Perfect Knowledge

[freeatlast]

Read what I wrote.

I did but I am sorry it is no help. There is no reason for God to say He changed His mind when He did not.

 

[MorseOp]

I did but I am sorry it is no help. There is no reason for God to say He changed His mind when He did not.

I suggest acquainting yourself with Psalm 110:4; Malachi 3:6.

I brought up the term "anthropomorphism" earlier. In theology an anthropomorphism is ascribing a human, animal, or earthly characteristic to God for effect. It works in a similar way to a parable. If you take a literal approach to scripture then you must agree that Exodus 32:14 teaches that God can change His mind. Never mind the theological crisis that accompanies a sovereign and omniscient God that can change His mind. You are compelled to conclude that He can change His mind. Maintaining that same literal approach to scripture you must conclude that Jesus is an actual door (John 10:7); a lamb (John 1:29); and a loaf of bread (John 6:35). If you are going to be true to your principle of interpretation (hermeneutic) you cannot switch between literal and figurative.

The fact is that God changing His mind is an anthropomorphic statement. In Exodus God knew (as well as Moses) how His intended audience would react. By using a common reference they would be able to understand. That is the same reason for the anthropomorphic statements in John. They make it easier for the intended audience to comprehend the real point of the story.

What if God really could change His mind? Well, it creates a crisis for the attribute of omniscience. It opens the way for men like the late Clark Pinnock, who was one of the leading advocates of open theism. Open theists believe that God offers a second chance to those who die in their sins. God is willing to forget and forgive their sins if they confess Christ after death. The belief that God can really change His mind begins and ends with a small view of God. It turns God into someone who can be influenced. It makes God dependent on man. Job found out, quite rudely, that God is completely in control and needs nothing from His creation (Job 38).

 

[MorseOp]

You are forgiven, all Calvinists retreat to questioning my character and qualifications, because they are unable to defend their doctrine from scripture.

You are rude and abrasive. If other people are recognizing that character flaw, and calling you on it, then perhaps it is true.

I have defended my position(s), from scripture, more than a few times. I notice that many of those who you accuse of not defending their doctrine from scripture have actually done so. You simply refuse to acknowledge it. So, you are either lying or you lack the ability to recognize a biblically based argument. You feel this need to insult the people you debate. Why is that? I am sure you were raised with manners. Why do you choose to throw them out the window in a discussion board? You are not alone by the way. There are some on the Calvinist side who are just as rude and abrasive. I cringe when I read their posts.

 

[freeatlast]

I suggest acquainting yourself with Psalm 110:4; Malachi 3:6.

I brought up the term "anthropomorphism" earlier. In theology an anthropomorphism is ascribing a human, animal, or earthly characteristic to God for effect. It works in a similar way to a parable. If you take a literal approach to scripture then you must agree that Exodus 32:14 teaches that God can change His mind. Never mind the theological crisis that accompanies a sovereign and omniscient God that can change His mind. You are compelled to conclude that He can change His mind. Maintaining that same literal approach to scripture you must conclude that Jesus is an actual door (John 10:7); a lamb (John 1:29); and a loaf of bread (John 6:35). If you are going to be true to your principle of interpretation (hermeneutic) you cannot switch between literal and figurative.

The fact is that God changing His mind is an anthropomorphic statement. In Exodus God knew (as well as Moses) how His intended audience would react. By using a common reference they would be able to understand. That is the same reason for the anthropomorphic statements in John. They make it easier for the intended audience to comprehend the real point of the story.

What if God really could change His mind? Well, it creates a crisis for the attribute of omniscience. It opens the way for men like the late Clark Pinnock, who was one of the leading advocates of open theism. Open theists believe that God offers a second chance to those who die in their sins. God is willing to forget and forgive their sins if they confess Christ after death. The belief that God can really change His mind begins and ends with a small view of God. It turns God into someone who can be influenced. It makes God dependent on man. Job found out, quite rudely, that God is completely in control and needs nothing from His creation (Job 38).

First off the only reason someone might feel there is a theological crisis for God to change His mind is because they have developed a theology that is contrary to God. Those two passages have nothing to do with God changing His mind. The Mal. passage is about His character, that never changes. The Psalm passage is saying that when He gives His word He never goes back on it.
God who cannot be tempted and cannot die and is not flesh and blood figured out how to be tempted, die, and be flesh and blood so He can also figure out how to change His mind and remain all that He is. I hold that believing He can change His mind opens the understanding of the greatness of God. We have a God who dare not violate His justice but to be God also must not violate His mercy and figured out how to do both. This same God who cannot be swayed can change His mind as scripture says He has. Just because He has not told us how this works does not negate the scripture. Deut 29:29
While I respect learned men, I think that we can sometimes become so educated that we lose our childlike faith.

