Pentecostal Baptist?

[mandym]

Tongues - glossa - Languages this was for edifying those in the church. Now keep in mind in the early church many folks came from other places and they heard the Gospel in their own native tongue. Tongues was a gift to communicate the word to the hearer not as sign of some great spiritual person receiving it. When tongues were spoken Paul insisted that 2 or 3 interpreters be present. For the edifying of the church, not the speaker. This again is not happening today.

I disagree, it was for the lost not the church:

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

 

[TCassidy]

Straight translation greek to english of verse 10:

But when the (telion) completed (perfect or ended) comes, the partial will be done away.

So when we take it in context from the Greek it all comes together.

Good exegesis. Also bear in mind that the antecedent of "perfect" is the same antecedent as "in part."

Therefore it is silly to try to make it read, "When the complete Christ comes the partial Christ will be done away."

Or, "When the complete return of Christ is come the partial return of Christ will be done away."

The only possible reading has to be taken from the immediate preceding context, "When the complete revelation is come the partial revelation will be done away."

If we look at the preceding context (there is a novel idea, read it in CONTEXT) there is no mention of Christ or His second coming. The subject is the spiritual sign gifts as they pertain to the self-revelation of God to mankind.

It is all very simple to understand if you don't approach it with a denominational or doctrinal ax to grind. Res ipsa loquitur. Let the word speak for itself.

 

[revmwc]

I disagree, it was for the lost not the church:

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Throughout the book of 1st Corinthians Paul says all the gifts were given for the edification of the church. In verses 25And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

26How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

27If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.



Verse 26 tongues was listed as part of the gifts that edified the church. Verse 27 which I misspoke in my post says two or three should speak in tongues and one should interpret. So it appears it had a dual purpose.

They are not valid today in any form. Almost everyone in Americas churches speak English or have someone who translate English to Spanish. Those who translate have been taught two languages. Missionaries who go to foreign countries must be taught the language of the people thay are going to. So the gift has apparantly ceased.

 

[mandym]

Throughout the book of 1st Corinthians Paul says all the gifts were given for the edification of the church. In verses 25And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

You are lumping them all in one group while denying distinctions between each of them. Either way you look at we cannot get around v.22 with regards to tongues.

I have never seen nor heard of any legitimate tongues. I am not really expecting to. But if someone said they were in a situation where they could not speak the language of someone God put in their path and yet somehow they were able to communicate the gospel in a way that could be understood by them then I would be willing to consider it. tongues never have been for the church edification. V.22 makes that clear.

 

[revmwc]

You are lumping them all in one group while denying distinctions between each of them. Either way you look at we cannot get around v.22 with regards to tongues.

I have never seen nor heard of any legitimate tongues. I am not really expecting to. But if someone said they were in a situation where they could not speak the language of someone God put in their path and yet somehow they were able to communicate the gospel in a way that could be understood by them then I would be willing to consider it. tongues never have been for the church edification. V.22 makes that clear.

Did you miss verse 26 and I said it would appear it had a dual purpose. Now you are arguing for arguement sake it appears.

 

[mandym]

Did you miss verse 26 and I said it would appear it had a dual purpose. Now you are arguing for arguement sake it appears.

I don't get the accusation. Whatever you think v.26 indicates you have not dealt with v.22 I brought that up and was wanting you to address it. But the accusation of arguing for arguing sake is odd. Why the hostility?

 

[revmwc]

I don't get the accusation. Whatever you think v.26 indicates you have not dealt with v.22 I brought that up and was wanting you to address it. But the accusation of arguing for arguing sake is odd. Why the hostility?

I did address it you missed it, I said it appears tongues had a dual purpose.

Let me clear it up verse 22 for the lost, verse 26 for the edification of the church.

 

[mandym]

I did address it you missed it, I said it appears tongues had a dual purpose.

Let me clear it up verse 22 for the lost, verse 26 for the edification of the church.

In post 63 your first sentence said it was for the church but made no claim of dual purpose. If there is a sentence in post 63 that indicated a dual purpose then I apologize and I missed it. I still do not see it. Simply posting v.26 does not indicate you believe in a dual purpose. And seem to only back up your first sentence.

