tragic_pizza
New Member
I'm not Pentecostal, Philip. I'm Presbyterian.
And you. like everyone else, have missed the point. Nice talking to you.
And you. like everyone else, have missed the point. Nice talking to you.
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Pentecostal Man’s Glossolalia Echos NBA Rosters
- Thread starter Joseph_Botwinick
- Start date
tragic_pizza
New Member
So, y'all help me out. Where in Scripture does it say it's OK to make fun of other believers?
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Why would you automatically assume he held up his middle finger? That speaks VOLUMES of your mindset.
And...had you read a little further you would have seen that brother James did apologize.
You missed his point. The point being that the mess of Pentacostalism claims "gifts" of the spirit and James was asking the "Pentacostals" to "prophecy" and discern something they could not know without it being REVEALED to them. I got the joke. Admittedly, it was in poor taste and James apologized. But this is way off topic. The topic is the OP joke. Appropriate or not? I think it is appropriate and relevant to the mess in today's "charismanic" churches. As it is said; Been there, done that. It is NOT biblical tongues being used in those churches. One need only discern this by observing that in MOST western charismanic churches ALL those present speak English, hence there is NO NEED for tongues.
In HIS service;
Jim
tragic_pizza
New Member
So, since you think it is appropriate, Jim, care to comment on the verses I have offered in re the OP joke? Or do you have some insight on where in Scripture it's deemed appropriate to make fun of other believers?
Well Jim, on "The Day of Pentecost" when all of the different nationalities heard them speak in their own tongue, as the Spirit of God gave the utterance, why was it that when Peter spoke in one language that they all understood?
Acts 2:14) But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them Ye men of Judaea, an all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you and hearken to my words:
It's not any different today!
MEE
Pentecostal Man’s Glossolalia Echos NBA Rosters </font>[/QUOTE]This thread started out by saying " this is a joke."
I AM NOT LAUGHING!!
I am not taking this serious as was the suggested at the beginning of this thread.
What is the point to this thread?
I will put this in the catagory of the
Chineese Laundryman and the so called Mask man that is a vancouver greek scholar.
Well Jim, on "The Day of Pentecost" when all of the different nationalities heard them speak in their own tongue, as the Spirit of God gave the utterance, why was it that when Peter spoke in one language that they all understood?
Acts 2:14) But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them Ye men of Judaea, an all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you and hearken to my words:
It's not any different today!
MEE
I beg your pardon. Your statement "It's not any different today" is untrue.
You will note that in Acts 2, there were about 15 nationalities represented there. Every single one of them heard it in their OWN language. In an English speaking church, pray tell me, just HOW is it that tongues as practiced by the Charismanics is anything LIKE what happened in Acts 2? It just is not the same at all. Been there, done that. I personally KNOW what it is you folks do and ALL the verses you try to use to justify it. I was saved in a UPC in a little mountain town in Idaho. God delivered me from that mess by revealing the truth of the Scriptures ya'll twist to justify your unbiblical use of a God given gift to 1st century believers. That gift was given as a sign to unbelieving JEWS to confirm the resurrection!
In no way shape or form is the mess of charisma today the same. God does nothing needlessly and tongues today is needless in an all English speaking GENTILE church!
Nuff said.
In HIS service;
Jim
Why don't you reread my post and tell me exactly where I missed your point.
You explained that you wanted answers to why Christians would attack other Christians and I thought I answered that thoroughly.
I told you that attacks on people are not right. But, then I went on to say that I didn't see anything wrong with one stating his/her beliefs very firmly. The Bible itself allows this and that is exactly what Paul did on many occasions.
If I confused you for Pentecostal, I am sorry, that was just based on the earlier posts and my mistake.
Please tell me what, exactly, that I do not understand and what, exactly, does everybody else here not understand, please.
Well Jim, on "The Day of Pentecost" when all of the different nationalities heard them speak in their own tongue, as the Spirit of God gave the utterance, why was it that when Peter spoke in one language that they all understood?
Acts 2:14) But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them Ye men of Judaea, an all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you and hearken to my words:
It's not any different today!
MEE
The difference between then and now is that Peter was talking to many people that speak different languages. They each heard in their own language.
I do not understand how this relates to the charismatic movements "tongues" where they say some unknown words and somebody supposedly interprets them. The funny thing is, that there is not a single person in that church that understands that language, so why bother? This is the reason Paul said it is better to prophecy than to speak in tongues in your church. It does no good to speak another language if you cannot teach the crowd with it.
This is also the reason he said it was a sign only to unbelievers. So, that if an unbeliever were listening to Peter, he would probably become a believer by hearing a miracle of it being able to hear Peter in his/her own language.
