Per the Bible: What Is Really the Extent Of man "Free Will?"

[webdog]

Let's add "absurd" to the equation. God commands you to use the incomplete gift He gives (you have to "work it out, you know)...but doesn't give it to everyone...yet requires everyone to use this gift He may or may not have given to you.

I wonder if He had such scenarios in mind when He inspired "let us reason together".

 

[jbh28]

It is simply an opinion without any Scripture whatsoever.

We've given plenty of Scripture many times over. Obviously, you refuse to listen to them and want to take credit for your own faith.

 

[jbh28]

Surely the Holy Spirit could have inspired "the faith given to you has saved you, go in peace" instead of "your faith has saved you".

If it's a gift, it becomes mine. So yes, it's my faith that I have received from God.

 

[webdog]

We've given plenty of Scripture many times over. Obviously, you refuse to listen to them and want to take credit for your own faith.

We don't take credit for it, God credits us.

"Abraham believed...and it was CREDITED TO HIM as righteousness"

 

[jbh28]

Another good and clear post:applause::applause::thumbs::type:

Thanks. It's sad how much some are so adamant to give themselves credit for their faith and mock you and me for giving God credit for our faith.

 

[jbh28]

We don't take credit for it, God credits us.

"Abraham believed...and it was CREDITED TO HIM as righteousness"

So then you will admit that the ability to believe(gift for faith) comes from God? you know, this isn't a Calvinist only belief. As I stated earlier, I know many people that are not Calvinist that believe faith is a gift of God.

 

[webdog]

If it's a gift, it becomes mine. So yes, it's my faith that I have received from God.

So what are you arguing, thats exactly what we belive. The ability to have faith is a human trait God created. as life itself is a gift, so is everthing it encompasses

Are you taking credit for it? This should answer your above question as well.

 

[jbh28]

So what are you arguing, thats exactly what we belive. The ability to have faith is a human trait God created. as life itself is a gift, so is everthing the it encompasses Are you taking credit for it?

Never said it wasn't my faith. I just said that my faith was a gift from God. DHK says that his faith wasn't a gift from God.

 

[webdog]

Never said it wasn't my faith. I just said that my faith was a gift from God. DHK says that his faith wasn't a gift from God.

You are using this "faith gift" as some supernatural gift only given to a few. Faith is faith, it is the object of faith that saves. Salvific faith comes by hearing, not gifting. The unregenerate have the ability to have faith, in fact Acts 17:26-27 states they were placed perfectly in history and goegraphically to use their faith and "perhaps find Him although He is not far from each one of us" (Paul speaking to unregenerate pantheists who would not be deemed to have this gifted saving faith you believe in)

 

[jbh28]

You are using this "faith gift" as some supernatural gift only given to a few. Faith is faith, it is the object of faith that saves. Salvific faith comes by hearing, not gifting. The unregenerate have the ability to have faith, in fact Acts 17:26-27 states they were placed perfectly in history and goegraphically to use their faith and "perhaps find Him although He is not far from each one of us" (Paul speaking to unregenerate pantheists who would not be deemed to have this gifted saving faith you believe in)

The gift is because while yes, we can believe in things, our sins blinds us to God and therefore will not put our faith in him. So the gift of faith is referring to us being able to believe God. No, it's not given to all. God isn't required to give it to all. God isn't required to save all(and he doesn't per both our theologies).

 

[Iconoclast]

Thanks. It's sad how much some are so adamant to give themselves credit for their faith and mock you and me for giving God credit for our faith.

JBH.

It seems like they confuse everything because they do not have a dead Adam, just slightly wounded so he still has full ability just needs an assist.

Man does ; repent, believe, exercise saving faith,work out our salvation,etc

but as you have posted in the words of Jonah...salvation is of the Lord.

whenthey make the false robot,puppet comments,it shows a lack of understanding that God enables us to do all he commands us to....like when he commanded the man, stretch forth thy hand, or pick up they bed and walk,
or Lazarus come forth...each one did as they were commanded,as God enabled them to......did they obey...yes after God gave them the ability.

DHK says...God never gives a gift to unsaved men.....all sheep get the gift of regeneration,saving faith, eternal life.....they go from unsaved to saved by the gift of God.

Webdog just posted this;

Let's add "absurd" to the equation. God commands you to use the incomplete gift He gives (you have to "work it out, you know)...but doesn't give it to everyone...yet requires everyone to use this gift He may or may not have given to you.

I wonder if He had such scenarios in mind when He inspired "let us reason together".

1]there is no incomplete gift.