 

[Winman]

Calvinism cannot accommodate a God that can change his mind, their system will fall apart. Not only is man locked in stone according to Calvinism, so is God.

The scriptures tell us repeatedly that God repented or changed his mind. He repented he had made man in the days of Noah and destroyed the world. He repented when he said he would overthrow Nineveh in 40 days. When the people repented in sackcloth and ashes, God repented of overthrowing the city.

Calvinists can't handle this, they cannot deal with the fact that God would respond to men's actions. Nevertheless, this is exactly what the scriptures tell us.

Calvinists will take offense, but their concept of God is no different from an idol made of stone.

God is a person, he is not made of stone.

 

[MorseOp]

Calvinism cannot accommodate a God that can change his mind, their system will fall apart. Not only is man locked in stone according to Calvinism, so is God.

Calvinists cannot accommodate God at all. God is God. He accommodates Himself. Our responsibility is to obey Him.

The scriptures tell us repeatedly that God repented or changed his mind. He repented he had made man in the days of Noah and destroyed the world. He repented when he said he would overthrow Nineveh in 40 days. When the people repented in sackcloth and ashes, God repented of overthrowing the city.

I do not deny the passages that state God relented or God changed His mind. That is how it works out in human events. But within the sovereign mind of God, and according to His will, He never changes His mind. You would have us believe that God is influenced by human events, but the Bible tells us He does all things after the counsel of His own will (Eph. 1:11). So, what seems to be God changing His mind has actually been part of His will all along.

Calvinists can't handle this, they cannot deal with the fact that God would respond to men's actions. Nevertheless, this is exactly what the scriptures tell us.

We can handle it quite fine, thank you. We deal quite well with the fact that God does respond to the actions of men, but none of these actions occur outside of His omniscience. His reactions have also been predestined. He is God. How could He act differently?

And if you are believing exactly what the scriptures tell you, then do you believe (as I wrote to Benjamin) that Jesus is actually a door, a sheep, and a loaf of bread? The Bible refers to Him thus, so therefore it must be so.

Calvinists will take offense, but their concept of God is no different from an idol made of stone.

No offense taken. I simply recognize your statement as grossly inaccurate. God is the most supreme of living beings. He is sovereign over all things and He is completely satisfied with Himself. He has no need for men. This is not Jerry McGuire. We do not complete Him. He completes us.

God is a person, he is not made of stone.

Thank you for the Monty Python reference.

 

[Iconoclast]

Calvinists cannot accommodate God at all. God is God. He accommodates Himself. Our responsibility is to obey Him.



I do not deny the passages that state God relented or God changed His mind. That is how it works out in human events. But within the sovereign mind of God, and according to His will, He never changes His mind. You would have us believe that God is influenced by human events, but the Bible tells us He does all things after the counsel of His own will (Eph. 1:11). So, what seems to be God changing His mind has actually been part of His will all along.



We can handle it quite fine, thank you. We deal quite well with the fact that God does respond to the actions of men, but none of these actions occur outside of His omniscience. His reactions have also been predestined. He is God. How could He act differently?

And if you are believing exactly what the scriptures tell you, then do you believe (as I wrote to Benjamin) that Jesus is actually a door, a sheep, and a loaf of bread? The Bible refers to Him thus, so therefore it must be so.



No offense taken. I simply recognize your statement as grossly inaccurate. God is the most supreme of living beings. He is sovereign over all things and He is completely satisfied with Himself. He has no need for men. This is not Jerry McGuire. We do not complete Him. He completes us.



Thank you for the Monty Python reference.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Winman]

Calvinists cannot accommodate God at all. God is God. He accommodates Himself. Our responsibility is to obey Him.

And God himself tells us that he has repented or changed his mind several times in the scriptures. Why don't you simply believe what God says of himself?

I do not deny the passages that state God relented or God changed His mind. That is how it works out in human events. But within the sovereign mind of God, and according to His will, He never changes His mind. You would have us believe that God is influenced by human events, but the Bible tells us He does all things after the counsel of His own will (Eph. 1:11). So, what seems to be God changing His mind has actually been part of His will all along.

But you do deny these scriptures, you attempt to explain it away. If God never changes his mind, he could have said so, but the scriptures clearly tell us God changed his mind several times.

We can handle it quite fine, thank you. We deal quite well with the fact that God does respond to the actions of men, but none of these actions occur outside of His omniscience. His reactions have also been predestined. He is God. How could He act differently?

