tragic_pizza
New Member
With all possible respect, sir, it was you who psoted the joke I am talking about. So yes, you have.
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Pentecostal Man’s Glossolalia Echos NBA Rosters
- Thread starter Joseph_Botwinick
- Start date
tragic_pizza
New Member
You don't get it do you TP? In the end you do realize that you are defending the Charismatic movement whether you say you are or not. You have implicitly taken a stand in favor of the Charismatic movement by your silence in not standing against them.</font>[/QUOTE]Why, prithee, should I "stand against them?"
Ad hominem and straw man arguing again? Tell, me, DHK, what god does the Church of God worship? Who does the Assemblies of God affirm rose from the dead?
I'll make it easy for you. To the first, the CoG worships the same God as the rest of Protestant Christianity. The Assemblies of God affirm that Jesus Christ arose on the third day in accordance with Scripture.
So all that railing about Elijah and such is, once again, as before, misdirected, because Pentecostalism is not, nor has it ever been, synonomous with heatherism and pagaon worship.
Your hyperbole continues to overstep your understanding.
Which has what to do with the conversation at hand?
tragic_pizza
New Member
Try and focus on the matter at hand and we'll talk, OK?
You should stand against any and all heresy, and shame on you if you don't.
Who has the "ad hominem" here? I never mentioned a church of any kind. I mentioned a false doctrine, which any good Bible-believing Christian should stand against.
I'll make it even easier for you. I don't know what got you started on the above mentioned churches because I never mentioned them. But there is a poster on this thread that does belong to the Oneness Pentecostal church that:
denies the trinity,
believes in baptismal regeneration,
believes that tongues is the evidence of salvation
denies justification by faith
believes that being born again is repentance + faith + baptism
believes one must baptized by Oneness people only
believes baptism must be "in the name of Jesus" only.
believes that only Oneness people will go to heaven.
The great emphasis that this cult places on tongues only further demonstrates the damnable heresy that it is.
That depends which branch of Pentecostalism you are speaking of. Be careful of making false accusations, or shall I spend about 5 pages like a certain person I know demanding an apology. One of the major founders of early Pentecostalism happened to be William Branham. If you don't know what the Branhamites believe I suggest you find out. They too are a cult. The Jesus he worships(ed) is not the same Jesus that I worship.
I don't recall using any hyperboles at all. You will have to remind me.
Scripture has nothing to do with the conversation at hand? How sad for you to say that. The topic was about a joke made about tongues. You are the one supposedly opposed to it. But I show you such examples in Scripture, and you pass it off saying it has nothing to do with the conversation--so sad. Elijah mocked false teachers and their false doctrine. True or false?
DHK
The question isn't, did speaking in tongues exist in the Bible? The question is, Is what goes on in the churches of charismania Biblical.
Since Acts 2:4-11 teaches that when men spoke in tongues (i.e., "as the Spirit gave the utterance"), they spoke actual, understandable human languages, why believe that any other cases of tongue speaking were in languages which could not be understood (e.g., Acts 10:46, 19:6, 1 Cor. 12-14)?
LINK: 20th Century Tongues... Faith or Fake?
You need to go back and show me where I have said that I am Pentecostal, and thus am reaction to a personal insult.
Let me save you some time. I have not posited a stance on tongues. I am, if you care to look at my profile, Presbyterian, and PC(USA) at that.
The truth of the matter is debatable, and is frankly not a part of this discussion as far as I am concerned. What is germaine to this discussion is the fact that this "joke" is insulting to a given group of Christians, and blatantly so.
Your justification in thinking it funny, like so many others, is based upon your own subjective experience. Once again, it hearkens back to other forms of bigotry, religious and otherwise, where because of a person's limited experience, all members of a race/sect/tradition are painted with the same brush.