2]that is correct he does not give it to everyone

3]all men are responsible to believe...God does not have to give any gift to anyone...in mercy He saves a multitude by His Holy and Wise choice.
He can choose one, none, a dozen or multitudes.that is His business, his choice.
4] Isa.1 :18 is spoken to Israel who was already a typically redeemed people, they were being called to obey the terms of the covenant that they already said they would keep....it is not a gospel invitation..it is a call to repent of their covenant breaking......only the ELECT remnant was saved.

 

[DHK]

JBH.

It seems like they confuse everything because they do not have a dead Adam, just slightly wounded so he still has full ability just needs an assist.

That really stumps you doesn't it?
Adam sinned. Adam was dead. Though dead, Adam communicated and talked with God. How is that possible? Being dead does not rule out the possibility of responding to God or even seeking him. Being dead simply means one is separated from God by sin. The problem is sin. The sin problem needs to be removed that man may be reconciled to God. Reconciliation brings life.

Man does ; repent, believe, exercise saving faith,work out our salvation,etc

Faith is faith. Why do you say "saving faith." Is there an "unsaving faith"? Faith is confidence in the word of another, in this case confidence in the word of Christ--the message of the gospel that it has the power to save (Romans 1:16). Is faith a gift of God? No.
Where does faith come from?
It comes from hearing the word of God (Romans 10:17), not as a gift from God.

but as you have posted in the words of Jonah...salvation is of the Lord.

There is no one on this board who would deny that, "salvation is of the Lord."

whenthey make the false robot,puppet comments,it shows a lack of understanding that God enables us to do all he commands us to....like when he commanded the man, stretch forth thy hand, or pick up they bed and walk,
or Lazarus come forth...each one did as they were commanded,as God enabled them to......did they obey...yes after God gave them the ability.

What other conclusion can one logically make. Think it through.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
--That was the command given to the unsaved Philippian jailer (Acts 16:31)
--But you say "Believe" (have faith) must be from God, that faith is a gift of God. Therefore Paul should have said:
"Have faith (with God's faith) on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved."
--The Bible never takes such a position. And never is such a concept taught. You have provided no Scripture. I give you Scripture; you give me Calvinistic philosophy.

DHK says...God never gives a gift to unsaved men.....all sheep get the gift of regeneration,saving faith, eternal life.....they go from unsaved to saved by the gift of God.

False. That statement is making salvation into a salvation by works.
Here is how it works:

FAITH + 0 = SALVATION. This is the truth.
Salvation is by faith and faith alone. It is called sola fide.
Again:
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (Romans 5:1)

Your equation wrongly put it this way:
Regeneration + Saving faith + eternal life etc. = Salvation.
No more do we have sola fide but rather salvation by works.
The work of regeneration plus the work of faith plus whatever else you have added into the equation as a requirement for salvation. You have made both regeneration and faith into works and requirements.

I do not believe faith is a work, and I do not believe regeneration precedes salvation. I don't make salvation into a works based salvation such as the COC and apparently you.

 

[Robert Snow]

That really stumps you doesn't it?
Adam sinned. Adam was dead. Though dead, Adam communicated and talked with God. How is that possible? Being dead does not rule out the possibility of responding to God or even seeking him. Being dead simply means one is separated from God by sin.

I wonder if Iconoclast will ever address this? So far all he's done is avoid it!

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK,

That really stumps you doesn't it?
Adam sinned. Adam was dead. Though dead, Adam communicated and talked with God. How is that possible? Being dead does not rule out the possibility of responding to God or even seeking him. Being dead simply means one is separated from God by sin. The problem is sin. The sin problem needs to be removed that man may be reconciled to God. Reconciliation brings life.

Quote:

DHK... I agree with your last part about sin ,and reconciliation.
But here in your reply is the answer that you post but do not see

Being dead simply means one is separated from God by sin

yes it does ,agreed.....but I believe this affects the whole man and that as eph 2 says , he is alienanted from the life of God...he can be religious and dead at the same time, because religion is in the flesh.
salvation is spiritual

you asked;

Faith is faith. Why do you say "saving faith." Is there an "unsaving faith"?