 

[revmwc]

In post 63 your first sentence said it was for the church but made no claim of dual purpose. If there is a sentence in post 63 that indicated a dual purpose then I apologize and I missed it. I still do not see it. Simply posting v.26 does not indicate you believe in a dual purpose. And seem to only back up your first sentence.

Right at the end of verse 26 it may been obscured sorry.

 

[mandym]

Right at the end of verse 26 it may been obscured sorry.

The last part of that verse did not indicate to me you intended a dual purpose in light of your first statement.

Moving on when you read that v.26 the word tongue is not used in the context of one of the sign gifts. In fact the list is a song, a teaching, a language, and a revelation. None of these are Spirit endowed gifts in the same manner of the day of Pentecost. The church was multi-cultural and while they had their own native language they all spoke in greek. The interpretation was needed because when they spoke in their own language not everyone understood. This form of tongues was not a supernatural moment.

 

[DHK]

I disagree, it was for the lost not the church:

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Tongues had many purposes. Here are some things that we know about tongues:
1. They were a temporary gift and would cease (1Cor.13:8)
2. They would cease by the end of the first century by the time the canon of Scripture was complete (1Cor.13:10-13)
3. Of all the gifts of the Spirit, the gift of tongues and the interpretation of them were the least in order of importance (1Cor.12:28-30).
4. One of the major reasons it was given was as a sign of the apostles to verify the apostles message. (2Cor.12:12; Heb.2:3,4)
5. Another reason was to edify the church that did not speak the universal Greek language for the entire NT canon had not yet been complete. It was prophecy, but in another language.
6. The greatest and most important reason was that it was a sign for the unbelieving Jew. (1Cor.14:21,22).
Verse 21 is a fulfillment of Isaiah 28:11,12. Israel would hear God's message from Gentile nations. This was something unheard of, and would be a sign of coming judgment. And if they did not take heed of God's judgment then, it would be the last straw. They disregarded the sign and judgment did come. The Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D.
Verse 22 goes with verse 21 and specifically describes these Israelites as those that do not believe--the unbelieving Jews. They are a sign to the unbelieving Jew. That is why the gift of tongues showed up at Pentecost when thousands and thousands of Jews were present. Three thousand of them took heed and got saved. However, many mocked and rejected the sign instead.
7. Paul rebukes them for the abuse of tongues, and discourages them from speaking in tongues. He says that he would rather speak in five words that one can understand then in 10,000 words that people cannot understand. Speaking in a language that others cannot understand is of no profit.
8. Finally, he rebukes all women who speak in tongues (14:34,35). It is totally unbiblical for any women to speak in tongues. They were to keep silent in the church:

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. (1 Corinthians 14:34-35)

 

[revmwc]

The last part of that verse did not indicate to me you intended a dual purpose in light of your first statement.

Moving on when you read that v.26 the word tongue is not used in the context of one of the sign gifts. In fact the list is a song, a teaching, a language, and a revelation. None of these are Spirit endowed gifts in the same manner of the day of Pentecost. The church was multi-cultural and while they had their own native language they all spoke in greek. The interpretation was needed because when they spoke in their own language not everyone understood. This form of tongues was not a supernatural moment.

Paul put it in with them, then in 1 Corinthians 14:
Paul says this, 2For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.



verse 12 Paul tells the purpose of spiritual gifts,

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.


The gift of tongues it appears from scripture served several purposes while they were valid.

Verses 22 of chapter 13For the presenting of the gospel for the unbeliever.

Verse 2 of chapter 14 speaking to God.

Verse 5 for edifying the believers in in effective witnessing and communicating doctrine.

Tongues served several purposes but as prophesy ceased and knowledge ceased when the complete came, so also was tongues grouped with them.

 

[mandym]

Paul put it in with them, then in 1 Corinthians 14:
Paul says this, 2For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.



verse 12 Paul tells the purpose of spiritual gifts,

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.


The gift of tongues it appears from scripture served several purposes while they were valid.

Verses 22 of chapter 13For the presenting of the gospel for the unbeliever.

Verse 2 of chapter 14 speaking to God.

Verse 5 for edifying the believers in in effective witnessing and communicating doctrine.

Tongues served several purposes but as prophesy ceased and knowledge ceased when the complete came, so also was tongues grouped with them.

We've covered this. nothing new is being said. Good night.