No, mister 1611, you don't get it. The joke doesn't insult me directly, but I think that any Christian that can mock and deride any Christian belief that does not walk in lockstep with his or her own particular belief system is a hypocrite, plain and simple. That this board seems to host so many of them is pitiable. </font>[/QUOTE]__________________________________________________
No sir. You NEED to show ME where I said you ARE Pentacostal.
I get mocking all the time because I am KJVo. Big deal.
But, this joke IS funny, because it is TRUE!
You still don't GET that part do you?
So what if it is insulting? Do you think the doctrines Jesus espoused DID NOT insult the Pahrisees? Ha! They killed Him for it. Their reaction to the insults (IMHO) show a direct correlation to your reactions. Jesus spoke Truth. They killed Him for it because they were insulted and threatened to be exposed for the vipers they were.
This mess of Pentacostalism is just as false and wrong. It SHOULD be exposed for the farce it is.
I get your "indignation" that one group of Christians should mock another. I submit that your defense of the Pentacostal doctrine is misplaced, that is IF you truly are Presbyterian.
In HIS service;
Jim
tragic_pizza
New Member
You should stand against any and all heresy, and shame on you if you don't.</font>[/QUOTE]"Standing against heresy" and "making jokes at others' expense" are not compatible aims.
Who has the "ad hominem" here? I never mentioned a church of any kind. I mentioned a false doctrine, which any good Bible-believing Christian should stand against. </font>[/QUOTE]
You equated Pentecostal churches as a class with heathens, then told me I need to read my Bible more. These are ad hominem attacks, as they add nothing to the discussion at hand, and are calculated to misdirect the discussion into an area more comfortable to the one posing said attack.
I don't need to enumerate or justify the amount of time I spend in Scripture in order to point out that mocking people is an unChristlike thing to do.
I'll make it even easier for you. I don't know what got you started on the above mentioned churches because I never mentioned them.</font>[/QUOTE]I started in on those churches because you are painting them all with the same brush.
Yet the administrators of the Board seem to think that it's a "Christian enough" sect to be included in these discussions. In any case, the thread isn't about this single segment of the Pentecostal movement, is it? The thread grew from a derisive joke against all Pentecostals. Again, you are attempting to misdirect the discussion into an area you are more comfortable with.
That depends which branch of Pentecostalism you are speaking of. Be careful of making false accusations, or shall I spend about 5 pages like a certain person I know demanding an apology. One of the major founders of early Pentecostalism happened to be William Branham. If you don't know what the Branhamites believe I suggest you find out. They too are a cult. The Jesus he worships(ed) is not the same Jesus that I worship. </font>[/QUOTE]
Well, you did not bother to differentiate between Branhamites, Oneness Pentecostals, and other Pentecostals in your comments, did you? Nor did the originating poster. You can be as insulted as you'd like over any imagined slight you care to, DHK, or you can try and understand the very simple point I am continuing to attempt to communicate. Your choice.
I don't recall using any hyperboles at all. You will have to remind me.</font>[/QUOTE]Reread your last post.
Scripture has nothing to do with the conversation at hand? How sad for you to say that. The topic was about a joke made about tongues. You are the one supposedly opposed to it. But I show you such examples in Scripture, and you pass it off saying it has nothing to do with the conversation--so sad. Elijah mocked false teachers and their false doctrine. True or false?
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Elijah was fighting worshippers of Ba'al, not people who claimed the same basic beliefs as did he. Your example is a lot like me making an argument for, say, the virgin birth and using a Scripture from Nehemiah about rebuilding the wall. Yes, it's Scripture, but it's Scripture directed toward an unrelated event.
Tell you what, DHK. Show me, in Scripture, where Christ or one of the Apostles made jokes deriding anyone at all, especially someone whose beliefs shared at least a passing acquaintance and I will be forced to surrender my position.
tragic_pizza
New Member
You need to go back and show me where I have said that I am Pentecostal, and thus am reaction to a personal insult.
Let me save you some time. I have not posited a stance on tongues. I am, if you care to look at my profile, Presbyterian, and PC(USA) at that.