Good question Dhk...yes there is.
This list is from The Baptist Catechism with Commentary, By W.R.Downing
used by permission

also: the following are examples of faith as personal, saving
belief: Matt. 18:6; Mk. 1:15; Jn. 1:12–13; 9:35–38; 11:27; 12:39–41;
20:31; Acts 4:4; 8:36–37; 13:39, 48; 14:1; 18:27; Rom. 3:21–23, 27–
31; 4:11, 24; 10:13–14, 17; 1 Cor. 1:21; 2:1–5; Phil. 1:29; 1 Thess.
2:13; 2 Thess. 1:10; 1 Tim. 1:16; 4:3, 10; Heb. 4:3; 10:38–39; 11:1–
40; Jas. 1:2–4; 1 Pet. 1:5, 7; 2:7; 1 Jn., 2:23; 5:5, 13.
The following are examples of “the faith” as connoting the doctrinal
content or the substantial teaching of Christianity, the content of
Divine revelation which the faithful are to believe: Acts 6:7; 13:8;
14:22; 16:5; Rom. 1:5; 10:8; 14:1; 1 Cor. 16:13; 2 Cor. 13:5; Gal. 1:23;
Eph. 4:5, 13; Col. 1:23; 2:5; 1 Tim. 6:21; 2 Tim. 4:7; Titus 1:4, 13;
Jude 3.
The following are examples of a defective or temporary “faith” or
“belief” which is distinct from true, saving faith: Lk. 8:13; Jn. 2:23–25;
8:30–59; 12:42; Acts 8:13–24; 26:27–28; Heb. 6:1–9; 10:38–39; Jas.
2:14–26.

When considering the nature of saving faith, we must carefully note that
not all faith is saving faith. About this, the Scriptures are very clear (Matt.
13:5–6, 20–21; Lk. 8:14; Jn. 2:23–25). The attitude of many within modern
evangelical Christianity is that all faith is saving faith, and that a person’s
profession of faith is to be taken at face value and never questioned. Further, it
is assumed that saving faith is synonymous with mere human trust, and that
such faith is, indeed, the product of our own personalities. Every person, it is
assumed, has the faith to believe in Christ, the only issue is where he directs
such faith
Second, there is a merely intellectual faith (1 Cor. 15:1–2; Jas. 2:19). It is
possible to have such a bare faith, yet to “believe in vain” [to no purpose].
This is a faith which is isolated from Scripture and a conversion experience
with its subsequent life. This may describe many who only have a momentary
or isolated religious experience. This seems to be the case of those “sown
among thorns” who, although retaining their profession “bring no fruit to
perfection” (Lk. 8:14). This may well describe many nominal professing
Christians.
Third, there is a temporary faith (Matt. 13:20–21; Jn. 2:23–25), which
may be either merely intellectual or emotional, based upon something seen or
felt, but not solidly grounded in the Scriptures. It was so with the people in Jn.
2:23–25, who gawked at the sights, but their hearts remained unchanged. The
same was true of the stony ground hearers who endure in their profession for
only a short time (Matt. 13:5–6, 20–21).

 

[Iconoclast]

I wonder if Iconoclast will ever address this? So far all he's done is avoid it!

I am here to help Robert, my previous post addresses this a bit.
Robert let me expand it for you.
All idolatry is dead men being religious...romans1

That is why salvation is God given...can you see it!

God had to come and tell us so.

11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

27John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Robert.....I will never avoid any question here. I have no secrets. Please read the previous post...It says it really well and sorry AIC.....but it is loaded with scripture verses...not calvin quotes! Sorry to disappoint you.

Robert...as i have seen you speak often against...calvinism....can you name some books of calvinistic teaching that you have read, and what are the 5 things you find hardest to believe about the teaching.

 

[Robert Snow]

I am here to help Robert, my previous post addresses this a bit.
Robert let me expand it for you.
All idolatry is dead men being religious...romans1

That is why salvation is God given...can you see it!

God had to come and tell us so.





Robert.....I will never avoid any question here. I have no secrets. Please read the previous post...It says it really well and sorry AIC.....but it is loaded with scripture verses...not calvin quotes! Sorry to disappoint you.

Robert...as i have seen you speak often against...calvinism....can you name some books of calvinistic teaching that you have read, and what are the 5 things you find hardest to believe about the teaching.

I don't agree with you conclusions, but I thank you for your response.

 

[DHK]

Good question Dhk...yes there is.

I am glad for your reply Icono.

When considering the nature of saving faith, we must carefully note that not all faith is saving faith. About this, the Scriptures are very clear (Matt.13:5–6, 20–21; Lk. 8:14; Jn. 2:23–25). The attitude of many within modern evangelical Christianity is that all faith is saving faith, and that a person’s profession of faith is to be taken at face value and never questioned.

A "profession of faith" is different than faith.
Faith is faith. It is confidence in the word of another. It is trust. We exercise it every day. My children trust me; put their faith in me; put faith in their mother. I put faith in my pastor, in the police, etc.

What is important is the object of one's faith.
In Christianity the object of our faith is Jesus Christ.
He is the only one that can save. He paid the penalty for our sins.
There is no other person that has met the demands for the payment of our sins then Christ. He alone can save. He is the God-man. He is the object of my faith.

