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Perfect Knowledge
- Thread starter MorseOp
- Start date
1. "Declaring the end from the beginning" A simple reading of this would not lead one to think that this is describing only SOME events that God is saying he will make happen, but rather simply that God, from ancient times, can declare things that are "yet to come" as the verse says. He "from the beginning" can declare what the end will be. There is not textual reason to limit this to only SOME things.
2. Perfect knowledge. If as you say, "God is not mistaken about anything." How does this fit with your belief that God in essense admits to making a mistake by creating mankind once he sees their wickedness, which you say he did not know would happen? Does that still fit with "perfect knowledge"?
Yes, I agree, we should not rely upon what men have invented,but rely upon what the text actually says.
1. God desires all men to be saved, not all kinds of men to be saved.
2. God says now I know, not I knew already.
3. Christ became the propitiation for the whole world, not the propitiation of the elect only.
4. God sets before us the choice of life or death, not God sets life only before the elect and death only before the non-elect.
I could go on and on.
freeatlast
New Member
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Actually the verse reads that God declares the end from the beginning, not God has declared the end and everything leading up to the end, i.e. exhaustive determination. To read that into the text is unsound. The this truth is limited by what we have been told He declared, i.e. specifics found in scripture. To claim more than this is simply an argument from silence.
12 Strings, why did you say my position is God makes mistakes. I have specifically posted that God does not make mistakes. Why create a strawman to knock down? Recall God's knowledge is perfect, i.e. faultless. Knowing something does not preclude an emotional reaction when the thing known is considered. I know my earthly father passed away. But when something brings him to mind, I am sorry death has separated us. In Genesis 6:6, God is sorry concerning the wickedness of man, but that does not suggest God did not know the fallen nature of mankind, or that God would illustrate salvation through Noah's ark.
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So just to Clarify, you believe that...
(1) "A person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
and...
(2) "one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
and...
(3) "the doers of the law who will be justified."
and...
(4) "we know that a person is not justified1 by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ"
And rather than seek a logical synthesis of these passages, your response to someone asking questions about these verses would be...
The problem is that God gives lots of "specifics found in scripture." For example:
-Amos 3:6b - Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it?
If Assyrians destroy Israel, how could that happen unless the Lord has done it? If American's drop a bomb on Hiroshima, Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it?
12 Strings, why did you say my position is God makes mistakes. I have specifically posted that God does not make mistakes. [/QUOTE]
You do not call it a mistake, but do you not believe that a situation arises which causes God to change his previous plan, a plan which, had he know about the particular situation, he would have made a different, better plan? A plan that would have been more perfect if his knowledge had included that particular knowledge?
Take Genesis 50:20 - "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."
...You can read into that that God saw what Joseph's brothers did and decided to make the best of a bad situation...but that is, as you say, reading into the text things that aren't there. A simpler reading would admit that God actually planned for Joseph's brothers to treat him like scum and sell him into slavery. Would you say this was a change in God's plan that led to Joseph's position in Egypt, or that the sin of his brothers was part of God's plan before they even grew up, or maybe were even born?
freeatlast
New Member
Yes, absolutely. The Trinity cannot be explained with logic but I believe that teaching. Man's logic is fleeting and very foolish. I simply believe what the scripture says and understand it within the context it is given.
This is why it is easy for me to hold to absolute election and free will at the same time and neither ruling over the other. I do not need an explanation to believe what the bible teaches. I know of no passage that suggests we are to approach the truth with human logic but I do know of scripture that speak of childlike faith.
Now let me repeat my question to you.
Are you saying that God ordains/declairs all sin?In other words did God in eternity past predestine/ordain every single event and act that would take place in history?
Please consider this passaage when you explain what I asked.
Jere. 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through [the fire] unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
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NOT 12 Strings, but would say that God knows ALl that will ACTUALLY hapen all times/places from right now until time is no more, in the eldless state!
Some of those evens he directly will cause to happen, others he permitted, but knows ALL that ever shall be done!
freeatlast
New Member
Some have formed that belief and some haven't. There is no scripture that can be pointed to which makes it absolutely clear. If a person holds what you say it is because of choice, not clear biblical evidence. It is like age of accountability. There is no clear biblical evidence for it, but many hold to it. So you are stating what you believe not what the bible teaches.
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We can disagree on IF God determines/caused all thing , having JUST a single Will, or else he has both a dterminitive/permissive Wills, but NONE can show biblcal support for God NOT knowing all things perfectly!
freeatlast
New Member
No, nohting you stated can be proven by scrpture.
The mainstream view is God either causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. In your verse, the idea is if the Lord's prophets foretell a calamity will befall rebellious Israel, then when calamity comes, should the rebellious not understand the Lord has caused it?
Lets see what Amos 3:7 says, Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets. Applying the same out of context reasoning you employed, I could claim God does not cause anything unless it is specifically prophesied in scripture.
Exhaustive determinism is false doctrine. But since God either causes or allows everything that comes to pass, we should take heed of what happens and live our lives accordingly, i.e. when calamity comes, consider God as our refuge, and when blessings come, consider God as the source and be thankful.
Van said:
12 Strings said:
Why do you continue to make up and post completely false charges. No I do not believe when God "changes His mind" He is coming up with a better plan because He was "blind sided." God has told us, i.e. specifically revealed in very plain words of scripture, why He relents or takes this action and not that action. Now take a passage from Jonah where God says in 40 days I will destroy Nineveh. And then God "changes His mind" and does not destroy Nineveh. God knew that the people were capable of hearing and responding to His prophet - something Calvinism denies. So when God sent his warning, He knew they could repent or not, and so His "change of mind" simply revealed His immutable justice.
12 Strings said:
Again, no!!! Why attribute to me what scripture does not teach!!! God allows all sorts of evil to occur, but in a general non-specific sense, desiring that fallen mankind would choose to stay on the godly path. But, God also intervenes and creates circumstances to bring about an outcome He desires, and one of these was tossing Joseph into that well. Thus "God meant it for good."
In summary, there is absolutely no support in scripture for exhaustive determinism.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
:thumbs::thumbsup::thumbs::thumbsup:
God is not the author of sin, so God does not predestine or cause sin. But sometimes He arranges sin to accomplish His purpose, i.e. Joseph being tossed in the well. In these cases, where God arranged specifically for a person or persons to "sin" I do not think God holds them accountable for the sin God arranged, because that would be unjust. Calvinism holds the opposite view, God causes men to sin, then punishes them for the sin He causes. Not how my Bible reads....
Your verse, Matt. 10:29 is non-germane, having to do with God's knowledge of His creation. The issue is does God predestine sin, making Him the author of sin. My understanding of scripture is specific, He does not!!!!!
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God has a Will, Nothing happens that he does not know, and he is in control over history, that he predetines all things after His own good pleasure/purposes...
he knows all things...
What cannot be proven?
That's not what God says in Jeremiah.
Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
The Jews were sacrificing their children to idols, God said he did not command it. The word "ordain" by definition means to command, so God did not ordain this sin. God said this sin did not come into his mind.
God said this three times in Jeremiah, he also said this sin did not come into his heart.
Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.
If God did not command this sin, and neither did it come into his mind or heart, then how could this sin be ordained by God?
Please answer this question.
God does NOT determine all things that happen, some he does, some he allows to happen...
Not being in His mind makes perfect sense, as He would NOT even be able to have thoughts involving ordering sin to be commited!
he knows ALl things that will evr come to pass, and what could have happened, but would NOT know things such as dterming sin acts, for not in His very nature!