God's reactions have been predestined? Unbelievable! God can do whatever he wants. You speak as though God is under the control of a force greater than himself.

And if you are believing exactly what the scriptures tell you, then do you believe (as I wrote to Benjamin) that Jesus is actually a door, a sheep, and a loaf of bread? The Bible refers to Him thus, so therefore it must be so.

This argument is plain dumb, everyone knows the scriptures are often written in symbolic or figurative speech. Scripture like this is easy to recognize and should not be taken literally. But when the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, look for no other sense. Everyone knows we cannot literally eat Jesus's flesh and literally drink his blood, so this scripture is not to be taken literally. But when the scriptures say God repented or changed his mind, this SHOULD be taken literally. People can change their mind or repent, and so can God.

No offense taken. I simply recognize your statement as grossly inaccurate. God is the most supreme of living beings. He is sovereign over all things and He is completely satisfied with Himself. He has no need for men. This is not Jerry McGuire. We do not complete Him. He completes us.

Well, I am glad you did not take offense, but what I said was true.

Thank you for the Monty Python reference.

I was not aware of the Monty Python quote, but sometimes even the world can spot error.

 

[agedman]

This argument is plain dumb, everyone knows the scriptures are often written in symbolic or figurative speech. Scripture like this is easy to recognize and should not be taken literally. But when the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, look for no other sense. Everyone knows we cannot literally eat Jesus's flesh and literally drink his blood, so this scripture is not to be taken literally.

Really????

Everyone knows?????

The largest group in the world believes exactly the opposite of what you stated.

They hold that the cup and the bread are actually the blood and flesh of Christ.

Just because the typical "baptist" doesn't hold that view does not mean "everyone" is on the same page. The RCC does and it is larger than all other groups put together.


More to the point, you have decided to take a part of Scripture as non-anthropomorphic, and others do.

The verse that is left out is in James 1: "17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures."

This answers both the question of God changing His mind and just who begat whom.

 

[MorseOp]

And God himself tells us that he has repented or changed his mind several times in the scriptures. Why don't you simply believe what God says of himself?

Then why don't you believe what Jesus says about Himself - that He is a loaf of bread and a sheep? If you are going to take scripture literally then you have to extend that same hermeneutic to the whole of scripture, not just one part.

But you do deny these scriptures, you attempt to explain it away. If God never changes his mind, he could have said so, but the scriptures clearly tell us God changed his mind several times.

On the contrary, I affirm these passages. I already said that as far as man is concerned, God changes His mind. But as far as God is concerned He has never changed His mind, nor can He. It is impossible for God to change His mind.

If God is capable of changing His mind then He would have to admit that He is not omniscient. There are some things that He would not know about until they happened. For what reason would God want to change His mind? God is perfect in all things. What He decrees comes to pass.

Again, as far as man goes, God changes His mind. We are finite creatures that are unable to see past the tip of our nose. God is infinite. In Revelation Jesus refers to Himself as the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. God is sees the past, present, and future as having happened, happening, and yet to happen all at the same time. This is why He cannot change His mind. He has the benefit of having seen what is going to happen tomorrow, today. When Hezekiah called on the LORD to spare his life, the LORD saw Hezekiah's prayer as answered before Hezekiah was even born. That He would relent and grant Hezekiah's request was already decided before it ever happened.

You have a hard time accepting that because you possess a deficient view of God's omniscience.

God's reactions have been predestined? Unbelievable! God can do whatever he wants. You speak as though God is under the control of a force greater than himself.

I am sorry you find this unbelievable. It is very believable. Again, your difficulty in accepting this stems from your deficient view of God's omniscience.

This argument is plain dumb, everyone knows the scriptures are often written in symbolic or figurative speech. Scripture like this is easy to recognize and should not be taken literally. But when the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, look for no other sense. Everyone knows we cannot literally eat Jesus's flesh and literally drink his blood, so this scripture is not to be taken literally. But when the scriptures say God repented or changed his mind, this SHOULD be taken literally. People can change their mind or repent, and so can God.

I'll repeat my answer from earlier in this post:

Then why don't you believe what Jesus says about Himself - that He is a loaf of bread and sheep? If you are going to take scripture literally then you have to extend that same hermeneutic to the whole of scripture, not just one part.

Well, I am glad you did not take offense, but what I said was true.

I am sure you think it is true.

 

[Van]

You are rude and abrasive. If other people are recognizing that character flaw, and calling you on it, then perhaps it is true.

