Jon, you're in a deep minority here with penal substitution, from what I can see.
It may be best for you to just drop it. If you can't see then you just can't see it.
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Penalsubstitutionism.
- Thread starter JonC
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Jon, you're in a deep minority here with penal substitution, from what I can see.
It may be best for you to just drop it. If you can't see then you just can't see it.
This is a false claim.
We are told to test doctrine. How? By what is written in Scripture.
Now, there can and will still be differences in interpretation.
BUT we are not talking about differences in interpretation. With Penal Substitution Theory we are talking about a faith that is completely foreign to the Biblical test.
FOR EXAMPLE - I can highlight my believ if God's Word. Another may do the same and we can discuss differences in interpretation. BUT you cannot because your belief is not there. You can only tell us what men have told you the Bible teaches.
Jehovah Witnesses can do that as well. How are you any different?
On this forum, yes. I am. There are Baptist forums where I would be in a majority. If this were a Reformed Baptist forum I'd be in a minority as well.
But narrow is the way. I done seek to be in the majority, and "oroving" something by relying on the size of its believers is a logical fallacy.
You are also wrong.
I DO "see it". I studied, held, and taught it for decades. But I realize I am wrong.
Do you love bring in a majority here more than you love God?
I doubt you do.
Do you love your own understanding more than you love God's Word?
I believe so.
What is the difference between you and a Jehovah Witness when it comes to doctrine?
The difference is the men you choose to follow and believe.
Those "gaps" you see in God's Word are in your understanding...they are not really there.
Trust in every word that comes from God and stop leaning on your own understanding
...or the understanding of the men you decided to follow.
God's Word IS complete and perfect. God does not need you to correct Him.
Whatever you say, Jon. I've said my piece on the matter.
All I can do now is disagree, and end up getting nasty about it.
Not going there!
No need for anybody to get nasty.
But iron sharpens iron (in the process both pieces of iron are vulnerable).
I do not believe in discussing via emotion.
I really do want to know exactly how you "test" doctrine when what you are testing is not in God's Word (is one of those "gaps" you see).
Is it that you are personally drawn to one group of men and their opinions?
I ask because when it comes to scholarship there are not many that would be on par with men like NT Wright and Karl Barth (but these two held different views, and I think both wrong at certain points where they depart from God's Word).
Or if it comes to sacrifice and a Christian life, few are on par with AW Tozier. Is that the criteria?
Or is it simply that you think we should pick the ones who "tickle our ears", who are in a camp with which we can easily identify?
When the text in the Greek and Hebrew texts themselves support psa, what do you say to that?
What's the problem with you, Jon?
Is that you can't accept your view to be rejected, or do you just like arguing?
Ok.......soooooo....
We are 87 posts into the 3rd thread asking for ANY passage that states Jesus suffered God's wrath instead of us.....or...Jesus died for our sins instead of us......or that God cannot forgive sins but must punish them......or.....that Jesus suffered God's wrath.......
I think it is fait to say, as @Charlie24 has, that the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement is foreign to the text of Scripture (it is not "what is written" in God's Word) but is instead the opinions of men who did not belueve God made sence in what He gave us and included "gaps" that needed to be filled.
We are 87 posts into the 3rd thread asking for ANY passage that states Jesus suffered God's wrath instead of us.....or...Jesus died for our sins instead of us......or that God cannot forgive sins but must punish them......or.....that Jesus suffered God's wrath.......
I think it is fait to say, as @Charlie24 has, that the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement is foreign to the text of Scripture (it is not "what is written" in God's Word) but is instead the opinions of men who did not belueve God made sence in what He gave us and included "gaps" that needed to be filled.
Get a grip on yourself man. You're a moderator, you're supposed to be an example for others.
You know that, right?
It is not that I mind my view being rejected. But I do like arguing, so that one is accurate.
But neither is what is "with me".
I post so that others (not necessarily penal substitution theorists) who pass by may think "hey.....he's right.....even @Charlie24 recognized Penal Substitution Theory is not actually in God's Word".
Then, hopefully, they will realize that the reason Penal Substitution theorists hold the faith they hold is because they have found a group of mem that "tickle their ears", that Penal Substitution theorists have the same method as Jehovah Witnesses and SDA in that they trust the teachings of men over Scripture.