 

[revmwc]

We've covered this. nothing new is being said. Good night.

At least you must have agreed that the completion of the bible was the determining factor for them ending.

 

[mandym]

At least you must have agreed that the completion of the bible was the determining factor for them ending.

Why?

 

[TCassidy]

Why?

Uh, because the bible says so?:laugh:

 

[dcorbett]

I have read this discussion...I am still trying to find where our charismatic colleagues are picking up poisonous snakes and not being struck dead if the gifts are still valid today.

Otherwise, gifts are being picked according to safety.

 

[revmwc]

Why?

You stopped debating that and went to the reason for tongues. That would lead one to conclude you decided the issue of the "THAT" which is perfect was indeed the canon's completion.

If you then break it down from greek to English look at commentaries and dictionaries to see what conclussion you come up with.

 

[JesusFan]

John did not write the book of Revelation, per se; the Holy Spirit did. Thus it is the Holy Spirit that guided John to write 1:3 admonishing us to read and take heed to the things written in the book, and the same Holy Spirit that tells us:

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: (Revelation 22:18)

John was the youngest of the disciples, and the one to have outlived them all. This was his last book, and thus put at the end of the canon of the NT, and appropriately so.

John knew that he was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, as he was told to write these things down by God himself. The apostles knew which epistles were inspired and which were not.

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:15-16)
--Peter refers to Paul's epistles as Scripture. Even though Paul had written more than just the 13 epistles contained in our canon he also wrote to the Laodiceans, and two more epistles to the Corinthians. But both Paul and Peter knew which ones were inspired.

This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: (2 Peter 3:1-2)
--If you study verse two carefully here you notice that the Bible is divided into two parts: the OT written by the prophets, and the NT written by the apostles. Peter tells them to keep in remembrance the words of Christ and the apostles (that is the NT), and puts them on the same level as the inspired OT.

To say that the canon is still open today is a ridiculous position to take.
First, according to the Bible, every prophecy would have to be verified, and everyone that had uttered a false prophecy would have to be taken out and stoned. Would you do the honors?

Second you have an editorial problem. From the first century until now and all over the globe, if the gifts are still in operation, then all those words of knowledge, those prophecies, those messages in tongues (languages) are all inspired. Whether they are from believers in Africa, Asia or here they all have to be gathered up, collated, and put into great tomes (for there are many), because all would now be a part of the canon. All the "I have a word from the Lord), the vision from God, the dream from the Lord, the word of knowledge, what God spoke to me, etc. They all have to be collected and made available for all. Otherwise how will we know what God's complete Word is? We can't. Will you be the "chief-editor-in-charge"?

Third, you have no answer for the total lack of evidence of any of the sign gifts taking place today. If the canon was not closed, revelation would be accompanied by signs and wonders. But those have ceased. There are no tongues, no miracles, no prophecy; none of these gifts that can be exercised in a Biblical way today.

This strict interpretation of the continuing/not continuing of the Spiritual Gifts assumes though that the sign gifts were ONLY used by God as revelatory, and my conclusion is that while that was the truth concerning when exercised in the Body by the Apostles/prophets in early Church...
that there were OTHER uses by God of them even during Apostolic times of the early Church..

They were used to give direction/guidence to believers, and to build up/edify the local body of believers, as in book of Hebrews...

Think that one can hold to them still opearing todayIF we understand that the revelatory aspect HAS ceased, as the offices of Apostle/prophet done away with as the Church message of Christ as messiah was confirmed through signs and wonders , and we do now have the completed scriptures, BUT still looking to when God said that ALL would cease... To my understanding, that refers to the Second Coming of the Lord..

maybe its also a "sematical " thing to a degree going on...
Most Christians today still would say that the Lord can 'speak" to them by Holy Spirit witnesing to them internally, and that there are times when he brings verses to their mind to give a "word" to someone else...

What I might call" word of wisdom/knowledge" you might tend to say is the Holy Spirit 'revealing/showing" to us a specific scripture verse that speaks to the situation...
in prayer or witnessing situatios also, know that most of us can have that "sudden" verse/wisdom/words to share with other party, and we might call it different terms for same thing...

Just saying that we Baptists can still agree that the Holy spirit is active and able to do 'stuff" among us , even if we cannot agree on the terminoloy to label it under!