Per the Bible: What Is Really the Extent Of man "Free Will?"

[DHK]

Again, ALL of us here on the BB believe one MUST palce personal faith in the jesus of the Bible in order to become part of the redeemed of the Lord...

If you ALL believed that YOU must place YOUR PERSONAL faith in the Jesus of of the Bible, you would not believe that faith is a gift of God. There is the paradox if not contradiction of your belief.

What causes some to accept, others reject, IF Gosd releases prevelient Grace to All men, Desires All men to be saved, and jesus DIED for ALL men?

Define "God releases grace to all men." As a former Catholic, that is what it sounds like, Catholic doctrine. God doesn't release anything. The message has already given. It is called the gospel. It is written in his Word. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by his word. There is no magic dart here. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, works through the Word; the person realizing he is a sinner in need of a Savior, fully understanding the message of the gospel, puts his faith in that gospel message and is saved by Christ and Christ alone.

is it that Men do NOT allow/permit God to save them, thus their wills greater than the Will of God?

Man is made in the image of God, and given a will to choose either good or evil. He can choose to receive Christ or reject him. God does not force the pill of faith down his throat and force him to be saved.

or could it be we fail to see what all of this means from bibical perspective?

Are we blind to the simplicity of the gospel and allow the doctrines of grace, or more specifically Calvinism to cloud a very simple message?

 

[quantumfaith]

What Is Really the Extent Of man "Free Will?"

You'll have to ask the lawyer who offers that service.

Oh my, you really "poured over" that one.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If you ALL believed that YOU must place YOUR PERSONAL faith in the Jesus of of the Bible, you would not believe that faith is a gift of God. There is the paradox if not contradiction of your belief.

What strange caricature of the Doctrines of Grace do you have in your mind that you suppose that we do not believe in the strongest possible way that everyone must place their own personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation? :BangHead: Words fail me! You understand nothing of what we believe!

Steve

 

[DHK]

What strange caricature of the Doctrines of Grace do you have in your mind that you suppose that we do not believe in the strongest possible way that everyone must place their own personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation? :BangHead: Words fail me! You understand nothing of what we believe!

Steve

Then please tell me why I have battled through five threads debating every stripe of Calvinist on here that faith is not and cannot be a gift from God especially concerning the unbeliever, as every Calvinist here believes. Every Calvinist here has stated that. It is as if they want to indoctrinate me with their belief that I must believe with God's faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved--something that is totally absurd.

Five threads on this topic. "Faith Received." If, as stated above--"own personal faith" why the emphasis that faith is not your own but God's gift, a gift of God, not your own, etc., etc., Please read some of the other threads.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Then please tell me why I have battled through five threads debating every stripe of Calvinist on here that faith is not and cannot be a gift from God especially concerning the unbeliever, as every Calvinist here believes. Every Calvinist here has stated that. It is as if they want to indoctrinate me with their belief that I must believe with God's faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved--something that is totally absurd.

Five threads on this topic. "Faith Received." If, as stated above--"own personal faith" why the emphasis that faith is not your own but God's gift, a gift of God, not your own, etc., etc., Please read some of the other threads.

As I say, you simply don't understand. I'm certainly not going to speak for everyone on this board who describes himself as a Calvinist, but of course it is we who have to believe personally on the Lord Jesus Christ. However, the fact is that people simply don't do that, because they are slaves of Satan (Eph 2:1-3) and their foolish hearts are darkened (Rom 1:21; 2Cor 4:4). God the Holy Spirit must shine in their hearts before they will believe, but when He does so shine, they will believe (2Cor 4:6).

Steve

 

[jbh28]

If you ALL believed that YOU must place YOUR PERSONAL faith in the Jesus of of the Bible, you would not believe that faith is a gift of God. There is the paradox if not contradiction of your belief.

There is no contradiction. We do have personal faith in Christ. Faith is a gift of God.

Man is made in the image of God, and given a will to choose either good or evil. He can choose to receive Christ or reject him. God does not force the pill of faith down his throat and force him to be saved.

and we don't believe he "force the pill of faith down" anyone throats or "force" anyone to be saved. Man is made in the image of God, but man sinned and is no longer able to do good. There is nothing good in man because of sin. It's sad when people teach that man has good in him.

