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Penal Substitution

Is Penal Substitution a Biblical doctrine?

  • It is correct and a primary doctrine

    Votes: 12 80.0%

  • No it is not and a dangerous doctrine

    Votes: 1 6.7%

  • Believers who do not hold to it must be separated from fellowship

    Votes: 4 26.7%

  • I do not hold to it

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • I do hold to it

    Votes: 7 46.7%

  • It is not worth breaking fellowship over

    Votes: 1 6.7%
  • Total voters
    15
I

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Michael Wrenn said:
So, you believe that infants and children who die go to hell?
Click to expand...

From the 1689

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )
 
J

jbh28

Active Member
Michael Wrenn said:
So, you believe that infants and children who die go to hell?
Click to expand...

What does the Bible say? Personally, I believe that infants and those not capable of understanding God will save. But we all deserve hell. No one is holy and deserves heaven. But we were not talking about infants, so lets get back. Children, if they are not saved, yes. Why wouldn't they? they are not holy. They have sinned. do you think they deserve heaven?
 
M

Michael Wrenn

New Member
jbh28 said:
What does the Bible say? Personally, I believe that infants and those not capable of understanding God will save. But we all deserve hell. No one is holy and deserves heaven. But we were not talking about infants, so lets get back. Children, if they are not saved, yes. Why wouldn't they? they are not holy. They have sinned. do you think they deserve heaven?
Click to expand...

I don't think children have sinned until they are capable of moral decision. I have a 4-year-old granddaughter; I do not think she has sinned.
 
M

Michael Wrenn

New Member
Iconoclast said:
From the 1689

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )
Click to expand...

Of course I do not agree with the Calvinism expressed here. But at least it's consistent. I don't know if you are Primitive Baptist, but one thing I like about them is that they affirm a way of salvation for those who have never heard of Jesus.

I had a good friend on here years ago, Jeff Weaver, who was a PB. I got along much better with him than with SBC and IFB Baptists. :)
 
J

jbh28

Active Member
Michael Wrenn said:
I don't think children have sinned until they are capable of moral decision. I have a 4-year-old granddaughter; I do not think she has sinned.
Click to expand...

Does the Bible say that? I believe anyone unable god saves. 4 year olds are able to make moral decisions. What are they doing when they say "no!" to mother? ;)

However it seems the topic has swayed a little...
 
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D

DaChaser1

New Member
jbh28 said:
Does the Bible say that? I believe anyone unable god saves. 4 year olds are able to make moral decisions. What are they doing when they say "no!" to mother? ;)

However it seems the topic has swayed a little...
Click to expand...

Think that infants/children/mentally challenged etc are sinners, but have been covered by God thru the atoning work of Christ , He has applied that towards them to effectually keep them from being lost iif they died before the time he saw them being morally responsible/accountible to God for them!
 
D

DaChaser1

New Member
Iconoclast said:
From the 1689

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )
Click to expand...

believe the Bible, not the confessional truth, would be that God has chosen to elect in Christ unto salvation ALL children that would die under the time that He saw them as being personal and morally responsible to God for their sins!
 
I

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
DaChaser1 said:
believe the Bible, not the confessional truth, would be that God has chosen to elect in Christ unto salvation ALL children that would die under the time that He saw them as being personal and morally responsible to God for their sins!
Click to expand...

This statement from the confession is the biblical view...you are missing the truth that all died in Adam...and are conceived spiritually dead.

MW......I am a Reformed Baptist. ARBCA
 
D

DaChaser1

New Member
Iconoclast said:
This statement from the confession is the biblical view...you are missing the truth that all died in Adam...and are conceived spiritually dead.

MW......I am a Reformed Baptist. ARBCA
Click to expand...

i agree with you on our spiritual condition, but also believe that God can and has elected to save ALL who would not yet be morally accountible for their personal sins as of yet...

He chose to apply the grace from/of the Cross to cover them until age of accountibility, similiar way OT believers were 'covered" by NOT OT sacrifices, but by God knowing that the messiah those sacrifices were poiting towards was to come!
 
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