I have defended my position(s), from scripture, more than a few times. I notice that many of those who you accuse of not defending their doctrine from scripture have actually done so. You simply refuse to acknowledge it. So, you are either lying or you lack the ability to recognize a biblically based argument. You feel this need to insult the people you debate. Why is that? I am sure you were raised with manners. Why do you choose to throw them out the window in a discussion board? You are not alone by the way. There are some on the Calvinist side who are just as rude and abrasive. I cringe when I read their posts.

Behold the defense of the false doctrine of Calvinism. Not even one verse cited to defend a TULI point. But plenty of the usual tactic of questioning my character and qualifications.

 

[Van]

Returning to topic, Exhaustive Determinists, such as some Calvinists, claim the future is fixed, and therefore we cannot alter the outcome of our lives. God does not really set before us the choice of life or death, no He sets before the Elect chosen before creation life only, and those not elected, death only. Not how scripture reads.

Other Calvinists say we have a choice of sins to pick from, so we sin by choice. Ludicrous I know, but that is what they teach.

 

[Van]

I suggest acquainting yourself with Psalm 110:4; Malachi 3:6.

I brought up the term "anthropomorphism" earlier. In theology an anthropomorphism is ascribing a human, animal, or earthly characteristic to God for effect. It works in a similar way to a parable. If you take a literal approach to scripture then you must agree that Exodus 32:14 teaches that God can change His mind. Never mind the theological crisis that accompanies a sovereign and omniscient God that can change His mind. You are compelled to conclude that He can change His mind. Maintaining that same literal approach to scripture you must conclude that Jesus is an actual door (John 10:7); a lamb (John 1:29); and a loaf of bread (John 6:35). If you are going to be true to your principle of interpretation (hermeneutic) you cannot switch between literal and figurative.

The fact is that God changing His mind is an anthropomorphic statement. In Exodus God knew (as well as Moses) how His intended audience would react. By using a common reference they would be able to understand. That is the same reason for the anthropomorphic statements in John. They make it easier for the intended audience to comprehend the real point of the story.

What if God really could change His mind? Well, it creates a crisis for the attribute of omniscience. It opens the way for men like the late Clark Pinnock, who was one of the leading advocates of open theism. Open theists believe that God offers a second chance to those who die in their sins. God is willing to forget and forgive their sins if they confess Christ after death. The belief that God can really change His mind begins and ends with a small view of God. It turns God into someone who can be influenced. It makes God dependent on man. Job found out, quite rudely, that God is completely in control and needs nothing from His creation (Job 38).

Just what are the attributes of God? Is He love? Or is that an anthropomorphism? If we go through the Bible and nullify every verse or passage that says something other than the doctrine we subscribe to, do we believe in God or in ourselves?

Here we have Calvinism again misrepresenting an actual truth. Sometimes the bible uses a figuratively illustration, such as God's eyes are everywhere. Now God does not have physical eyes, so that is an actual anthropomorphism, attributing to God physical features. But does this mean the idea being illustrated in not true, that God "sees" everything, even what is hidden in our heart? Nope, of course not.

So the misrepresentation is that when scripture uses an anthropomorphism, we can ignore what is being taught about God. Truth is we can ignore the physical attribute being said of God, but not what the physical attribute is said to accomplish.

Lets take God changes His mind. Does God have a physical mind. Nope, He is spirit. But does He have a spiritual mind? Yes. Do God's character and attributes change? Nope, He is the same yesterday, today and forever. So what do these verses actually say?

God makes contingent statements, if/then statements. If we do this, then God will do that. But what if we do not do the "if?" Does that mean God changed His mind because He was mistaken at first? Nope. It means God does not change, He does what He says and He means what He says.

 

[12strings]

Thanks winman, for writing a short post I can respond to...had to sift out all those super-long posts on this thread.

The scriptures tell us repeatedly that God repented or changed his mind. He repented he had made man in the days of Noah and destroyed the world. He repented when he said he would overthrow Nineveh in 40 days. When the people repented in sackcloth and ashes, God repented of overthrowing the city.

Calvinists can't handle this, they cannot deal with the fact that God would respond to men's actions. Nevertheless, this is exactly what the scriptures tell us.

-Would you at least admit that in each of these case...God KNEW he was going to change his mind?

Calvinists will take offense, but their concept of God is no different from an idol made of stone.