Are we blind to the simplicity of the gospel and allow the doctrines of grace, or more specifically Calvinism to cloud a very simple message?

It shouldn't cloud anything. The gospel is the gospel.

 

[DHK]

There is no contradiction. We do have personal faith in Christ. Faith is a gift of God.

No, faith is not a gift of God, and there is not one verse in the NT that says it is. It certainly is not a gift given to the unregenerate or the unsaved. Since when does God give spiritual gifts or the fruit of the Spirit to the unsaved. This is the position that is absurd. It is Calvinism repeated over again and again, and often enough, that even though the Bible doesn't teach it people accept it as truth. Amazing!

and we don't believe he "force the pill of faith down" anyone throats or "force" anyone to be saved.

I never said you did. But the typical Calvinist infers that God does just that. He must give the gift of faith to the unsaved in order for him to be saved, so that man believes with God's faith to be saved!! It is an absurd position.

Man is made in the image of God, but man sinned and is no longer able to do good. There is nothing good in man because of sin. It's sad when people teach that man has good in him.

It is sad when a person takes a sweeping generalization to an extreme, or takes a Scripture out of context.
Answer this:
1. When a mother breastfeeds her infant is that good or bad?
2. When a husband protects his wife, is that good or bad?
3. When a man works an honest job to provide for his family, is that good or bad?

The verse you quote, you quote as a sweeping generalization and use it as a dogmatic truth of all men. It is not meant that way. It is meant this way:

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6)
--All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.
The term righteousnesses are good works that one does to try to merit heaven. That is the context here. There is no good thing that man can do to merit heaven. Man can do good, but he cannot do anything that is good to merit heaven. That is the qualifier. Feeding one's infant is a good thing.

Jesus taught that man can do good things. "If the wicked give good things to their children, how much more will your heavenly Father give to you..."

It shouldn't cloud anything. The gospel is the gospel.

And what comes from the gospel.
Faith comes from hearing, and hearing from the word of God. In other words faith is not the gift of God.

What else about the gospel?
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:16)
--It is the power of God unto salvation. Not Calvinism.

 

[DHK]

As I say, you simply don't understand. I'm certainly not going to speak for everyone on this board who describes himself as a Calvinist, but of course it is we who have to believe personally on the Lord Jesus Christ. However, the fact is that people simply don't do that, because they are slaves of Satan (Eph 2:1-3) and their foolish hearts are darkened (Rom 1:21; 2Cor 4:4). God the Holy Spirit must shine in their hearts before they will believe, but when He does so shine, they will believe (2Cor 4:6).

Steve

I don't disagree with what you have posted.
I disagree with posts like these:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1699896&postcount=31

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1699900&postcount=34

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1699903&postcount=36

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1699891&postcount=27

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1699893&postcount=29

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1699858&postcount=13

 

[MB]

Then please tell me why I have battled through five threads debating every stripe of Calvinist on here that faith is not and cannot be a gift from God.

It stands to reason for me that if Salvation is a gift then the things needed for Salvation must also be a gift. If they weren't, we would be working for our Salvation. Faith is most difficult to understand because one cannot mustar up faith as if it were possible all by himself. He must first be convinced of what he has faith in. Being convinced of a thing with out seeing is what faith is The person who receives this faith by hearing the word received it from where it came from originally. If there was no charge for it then it was a gift because it was most certainly given to him or, her.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Paul must have been a very intelligent person he wrote.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Even loving God is a work of the Law.

You see even though we believe we are justified by His faith and not our own. I also know that we are justified by His righteousness and not our own. We wear His righteousness if we didn't we could never be saved. In that righteousness must also be His faith. We put on His righteousness I believe by surrender and even surrender is credited to God. Because we would have never surredered with out His convincing us and convicting us.
Thus the whole process of Salvation is from God. Other wise it isn't all of God. Man's surrender is when man puts on His righteousness a covering for our inperfections. Of course man still has a choice though it isn't the choosing of Christ Jesus. It's the choosing of rebellion. We do not choose Christ He even said so.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

I do not believe that faith is just dispenced by God. Man has to hear the gospel in order to be convinced of it.
MB

 

[jbh28]

No, faith is not a gift of God, and there is not one verse in the NT that says it is.