The truth of the matter is debatable, and is frankly not a part of this discussion as far as I am concerned. What is germaine to this discussion is the fact that this "joke" is insulting to a given group of Christians, and blatantly so.
Your justification in thinking it funny, like so many others, is based upon your own subjective experience. Once again, it hearkens back to other forms of bigotry, religious and otherwise, where because of a person's limited experience, all members of a race/sect/tradition are painted with the same brush.
No, mister 1611, you don't get it. The joke doesn't insult me directly, but I think that any Christian that can mock and deride any Christian belief that does not walk in lockstep with his or her own particular belief system is a hypocrite, plain and simple. That this board seems to host so many of them is pitiable. </font>[/QUOTE]__________________________________________________
No sir. You NEED to show ME where I said you ARE Pentacostal.</font>[/QUOTE]Calling me "thin skinned" implies that I take personal affront to the joke.
I need to learn more about how, because you are derided for having a particular point of legalism to which you are particularly bound, you are thus freed to make deriding comments to others about their own particular doctrinal nuances.
OK, then, rather than try and untangle all of that, I'll offer the same challenge to you that I offer to DHK. Show me where, in Scripture, where Christ or one of the Apostles made jokes deriding anyone at all, especially someone whose beliefs shared at least a passing acquaintance and I will be forced to surrender my position.
I hardly know how to address this: refute the ad hominem or address the first?
OK, in order then. If Pentecostalism is "a farce," then shrieking about it on an internet message board is as effective as urinating on a forest fire, but if that's your particular comfort zone, more power to you, I guess. I don't like it when people bully others because they are in a safe place to do so. It is cowardly and unChristlike. It is, however, apparently a permissable activity on this particular Board.
And in case you've heard some odd things about Reformed theology, Presbyterians aren't prone to evangelizing through derisive jokes and hateful, mocking attacks. Presbyterians do most decidedly not reject tongues. It's said that, if anyone starts rolling in the aisles at a Presbyterian church, we'll just line them up so they roll decently and in order. So your snide comment about "truly [being] Presbyterian" is uninformed and misdirected.
I'd like to know, by the way, what a "true Presbyterian" is.
tragic_pizza
New Member
bump
Let's start here;
Mt 12:38
¶ Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
Mt 12:39
But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mt 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Mt 12:41
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mt 12:42
The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
Mt 12:43
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Mt 12:44
Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
Mt 12:45
Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
Let's see.
Jesus calls them
"A generation of vipers'
compares them to being less righteous than "the queen of the south'
calls them an "evil and adulterous generation"
says "the men of nineveh" will rise in judgement of this generation (who saw Jesus)
Oh never mind.
Obviously you cannot see Jesus, nor John, nor Paul, insulting those they addressed for their inaccurate and unbiblical views.
Be that as it may, the joke IS funny because it IS true.
Obviously you don't think so. We get that. What I don't get, is how you can defend an obviously unscriptural practice in the name of "charity".
In HIS service;
Jim
Mt 12:38
¶ Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
Mt 12:39
But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mt 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Mt 12:41
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mt 12:42
The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
Mt 12:43
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Mt 12:44
Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
Mt 12:45
Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
Let's see.
Jesus calls them
"A generation of vipers'
compares them to being less righteous than "the queen of the south'
calls them an "evil and adulterous generation"
says "the men of nineveh" will rise in judgement of this generation (who saw Jesus)
Oh never mind.
Obviously you cannot see Jesus, nor John, nor Paul, insulting those they addressed for their inaccurate and unbiblical views.
Be that as it may, the joke IS funny because it IS true.
Obviously you don't think so. We get that. What I don't get, is how you can defend an obviously unscriptural practice in the name of "charity".
