course He affirmed both the OT and the NT writings.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Jesus is God. Do you believe that? He is God in the OT and He is God in the NT. Jesus created everything. Of course He affirmed both the OT and the NT writings.

Again, tell me where he affirmed the extermination of children, either by his words or example.

 

[jbh28]

I don't know if I can state my view of scripture in a brief way. I have trouble applying the words "inerrant" and "infallible" to anyone but God.

Well, then it shouldn't be hard to use the word "infallible" to the Word of God.

I wouldn't say that the OT had errors or mistakes; I think "some" parts of the OT represent a primitive people's unclear but searching concept of God. For instance, I don't think God ordered the extermination of children; that is inconsistent with the teachings of Jesus.

What Bible passage are you referring to?

 

[gb93433]

Apparently you only see Jesus as the lamb of God, the meek and humble servant sent to save man from sin. That's how He came the first time. But the next time He comes, He will come as judge and ruler.

Maybe you should take a closer look at Him.

He also turned over the tax gatherers tables too. "Maybe you should take a closer look at Him."

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Well, then it shouldn't be hard to use the word "infallible" to the Word of God.
What Bible passage are you referring to?

Then by that reasoning you and others shouldn't object to the use of the word "infallible" as applied to the pope.

Infallible man? Infallible book? Neither -- infallible God only.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

He also turned over the tax gatherers tables too. "Maybe you should take a closer look at Him."

And he killed them, too, right?

Maybe you should take a closer look at Him.

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't know if I can state my view of scripture in a brief way. I have trouble applying the words "inerrant" and "infallible" to anyone but God. In the same way, I have trouble applying the word "Reverend" to a human being.

I wouldn't say that the OT had errors or mistakes; I think "some" parts of the OT represent a primitive people's unclear but searching concept of God. For instance, I don't think God ordered the extermination of children; that is inconsistent with the teachings of Jesus.
Also, I give more validity to the teachings of the OT prophets than to the priests because the prophets taught the true way for us to relate to God and how He relates to us -- not through ritual or outward things, but through and by the Spirit.

As for the New Testament, these kinds of "problems" don't exist, because we have the clear example of Jesus to go by -- Jesus, the perfect picture and example of the character and nature of God, and the author and finisher of our faith. You can't go wrong following the teachings and example of Jesus!

Michael,

All scripture is God breathed...even this one;

2Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

3Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

This was commanded by the God of jn 3:16...as was the flood that destroyed all but 8 souls......if you do not believe it ,you are denying the word of God as an unbeliever would.
It is one thing to not understand...but another to deny.

All scripture is God breathed...not cultural, or impressions the people had..
Thus saith the Lord...means Thus saith the Lord.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Michael,

All scripture is God breathed...even this one;



This was commanded by the God of jn 3:16...as was the flood that destroyed all but 8 souls......if you do not believe it ,you are denying the word of God as an unbeliever would.
It is one thing to not understand...but another to deny.

All scripture is God breathed...not cultural, or impressions the people had..
Thus saith the Lord...means Thus saith the Lord.

All I can say is, I don't believe the God and Father of Jesus ever ordered the extermination of the innocent. I know I'm repeating myself; I'll try not to do that again. But I wanted to reply to you.

Judge me as you wish, but God is my final judge, and the One that counts.

 

[jbh28]

Then by that reasoning you and others shouldn't object to the use of the word "infallible" as applied to the pope.

How does that even come close to logical? How does God's word = pope's word?

Infallible man? Infallible book? Neither -- infallible God only.

Sorry, but that's completely wrong.
2 Timothy 3:16, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,"

 

[jbh28]

All I can say is, I don't believe the God and Father of Jesus ever ordered the extermination of the innocent. I know I'm repeating myself; I'll try not to do that again. But I wanted to reply to you.

Judge me as you wish, but God is my final judge, and the One that counts.

So that's what you have to say after a direct word of God was given to you? We gave you where God himself said something.

 

[DHK]

All I can say is, I don't believe the God and Father of Jesus ever ordered the extermination of the innocent. I know I'm repeating myself; I'll try not to do that again. But I wanted to reply to you.

Judge me as you wish, but God is my final judge, and the One that counts.

Perhaps it was a great demonstration of his mercy.
Perhaps He knew that had those innocent (those under the age of accountability), had they grown up, would have grown up to be idolaters, hateful, rejecting the God of Israel, and thus condemning themselves to Hell. In this way God took them to heaven before they could make that decision.
It is the same way in abortions. I believe all those aborted infants will be in heaven. That is the silver lining. It is an example of the mercy of God.