The charismatics do not even follow Paul's directions properly. First, if it is only a sign for unbelievers, then why do charismatic churches insist on doing this among their own tight group of believers? Second, why do the charismatics not prophecy within their group and make THAT the main gift they seek rather than the proof of speaking in tongues---you know why? Because it is easier to mumble than it is to make a prophecy that comes true.
My pastor came out of a charismatic church after doing a LOT of study to determine what was right. He can explain the misuse of tongues in today's Pentecostal movement much better than I can, because he's been there, done that.
There is nowhere in the Bible that it shows tongues is anything other than just a foreign language. This being true, it is worthless (as Paul said) because it provides no edification for anybody except the person speaking in the language that he himself can understand. If I stand in your church and speak in "Arabic", how many of your members will understand me. I will edify myself because I have learned the language, but I will not edify anybody else unless I cannot speak English and I have an interpreter as Paul says to do.
The chrismatic churches I have seen very rarely have one person speaking at a time and confusion exists. This is also a clear violation of Paul's admonition.
Most of the part of the Bible the charismatics have to use to say that it is some kind of heavenly language is parts of the Bible where Paul is actually playing down "tongues" as a gift. So, why make this a major doctrine in a church?
Nuff said?...did I hit a nerve?Originally posted by av1611jim:
I beg your pardon. Your statement "It's not any different today" is untrue.
**Everyone is entitled to their own opinon, but I happen to know that it is true!
I was saved in a UPC in a little mountain town in Idaho. God delivered me from that mess by revealing the truth of the Scriptures ya'll twist to justify your unbiblical use of a God given gift to 1st century believers.
Nuff said.
**If you were saved in a UPC, does that mean that the rest that stayed when you were "Delivered" (your words not mine) were/are lost?
Nuff said.
In HIS service;
Jim
MEE
Nuff said?...did I hit a nerve?Originally posted by MEE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by av1611jim:
I beg your pardon. Your statement "It's not any different today" is untrue.
**Everyone is entitled to their own opinon, but I happen to know that it is true!
I was saved in a UPC in a little mountain town in Idaho. God delivered me from that mess by revealing the truth of the Scriptures ya'll twist to justify your unbiblical use of a God given gift to 1st century believers.
Nuff said.
**If you were saved in a UPC, does that mean that the rest that stayed when you were "Delivered" (your words not mine) were/are lost?
Nuff said.
In HIS service;
Jim
MEE
If you say that it is according to my first definition, I would never say for certainty that God could not use that gift today; and I have heard a few stories of it happening to missionaries speaking in foreign lands, but it certainly is rare; especially in the form as described in Acts. If you have actually seen or heard of someone hearing a preacher or speaker in his/her own language, I would certainly like to hear about it. Thank you!
tragic_pizza
New Member
Why don't you reread my post and tell me exactly where I missed your point.
You explained that you wanted answers to why Christians would attack other Christians and I thought I answered that thoroughly.
I told you that attacks on people are not right. But, then I went on to say that I didn't see anything wrong with one stating his/her beliefs very firmly. The Bible itself allows this and that is exactly what Paul did on many occasions.
If I confused you for Pentecostal, I am sorry, that was just based on the earlier posts and my mistake.
Please tell me what, exactly, that I do not understand and what, exactly, does everybody else here not understand, please. </font>[/QUOTE]It took me awhile to find that post, Phillip. One sentence interrupted by a BUT... but yes, you did agree that defaming other Christians was bad.
Too bad the point gets lost in all that desperation to change the discussion from defamation of fellow believers to the theology of tongues.
Maybe I can answer that. It may not be to your liking, but it is the way the debates work. This debate was started with a joke about a Pentecostal and the use of tongues.
To Pentecostals, yes, maybe the joke is in poor taste, but I also made a joke about Baptists and we laugh at and WITH each other.
Now, here is the part you will probably disagree with, but the fact is: The joke started a direction with this thread as to whether or not the Pentecostal style of tongues is real or not. So, the thread evolved into that debate. You are attempting to get an answer to your question which is not quite along the same lines as the thread is moving.
Just as a suggestion, maybe you should start a new thread strictly on the subject of "making fun of" or "defaming" other Christians. I think it might be answered a little more directly.
Most people who post are focused on the specific direction the debate is going and this thread just happened to be moving toward "the gift of tongues as seen by today's Pentecostals". This is a subject which is certainly open for debate here. That's all. Just trying to help.
To Pentecostals, yes, maybe the joke is in poor taste, but I also made a joke about Baptists and we laugh at and WITH each other.
Now, here is the part you will probably disagree with, but the fact is: The joke started a direction with this thread as to whether or not the Pentecostal style of tongues is real or not. So, the thread evolved into that debate. You are attempting to get an answer to your question which is not quite along the same lines as the thread is moving.
Just as a suggestion, maybe you should start a new thread strictly on the subject of "making fun of" or "defaming" other Christians. I think it might be answered a little more directly.
Most people who post are focused on the specific direction the debate is going and this thread just happened to be moving toward "the gift of tongues as seen by today's Pentecostals". This is a subject which is certainly open for debate here. That's all. Just trying to help.
tragic_pizza
New Member
Who made the second post in this thread?
How often have I made the point about defaming and verbally abusing other believers?
It isn't that my point is off the topic, it is that the people I am directly addressing are refusing to acknowledge it.
How often have I made the point about defaming and verbally abusing other believers?
It isn't that my point is off the topic, it is that the people I am directly addressing are refusing to acknowledge it.
Uh, you made the second post on this thread. You said something to the effect of "Yeah, really mature."
I personally don't know how often you have made that point, I have not read this entire thread.
I was simply suggesting that a thread titled on your subject might get people to talking about it because obviously you and I are the only ones still posting here and I certainly don't disagree with you.
I personally don't know how often you have made that point, I have not read this entire thread.
I was simply suggesting that a thread titled on your subject might get people to talking about it because obviously you and I are the only ones still posting here and I certainly don't disagree with you.
Nuff said?...did I hit a nerve?Originally posted by MEE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by av1611jim:
I beg your pardon. Your statement "It's not any different today" is untrue.
**Everyone is entitled to their own opinon, but I happen to know that it is true!
I was saved in a UPC in a little mountain town in Idaho. God delivered me from that mess by revealing the truth of the Scriptures ya'll twist to justify your unbiblical use of a God given gift to 1st century believers.
Nuff said.
**If you were saved in a UPC, does that mean that the rest that stayed when you were "Delivered" (your words not mine) were/are lost?
Nuff said.
In HIS service;
Jim
MEE
No it does NOT mean they were/are lost (your words). It means they are most likey still deceived and still spouting garbage and still twisting Scripture to seem/appear "spritual". It also means that if they are still in that mess then they truly believe what their pastor said. "When you get baptized in the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues it is like adding air-conditioning to your car." What nonsense!!! (BTW, when folks try to add "air-conditioning", I suspect they are fixin' to move where it is HOT !
Secondly, yes you did "hit a nerve". and after 20 years, it is STILL raw and smarting.
Though you may feel it is no different today, you CANNOT prove it Scripturally nor can you prove it experiantially for there is NOT ONE person on earth who can irrefutably show that what happened in Acts 2 has happened anywhere on this globe in this day of confusion amongst christendom. If you think you can, give us the link to the documentation.
In HIS service;
Jim
Brian30755
New Member
I heard an illustration from Ray Comfort (http://www.thewayofthemaster.com) that certainly applies for me concerning this topic:
A young boy is told by his father not to touch the heater because it is hot. As soon as the father leaves the room, the boy places his hand on the heater and, sure enough, it burns him.
A heater "expert" enters the room, and tells the boy that the heater is NOT hot, and produces all sorts of documentation and evidence to prove it.
But no matter what evidence the heater expert produces, the boy is not going to believe him because he has experienced the burning power of the heater for himself.
That's the way it is with being filled with the Holy Spirit and speaking in other tongues. I've experienced it for myself, so no "expert" is going to be able to tell me that it's not "real".
No one can tell me that I'm "faking it", because I know I'm not.
No one can tell me that it is "of the devil" because I don't like Satan and he doesn't like me. In fact, he hates me. He hates me more now that I've been filled with the Holy Spirit, because I have a greater desire to study God's Word, to lead others to Christ, and to praise the Lord for all He's done for me. I do believe that anyone who would dare imply that God's work in me is "of the devil" is guilty of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
Thank you for allowing me to post my comments.
A young boy is told by his father not to touch the heater because it is hot. As soon as the father leaves the room, the boy places his hand on the heater and, sure enough, it burns him.
A heater "expert" enters the room, and tells the boy that the heater is NOT hot, and produces all sorts of documentation and evidence to prove it.
But no matter what evidence the heater expert produces, the boy is not going to believe him because he has experienced the burning power of the heater for himself.
That's the way it is with being filled with the Holy Spirit and speaking in other tongues. I've experienced it for myself, so no "expert" is going to be able to tell me that it's not "real".
No one can tell me that I'm "faking it", because I know I'm not.