In HIS service;
Jim
tragic_pizza
New Member
I am not defending an unScriptural practice, I am condemning one. Get that.
tragic_pizza
New Member
bump
DHK wrote,
**One of the major founders of early Pentecostalism happened to be William Branham. If you don't know what the Branhamites believe I suggest you find out.**
This isn't accurate. Branham started his tent meetings in the late 1930's. The modern Pentecostal movement started in 1901 or 1904 depending on which historian you talk to and how you interpret history. Branham was not a 'major founder' of Pentecostalism. He was Oneness and started his own movement, which, after he died, focused on his unusual beliefs, teachings, and prophecies. I would imagine they consider themselves to be Pentecotals. But we are talking about a tiny minority of people who call themselves Pentecostals, probably far less than 1%. Most people have never heard of Branhamites unless they are into some form of religious research.
Oneness Pentecostalism is a small minority. The vast majoirty of Pentecostal denominations affirm the Trinity and salvation by grace.
**One of the major founders of early Pentecostalism happened to be William Branham. If you don't know what the Branhamites believe I suggest you find out.**
This isn't accurate. Branham started his tent meetings in the late 1930's. The modern Pentecostal movement started in 1901 or 1904 depending on which historian you talk to and how you interpret history. Branham was not a 'major founder' of Pentecostalism. He was Oneness and started his own movement, which, after he died, focused on his unusual beliefs, teachings, and prophecies. I would imagine they consider themselves to be Pentecotals. But we are talking about a tiny minority of people who call themselves Pentecostals, probably far less than 1%. Most people have never heard of Branhamites unless they are into some form of religious research.
Oneness Pentecostalism is a small minority. The vast majoirty of Pentecostal denominations affirm the Trinity and salvation by grace.
Actually, I have run into quite a few Branhamites.
http://letusreason.org/Latrain3.htm
http://apologeticsindex.org/b05.html
Well DKH,
What do you think should be done about all of those Pentecostals out there.
Maybe you could
burn them at the stake?
MAke them walk the plank?
Put'um in front of a firing squad?
Force them to eat barbedwire?
Send them to prison?
permanantly Put'um in Chineese laundrymats?
[ February 04, 2005, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: atestring ]
What do you think should be done about all of those Pentecostals out there.
Maybe you could
burn them at the stake?
MAke them walk the plank?
Put'um in front of a firing squad?
Force them to eat barbedwire?
Send them to prison?
permanantly Put'um in Chineese laundrymats?
[ February 04, 2005, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: atestring ]
DHK quote:
I suppose ATE. What do you suggest?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Atestring, this sounds like Saul/Paul when he ..made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
Also, when...Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter agianst the diciples of the Lord,..
Intelligent as Saul/Paul was, he didn't realize who the Lord was, until it was revealed.
Acts 9:4) And he (Saul) fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5) And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus...
You see Saul knew who the Lord was, but he didn't realize that Jesus was Lord. This is where things changed for him. Keep in mind that Paul only believed in One Lord and now he realizes who the Lord God of heaven was.
Lots of people just don't see until God reveals things to them. It is up to that person to accept what God has shown to them, but some are too munch into tradition to give an inch.
Look what happend to millions of Jews because they rejected Him!
Don't worry atestring, God isn't going to let harm come to any Pentecostal.
After all, they do have His Spirit!
MEE
I suppose ATE. What do you suggest?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Atestring, this sounds like Saul/Paul when he ..made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
Also, when...Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter agianst the diciples of the Lord,..
Intelligent as Saul/Paul was, he didn't realize who the Lord was, until it was revealed.
Acts 9:4) And he (Saul) fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5) And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus...
You see Saul knew who the Lord was, but he didn't realize that Jesus was Lord. This is where things changed for him. Keep in mind that Paul only believed in One Lord and now he realizes who the Lord God of heaven was.
Lots of people just don't see until God reveals things to them. It is up to that person to accept what God has shown to them, but some are too munch into tradition to give an inch.
Look what happend to millions of Jews because they rejected Him!
Don't worry atestring, God isn't going to let harm come to any Pentecostal.
MEE
tragic_pizza
New Member
You should stand against any and all heresy, and shame on you if you don't.</font>[/QUOTE]"Standing against heresy" and "making jokes at others' expense" are not compatible aims.