Unnecessary jab and Untrue. The God of Calvinistic doctrine simply says that and all-knowing God has no real reason to change his mind...not in the way we humans do...because no turn of event surprises him. We would simply say God chose to create the earth in a certain way, knowing full well all the implications of that...and that once his chosen course of action was made, there is no new information that God later learns that necessitates a change in plans.
-So when Ninevah was rebelling, God's good and right attitude was to draw near with judgement...When they repented and turned to God, God's good and right attitued toward such repentance is forgiveness. But God KNEW he was going to forgive them! So you can call it repentance (like scripture does) but we need to understand it is not a change of mind like humans make, based on new information previously unknown.

Think about the following scenarios and tell me which one sounds better:
1. God makes a plan, then based on actions of people, he makes a new, altered plan. This God is not omniscient, or he would have simply made the new plan in the first place.

2. God know all, so no actions of people will cause him to change his plan...but since we don't want to say God is locked in a box...we allow God to change his plans based solely on his own will. This God is all-knowing, but is not unchanging, and therefore cannot be trusted to one day radically alter his plans for the world.

3. God knows all, so he makes plans for the world, knowing full well the outcome of those plans, how people will respond to those plans, and what his good and right response to those people will be... Can such a god really be said to change his mind...We can use those words, but when used of God, they do not mean the same thing as when we use them of people.

God is a person, he is not made of stone.

[/QUOTE]

I'm glad we cleared that up. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[freeatlast]

-Would you at least admit that in each of these case...God KNEW he was going to change his mind?

Does scripture say that?

 

[12strings]

Does scripture say that?

1 John 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

Is. 46:9-10 - Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

Job 37:16 - Do you know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge.

Psalm 147:5 - Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.

 

[Van]

1 John 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

Is. 46:9-10 - Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

Job 37:16 - Do you know the balancing of the clouds, the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge.

Psalm 147:5 - Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.

Thanks 12 Strings for actually posting scripture thought to describe Divine Knowledge. Kudos!

1 John 3:20 contextually is referring to God knowing what is hidden in our heart. Nothing in there that God does not know and He is greater than our heart so His forgiveness overrides the condemnation of our heart. To cite this and claim it supports something more is without merit, it is just reading something not there into the text.

Yes God declares the end from the beginning, so whatever God says will occur, He makes happen. The hidden extrapolation Calvinists make is to claim God declares everything, i.e. exhaustive determinism, but that is not what the verse actually says.

Job 37:16 reads, either the One who is perfect in knowledge or has perfect knowledge. Now this verse is listed because the unstated assumption is "perfect" means complete, total, i.e. infinite. But actually the idea is without fault, God is not mistaken about anything. So no actual support, but rather the assumption of support, can be found in this verse with just as contextually solid, sound, view being faultless rather than infinite.

Next we get the usual mistranslation of Psalm 147:5, rather than being without limit, i.e. infinite, what the word means is beyond our understanding, such as we do not know the number of stars in the universe. So no actual support for the asserted premise. Hence a more literal translation would be His knowledge is greater than we can count.

As I said at the outset, there is no actual support in scripture for the assertion of the premise. Might be true, but at least these verses do not reveal that it is true.

 

[Mexdeaf]

You are forgiven, all Calvinists retreat to questioning my character and qualifications, because they are unable to defend their doctrine from scripture.

Sine you brought it up, I will say that Calvinists aren't the only ones who do this to you. That is just a reflection of the way you interact with others on this board.

 

[freeatlast]

1 John 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

Is. 46:9-10 - Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

Job 37:16 - Do you know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge.

Psalm 147:5 - Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.

If those passages mean that God knew He would change His mind doesn't it seem likely He would not get in a position to change it? For instance;
Gen 6:7
And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

If He knew ahead of time that creating man was going to make Him wish He had not then why create him in the first place?
To try and get around the fact that God changes His mind by suggesting He does so out of foreknowledge about what He will do it is just another way to deny scripture. I simply cannot understand why people cannot accept God for who and what He is. Based on scripture He is sovereign, all knowing, all powerfull, but He allows free will. He knows everything but He also is surprised and changes His mind and even gets angry when what He knows is going to happen once it does happen. He is just, but He is merciful. None of those things are compatible in our minds so men decide they cannot be part of God even when the bible says they are.
I have said before that although we need educated men there seems to be a trend for education to cause us to lose child like faith. Just believe what is written een if it cannot be explained.
Isa. 55:8
For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
We just want to keep Him in our own little box instead of accepting everything scripture says about Him and though He knows all He is also surprised, sadden, and angered, or happy when it happens based on scripture.

 

[freeatlast]

Sine you brought it up, I will say that Calvinists aren't the only ones who do this to you. That is just a reflection of the way you interact with others on this board.

This is why both election and free will needs to be accepted as both are taught in scripture.