Sure there is and you have been given them many times. But if you want to thank yourself for your faith, then go ahead. I'll instead thank God for the faith he gave me.

I never said you did. But the typical Calvinist infers(you probably mean imply) that God does just that. He must give the gift of faith to the unsaved in order for him to be saved, so that man believes with God's faith to be saved!! It is an absurd position.

Is it "absurd" to think that God saves us? No Calvinist, at least not here, believes God forces someone to be saved.

It is sad when a person takes a sweeping generalization to an extreme, or takes a Scripture out of context.

It is

Answer this:
1. When a mother breastfeeds her infant is that good or bad?
2. When a husband protects his wife, is that good or bad?
3. When a man works an honest job to provide for his family, is that good or bad?

As I've stated many many times, unsaved man can do "good" things. Again, total depravity doesn't NOT mean that man is as evil as he can be. He of course doesn't do it as glory to God, so then while the act is good, the man is still not doing good in the eyes of God.

The verse you quote, you quote as a sweeping generalization and use it as a dogmatic truth of all men. It is not meant that way. It is meant this way:

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6)
--All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.
The term righteousnesses are good works that one does to try to merit heaven. That is the context here. There is no good thing that man can do to merit heaven. Man can do good, but he cannot do anything that is good to merit heaven. That is the qualifier. Feeding one's infant is a good thing.

If man does something and doesn't do it to glorify God, he is sinning. He righteous act is "filthy rags" just as the text says.

Jesus taught that man can do good things. "If the wicked give good things to their children, how much more will your heavenly Father give to you..."

Again, you miss the point. man can do "good" things(speaking of the act) but it's worthless. He doesn't do it out of worship to God nor to glorify him, therefore, it's not good. Jesus' point is that there are things that the wicked do that is "good"(speaking of the act). no Calvinist believes that man is as evil as he can be. Hense, straw man - which is why these discussions are so unprofitable because we spend most of the time addressing straw man arguments.

And what comes from the gospel.
Faith comes from hearing, and hearing from the word of God. In other words faith is not the gift of God.

Faith comes from God....it's a gift. Stop taking credit for your faith!
That's the biggest difference. I thank God for my faith that he has given me. You don't and mock at that and claim you made your own faith. Do you understand now? You might want to rethink your "absurd" statements.

btw, faith as a gift from God is no where just a belief of Calvinist. I know plenty of people that are not Calvinist that believe faith is a gift from God. You are actually one of the few that I know that would deny that.

 

[Iconoclast]

Sure there is and you have been given them many times. But if you want to thank yourself for your faith, then go ahead. I'll instead thank God for the faith he gave me.

Is it "absurd" to think that God saves us? No Calvinist, at least not here, believes God forces someone to be saved.
It is
As I've stated many many times, unsaved man can do "good" things. Again, total depravity doesn't NOT mean that man is as evil as he can be. He of course doesn't do it as glory to God, so then while the act is good, the man is still not doing good in the eyes of God.
If man does something and doesn't do it to glorify God, he is sinning. He righteous act is "filthy rags" just as the text says.
Again, you miss the point. man can do "good" things(speaking of the act) but it's worthless. He doesn't do it out of worship to God nor to glorify him, therefore, it's not good. Jesus' point is that there are things that the wicked do that is "good"(speaking of the act). no Calvinist believes that man is as evil as he can be. Hense, straw man - which is why these discussions are so unprofitable because we spend most of the time addressing straw man arguments.
Faith comes from God....it's a gift. Stop taking credit for your faith!
That's the biggest difference. I thank God for my faith that he has given me. You don't and mock at that and claim you made your own faith. Do you understand now? You might want to rethink your "absurd" statements.

btw, faith as a gift from God is no where just a belief of Calvinist. I know plenty of people that are not Calvinist that believe faith is a gift from God. You are actually one of the few that I know that would deny that.

Another good and clear post:applause::applause::thumbs::type:

 

[DHK]

Faith comes from God....it's a gift. Stop taking credit for your faith!
That's the biggest difference. I thank God for my faith that he has given me. You don't and mock at that and claim you made your own faith. Do you understand now? You might want to rethink your "absurd" statements.

btw, faith as a gift from God is no where just a belief of Calvinist. I know plenty of people that are not Calvinist that believe faith is a gift from God. You are actually one of the few that I know that would deny that.