Who has the "ad hominem" here? I never mentioned a church of any kind. I mentioned a false doctrine, which any good Bible-believing Christian should stand against. </font>[/QUOTE]
You equated Pentecostal churches as a class with heathens, then told me I need to read my Bible more. These are ad hominem attacks, as they add nothing to the discussion at hand, and are calculated to misdirect the discussion into an area more comfortable to the one posing said attack.
I don't need to enumerate or justify the amount of time I spend in Scripture in order to point out that mocking people is an unChristlike thing to do.
I'll make it even easier for you. I don't know what got you started on the above mentioned churches because I never mentioned them.</font>[/QUOTE]I started in on those churches because you are painting them all with the same brush.
Yet the administrators of the Board seem to think that it's a "Christian enough" sect to be included in these discussions. In any case, the thread isn't about this single segment of the Pentecostal movement, is it? The thread grew from a derisive joke against all Pentecostals. Again, you are attempting to misdirect the discussion into an area you are more comfortable with.
That depends which branch of Pentecostalism you are speaking of. Be careful of making false accusations, or shall I spend about 5 pages like a certain person I know demanding an apology. One of the major founders of early Pentecostalism happened to be William Branham. If you don't know what the Branhamites believe I suggest you find out. They too are a cult. The Jesus he worships(ed) is not the same Jesus that I worship. </font>[/QUOTE]
Well, you did not bother to differentiate between Branhamites, Oneness Pentecostals, and other Pentecostals in your comments, did you? Nor did the originating poster. You can be as insulted as you'd like over any imagined slight you care to, DHK, or you can try and understand the very simple point I am continuing to attempt to communicate. Your choice.
I don't recall using any hyperboles at all. You will have to remind me.</font>[/QUOTE]Reread your last post.
Scripture has nothing to do with the conversation at hand? How sad for you to say that. The topic was about a joke made about tongues. You are the one supposedly opposed to it. But I show you such examples in Scripture, and you pass it off saying it has nothing to do with the conversation--so sad. Elijah mocked false teachers and their false doctrine. True or false?
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Elijah was fighting worshippers of Ba'al, not people who claimed the same basic beliefs as did he. Your example is a lot like me making an argument for, say, the virgin birth and using a Scripture from Nehemiah about rebuilding the wall. Yes, it's Scripture, but it's Scripture directed toward an unrelated event.
Tell you what, DHK. Show me, in Scripture, where Christ or one of the Apostles made jokes deriding anyone at all, especially someone whose beliefs shared at least a passing acquaintance and I will be forced to surrender my position. </font>[/QUOTE]
Tragic Pizza,
Seems to me you are New Age, being so sympathetic with error and those who err - 'speaking in tongues'.
Look at this quote by Gail Ripplinger:
QB The MAIN tenet of the New World Religion is TOLERANCE for the religious beliefs of others. Therefore Christians may still believe that "Jesus Christ is come in the flesh" as stated in verse 2 above. BUT the broad way forbids that we say that one who "confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God." Therefore, I John 4:2 can stand with little alteration. BUT, I John 4:3 MUST change to conform to the unjudgmental broad way. "Christ is come in the flesh" must be removed. All New World Religion advocates will "acknowledge Jesus." QE
It applies?
Seems to me you are New Age, being so sympathetic with error and those who err - 'speaking in tongues'.
Look at this quote by Gail Ripplinger:
QB The MAIN tenet of the New World Religion is TOLERANCE for the religious beliefs of others. Therefore Christians may still believe that "Jesus Christ is come in the flesh" as stated in verse 2 above. BUT the broad way forbids that we say that one who "confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God." Therefore, I John 4:2 can stand with little alteration. BUT, I John 4:3 MUST change to conform to the unjudgmental broad way. "Christ is come in the flesh" must be removed. All New World Religion advocates will "acknowledge Jesus." QE
It applies?