No one can tell me that it is "of the devil" because I don't like Satan and he doesn't like me. In fact, he hates me. He hates me more now that I've been filled with the Holy Spirit, because I have a greater desire to study God's Word, to lead others to Christ, and to praise the Lord for all He's done for me. I do believe that anyone who would dare imply that God's work in me is "of the devil" is guilty of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
Thank you for allowing me to post my comments.
Sometimes I think my only gift from God is speaking in tongues - and at times well ok all the time - I get very angry at God about that.
After all who wants to use a valid gift when pretty much no one else uses it properly anymore! and it makes you look like one of the lying pagan worshippers
The gift of tongues exists today - I have yet to see someone else use it properly in the context of a foreign language.
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Tragicpizza - people have posted verse after verse where false doctrine was repeatedly made fun of by God and His prophets
SO one yer argument about making fun of Christians - has been answered - it is appropriate when there is false doctrine involved.
It should be done in love - and I sensed no animosity especially as the last paragraph clearly made it a joke.
The only animosity I feel is yours
Tongues exist - but Pentecostals and most people mess em up. Glossalia IS/ARE NOT tongues.
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So yes mocking nitwits of my own faith or others is completely acceptable - trust me I am going to be using you as a personal example - this will involve me making lots of fun of you repeatedly to an international audience!
Dont worry though you will have about two defenders who knows maybe more - but I will persist in mocking you before God and man.
However I will make an effort to redeem MEE in a token effort that I remember someone with similar board name who defended the truth quite admirably in the past. Im praying its not you MEE but the point is I recall a verse where it mentions private use - PRIVATE use of the gift of tongues where she may be allowed her foolish babbling. Personally I think its not valid - but the possibility exists and so I'll grant her the possibility
HOWEVER IT MEANS THAT THE BABBLING DOES NOT OCCUR IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER in the church in ANY CORPORATE setting.
After all who wants to use a valid gift when pretty much no one else uses it properly anymore! and it makes you look like one of the lying pagan worshippers
The gift of tongues exists today - I have yet to see someone else use it properly in the context of a foreign language.
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Tragicpizza - people have posted verse after verse where false doctrine was repeatedly made fun of by God and His prophets
SO one yer argument about making fun of Christians - has been answered - it is appropriate when there is false doctrine involved.
It should be done in love - and I sensed no animosity especially as the last paragraph clearly made it a joke.
The only animosity I feel is yours
Tongues exist - but Pentecostals and most people mess em up. Glossalia IS/ARE NOT tongues.
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So yes mocking nitwits of my own faith or others is completely acceptable - trust me I am going to be using you as a personal example - this will involve me making lots of fun of you repeatedly to an international audience!
Dont worry though you will have about two defenders who knows maybe more - but I will persist in mocking you before God and man.
However I will make an effort to redeem MEE in a token effort that I remember someone with similar board name who defended the truth quite admirably in the past. Im praying its not you MEE but the point is I recall a verse where it mentions private use - PRIVATE use of the gift of tongues where she may be allowed her foolish babbling. Personally I think its not valid - but the possibility exists and so I'll grant her the possibility
HOWEVER IT MEANS THAT THE BABBLING DOES NOT OCCUR IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER in the church in ANY CORPORATE setting.
tragic_pizza
New Member
So I guess you didn't look at the verses I cited, either, did you? I guess you didn't notice that the only mocking cited was against people who worshipped false gods, and not against brothers and sisters who may be in error?
How many Pentecostals are you praying for? How many are you reaching out to in Christian love?
Get the log out of your eye, and then talk to me.
You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth.
An unsaved person--whether he or she have the name tag Pentecostal or otherwise, is just as unsaved as any heathen or pagan in this world. Unsaved = unsaved.
"The only mocking cited was against people who worshipped false gods." So? What is your point here?
"Not against brothers and sisters who may be in error."
As I pointed out to you previously, we have at least two people involved in this thread who belong to a Pentecostal cult who:
deny the trinity,
believe in baptismal regeneration,
believe that tongues are necessary for salvation,
deny justification by faith,
have some strange concepts of the person of God and Christ,
and a few other unorthodox beliefs.
With a statement of faith like that, I hesitate to call such people saved. One is not saved through water and speaking in tongues. The Bible does not teach that. If you believe otherwise, you are just plain wrong. If right--then demonstrate it through the Scriptures.
Just because one claims the name Christian doesn't mean he/she is one. They may be just as lost as the pagan idol worshiper. What does one have to do to be lost? Nothing.
However a person must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved.
The mocking is against false doctrine. Those involved in such false doctrine usually (but not always) are unsaved.
DHK