Then I hope they will consider all of the groups who have, although they may have disagreed, believed that God's Word is complete and what He communicated is in His Word. Maybe they will think "let me see if God's Word makes sence without trying to fill in any gaps".
Then I hope they will actually read God's Word and realize there are no gaps at all.
Then, even if they land on an interpretation that differs from mine, I hope they believe the words they read.
I also hope, if they do end up believing God's Word, that they will also find communities of believers and congregations, as I have here and where I previously lived, who also see no "gaps" but actually follow God's Word. That way they can continue to grow, and they can discuss these foundational doctrines among true believers who consider God's Word as accurate and complete. I hope that they will realize how quickly Scripture will open up for them and how shallow a faith Pensl Substitution Theory provided, how low a view of sin, of God, and of the Cross.
That is why I continue.
This has only happened twice from my interactions on this board, but those two Christians who have ended up exchanging Penal Substitution Theory for God's Word were worth the effort if nobody else decides to abandon that "gap" theory.
As a moderator I am supposed to moderate posts (these are reported through a system people access by tapping the button titled....coincidentally...."Report".
The role of moderator does not include supporting error in order to spare those who "discuss" with their emotions. And it certainly does not mean I am not longer a member who can express his own beliefs.
My example to others is when men say they have verses stating their belief, hold them to it.
Also, when men in a discussion claim you have rejected "many passages" (as @DaveXR650 did to me) publicly call them out and ask them to provide those passages. If they can't or won't then they are disqualified because of their character.
Which reminds me....
@DaveXR650 , did you ever find those "many" passages you said were posted but I rejected?
I don't use that button, I can take care of my own problems on the boards.
That's fine. But my job is to address the reports for those who do use that button.
No, rather its that we have plainly given you many scriptures by the various posters here who hold to psa, and you just say "taint so"
The problem is that when you reject psa as not being biblical, then you are assuming that you have infallible knowledge that it is so, as at best yuou should be saying that my understanding and how I view the scriptures do noyt support it
But maybe you should take a few days off. Maybe go to the park, sit on the bench with a bag of peanuts, tell some folks Jesus Loves them.
I like surf fishing when I just need to relax, let some tensions go, you know.
Here is something from someone smarter than any on this board posting on this subject, myself included
Answering Four Common Objections to Penal Substitutionary Atonement - 9Marks
At the root of every caricature of penal substitutionary atonement is a distorted doctrine of God.
www.9marks.org
Stephen J. Wellum is a professor of Christian theology at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky and editor of The Southern Baptist Journal of Theology.
Penal Substitution is The Heart of the Gospel
Penal Substitution is at the heart of the atonement, and therefore the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and yet there are other aspects that are beautifully and powerfully affirmed in Scripture and need to be presented at length so that we can properly engage with people and encourage our churches.
But Jon, don't ask any of those folks at the park about penal substitution, you want to have an enjoyable visit to the park.
Ok....now you ate bearing false witness. If you cannot participate without sinning then it would be best for you not to participate.
Which verse did you provide that stated God punished our sins on Jesus or Jesus experienced God's wrath instead of us, or Jesus died instead of us?
You have not.
@Charlie24 correctly identified the issue. Penal Substitution Theory is not in Scripture but instead it is what Penal Substitution theorists believe Scripture teaches.
And, don't get me wrong, that is fair. You can hold a position that the Bible teaches such and such. Seventh Day Adventists do. Jehovah Witnesses do. Presbyterians do. Methodists do. Roman Catholics do. That is perfectly fair.
BUT when you believe in what you think the Bible teaches you have no room to debate or argue against anybody else (the criteria not being "what ia written" but "what a group thinks is taught").
Your mistake was in pretending that Penal Substitution Theory is in the text of Scripture. You failed that test.
I respect @Charlie24 because out of all of you he has been the only honest member. He admitted that he sees "gaps" in God's Word and thinks that this is where men step in. I believe these "gaps" do not exist.
Let me make a quick correction on that last line, Jon.
For me, it's not men that step in, it's my Buddy, my Companion, the One I turn to in those times, the Comforter.
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