However, for those that were guilty, they got what they justly deserved. What were they "innocent" of? We are ALL worthy of God's condemnation. There is no one that has ever lived that has merited eternal life.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Perhaps it was a great demonstration of his mercy.
Perhaps He knew that had those innocent (those under the age of accountability), had they grown up, would have grown up to be idolaters, hateful, rejecting the God of Israel, and thus condemning themselves to Hell. In this way God took them to heaven before they could make that decision.
It is the same way in abortions. I believe all those aborted infants will be in heaven. That is the silver lining. It is an example of the mercy of God.

However, for those that were guilty, they got what they justly deserved. What were they "innocent" of? We are ALL worthy of God's condemnation. There is no one that has ever lived that has merited eternal life.

That is one way of looking at it. I've thought about that before. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I see where you're coming from.

 

[Iconoclast]

All I can say is, I don't believe the God and Father of Jesus ever ordered the extermination of the innocent. I know I'm repeating myself; I'll try not to do that again. But I wanted to reply to you.

Judge me as you wish, but God is my final judge, and the One that counts.

Michael,

Thank you for responding. I think I understand in a way what you are thinking.....but again.....there are way too many texts...that you would have to avoid for what you are setting forth.

Look at it this way...someone else posted that there are no innocent persons.
here are a few more examples;

Deuteronomy 7

1When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

2And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

3Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. 4For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

Michael these are clear.....

21And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

22Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

23Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

24Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
25And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants. 26Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:

27(For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled 28That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.

29For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
30Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.

The nations were completely defiled [unless Van wants to re-interpret to mean that they were not defiled everyday] But lets just go with what Moses says....as God had Moses write it. There are many such texts that have to be addressed.......I am not asking you to do that right now...take some time and look at some of the historical commentators...like Matthew Henry.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Michael,

Thank you for responding. I think I understand in a way what you are thinking.....but again.....there are way too many texts...that you would have to avoid for what you are setting forth.

Look at it this way...someone else posted that there are no innocent persons.
here are a few more examples;




Michael these are clear.....



The nations were completely defiled [unless Van wants to re-interpret to mean that they were not defiled everyday] But lets just go with what Moses says....as God had Moses write it. There are many such texts that have to be addressed.......I am not asking you to do that right now...take some time and look at some of the historical commentators...like Matthew Henry.

Oh, I know the depths of evil to which humanity can sink, and how vile humans can become. Take Hitler, for example. I think he deserved whatever he got -- and then he got off too light.

I still have trouble with children suffering and being killed, but I get your point and the point of the scriptures you quoted.

 

[Mark_13]

Perhaps it was a great demonstration of his mercy.
Perhaps He knew that had those innocent (those under the age of accountability), had they grown up, would have grown up to be idolaters, hateful, rejecting the God of Israel, and thus condemning themselves to Hell. In this way God took them to heaven before they could make that decision.
It is the same way in abortions. I believe all those aborted infants will be in heaven. That is the silver lining. It is an example of the mercy of God.

However, for those that were guilty, they got what they justly deserved. What were they "innocent" of? We are ALL worthy of God's condemnation. There is no one that has ever lived that has merited eternal life.

:applause::applause::applause:

 

[jbh28]

Oh, I know the depths of evil to which humanity can sink, and how vile humans can become. Take Hitler, for example. I think he deserved whatever he got -- and then he got off too light.

I still have trouble with children suffering and being killed, but I get your point and the point of the scriptures you quoted.

Michael, when we compare a child to Hitler, I can see your point. However, we cannot compare people to other people. We must compare to God. God is holy. Children, like the rebellious ones in the example are not holy. We all deserve hell. One is either holy or not holy. There are no innocent people. All are sinners.

 

[Iconoclast]

Oh, I know the depths of evil to which humanity can sink, and how vile humans can become. Take Hitler, for example. I think he deserved whatever he got -- and then he got off too light.

I still have trouble with children suffering and being killed, but I get your point and the point of the scriptures you quoted.

MW,

This world is not our home, as our citizenship is in heaven. God does not delight in the death of the wicked...but apart from repentance they will die and go to the Judgement.
If the wicked are cut-off early it is less sin that they will commit and accumulate.

21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Michael, when we compare a child to Hitler, I can see your point. However, we cannot compare people to other people. We must compare to God. God is holy. Children, like the rebellious ones in the example are not holy. We all deserve hell. One is either holy or not holy. There are no innocent people. All are sinners.

And yet surely you would agree that God does not hold children accountable and therefore treats them differently than those who are accountable.

 

[jbh28]

And yet surely you would agree that God does not hold children accountable and therefore treats them differently than those who are accountable.

All are accountable for their actions. All people including children deserve hell because we all have sinned against an infinite holy God.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

All are accountable for their actions. All people including children deserve hell because we all have sinned against an infinite holy God.

So, you believe that infants and children who die go to hell?