Faith is not a gift of God. Notice you state this error with no Scripture to back it up. That is because there is none. It is plain error stated again and again so that people without thinking mindlessly accept it. That is a pity.
God does not give spiritual gifts and/or the fruit of the Spirit to the unsaved. He never has, does not, and never will. He does not do those things which go against his nature.

Faith is something that we all have. It is an innate quality that man is born with. We are made in God's image. God gave us the ability to reason, to think, to trust, etc.
Even a child knows innately to put his faith in his parents (rather than a stranger), knowing that it is his parents that will provide, protect and nourish him. That is faith, confidence, trust. It is the kind of faith Jesus said we must have if we are to enter his kingdom--the simple faith of a child.

I have faith in my wife. If she says she is going to make supper I believe her. I have confidence in her word, that what she says she will do, she will accomplish it.
And that is what Abraham said about God.

He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. (Romans 4:20-21)
First it says that Abraham was strong in faith. And then it tells us what faith is.
Faith is being persuaded that what one has promised he is able to do.
We exercise faith every day.

We put our confidence or trust in various individuals or even things every day.
(wife or spouse, pastor, teacher, pilot, cab driver, etc.)
--Eventually one or more of them will fail you because they are human, and fallible.
When I put MY faith in God I know that he will never fail me because God is perfect, infallible and never fails.

Faith is not a gift from God. I must believe. I must be confident in God's message that it is true and will indeed save me.

Now, also understand, that faith is not a work. Thus salvation is not of works. Salvation is all of God. It is by grace through faith (our faith). IT (salvation) is the gift of God, and therefore must be received as the free gift of God, and must be received by faith.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
NOT, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ with the gift of God's faith. That doesn't make sense.

 

[DHK]

Another good and clear post:applause::applause::thumbs::type:

It is simply an opinion without any Scripture whatsoever.

 

[webdog]

I guess Christ gave faulty gifts of faith to those he scolded and must have forgotten the abundant gifts of faith that amazed Him when He encountered them.

 

[webdog]

Surely the Holy Spirit could have inspired "the faith given to you has saved you, go in peace" instead of "your faith has saved you".

 

[DHK]

I guess Christ gave faulty gifts of faith to those he scolded and must have forgotten the abundant gifts of faith that amazed Him when He encountered them.

Check the gospels. To all that came to him for healing--whether physical or otherwise--What was His answer?

THY faith hath made thee whole

Go thy way, for thy faith hath made thee whole.

Over and over again, Jesus tells those that believe on him that it was their faith, not Christ's faith that healed them.

 

[Iconoclast]

It is simply an opinion without any Scripture whatsoever.

DHK
you have been answered many times on this with scripture....you just reject the answer


Webdog,
When God gives faith,it is then the persons to exercise...your faith is just fine....you know.....like......work out your salvation with fear and trembling!
Are you going to claim salvation is also inherent in the natural man?
Go ahead...i know you can figure out a way to do it!

 

[webdog]

DHK
you have been answered many times on this with scripture....you just reject the answer


Webdog,
When God gives faith,it is then the persons to exercise...your faith is just fine....you know.....like......work out your salvation with fear and trembling!
Are you going to claim salvation is also inherent in the natural man?
Go ahead...i know you can figure out a way to do it!

You never dissapoint...you can always be counted on to produce a red herring.

 

[DHK]

DHK
you have been answered many times on this with scripture....you just reject the answer

You mean like on the previous page when someone used Rom.12:3, a verse which specifically speaks of faith as a spiritual gift for believers only. Why would anyone take that verse out of context, a verse that refers to spiritual gifts given to believers only, and then claim that this backs up their belief that God gives "the gift of faith" to the unregenerate or unsaved???????????????????
Ludicrous! Absolutely ludicrous.

 

[webdog]

Based on iconoclasts post above I guess we can add weak gift of faith if it is dependant on man needing to "work it out". What happened to the view of sovereignty when it comes to faith?

In addition if it is not our faith that is counted as righteousness the converse is equally true...it is not OUR lack of faith that condemns per John 3:18