I may put as the object of my faith a mechanic in order that my car get fixed; but the object of my faith in reference to my eternal salvation had better be Christ.
Either way faith is faith. It is confidence, trust--the confidence that one has in the word of another. The confidence that we can have in the Word of God that Christ indeed does save!

Further, it is assumed that saving faith is synonymous with mere human trust, and that such faith is, indeed, the product of our own personalities.

But it is. God doesn't inject us with some supernatural faith.

Every person, it is assumed, has the faith to believe in Christ, the only issue is where he directs such faith

That is correct. It is the object of our faith that is important. The Bible does not teach that God gives spiritual gifts such as faith, or the fruit of the Spirit, such as faith, to the unsaved. That is not taught in the Bible.

Second, there is a merely intellectual faith (1 Cor. 15:1–2; Jas. 2:19). It is possible to have such a bare faith, yet to “believe in vain” [to no purpose].
All faith is intellectual unless you belong to another religion like Hinduism where you must operate on blind faith. For example, to bathe in the Ganges River, believing it will wash away your sins, is blind faith. There is no basis in fact, no reason to believe it will. Christianity is based on fact--the fact of the resurrection that demonstrates the claims of Jesus Christ that he is God, and what he said is true. In this way it is an intellectual faith; it is not blind. It is based on reason. If faith is not based on facts it is not worth a faith to believe. Do you believe the moon is made out of green cheese? Have faith! Why not? Because it is not based on facts! It is unreasonable to believe any such thing. Faith is always intellectual; always based on facts. Our faith is based on the facts of the gospel, and that the gospel can be verified.

Faith is different than knowledge.
I know that Nero was the emperor of Rome at the time of Christ. That is knowledge not faith.
How do I know that he was emperor? I was taught that he was. My history book told me. Therefore I put my faith in the words of the author of the history book that Nero was the emperor at the time of Christ. The object of my faith is the word of the author of the book. But that has to do with history, not with my eternal welfare. Faith is faith; confidence in the word of another.

Faith as used in James is "The Christian Faith". It is not faith as a verb but as a noun. It is the faith that we believe. If our Faith, our Baptist Faith, does not have works, then is our Faith, our Christianity, really genuine. See the difference. It is not speaking of faith, as in faith in Christ; but rather our faith, as in the faith that we contend for.

This is a faith which is isolated from Scripture and a conversion experience with its subsequent life. This may describe many who only have a momentary or isolated religious experience. This seems to be the case of those “sown among thorns” who, although retaining their profession “bring no fruit to perfection” (Lk. 8:14). This may well describe many nominal professing Christians.

If this is true then it is the object of their faith that has been misplaced.
If a person has put their faith in Christ their lives will be changed. Christ, by the power of his Holy Spirit will change a person; he/she will become a person in Christ. A "decision" made on behalf of a parent or someone else is just that, "a decision" made for self, parent, etc. But the object of the faith was not Christ. It was for someone else.

Third, there is a temporary faith (Matt. 13:20–21; Jn. 2:23–25), which may be either merely intellectual or emotional, based upon something seen or felt, but not solidly grounded in the Scriptures. It was so with the people in Jn. 2:23–25, who gawked at the sights, but their hearts remained unchanged. The same was true of the stony ground hearers who endure in their profession for only a short time (Matt. 13:5–6, 20–21).

Faith is faith. If a person put their faith in Christ, they are a new creature in Christ, no questions asked. Christ doesn't lie. If they didn't put their faith in Christ, then perhaps they put their faith in some other object. They can pretend, be a false teacher, etc. But a person who has put their faith in Christ is not temporary. He has eternal life. The object of one's faith must be Christ and nothing else but Christ.

The faith is not some mystical supernatural gift from God. It is man's ability to comprehend the gospel. Faith comes from hearing and hearing the word of God. The Holy Spirit works through the Word of God convicting one of sin, showing him that he is a sinner and in need of a Savior. It is the message of the gospel; that Christ alone can save. Salvation is by faith and faith alone. sola fide. One needs both the word and the Holy Spirit working through it.

 

[humblethinker]

A "profession of faith" is different than faith.
Faith is faith.
...
It is based on reason. If faith is not based on facts it is not worth a faith to believe.
...
Faith as used in James is "The Christian Faith". It is not faith as a verb but as a noun. It is the faith that we believe. If our Faith, our Baptist Faith, does not have works, then is our Faith, our Christianity, really genuine. See the difference. It is not speaking of faith, as in faith in Christ; but rather our faith, as in the faith that we contend for.
...
The faith is not some mystical supernatural gift from God. It is man's ability to comprehend the gospel. Faith comes from hearing and hearing the word of God.
...

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: