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I did but I am sorry it is no help. There is no reason for God to say He changed His mind when He did not.

 

First off the only reason someone might feel there is a theological crisis for God to change His mind is because they have developed a theology that is contrary to God. Those two passages have nothing to do with God changing His mind. The Mal. passage is about His character, that never changes. The Psalm passage is saying that when He gives His word He never goes back on it.
God who cannot be tempted and cannot die and is not flesh and blood figured out how to be tempted, die, and be flesh and blood so He can also figure out how to change His mind and remain all that He is. I hold that believing He can change His mind opens the understanding of the greatness of God. We have a God who dare not violate His justice but to be God also must not violate His mercy and figured out how to do both. This same God who cannot be swayed can change His mind as scripture says He has. Just because He has not told us how this works does not negate the scripture. Deut 29:29
While I respect learned men, I think that we can sometimes become so educated that we lose our childlike faith.

 

Calvinism cannot accommodate a God that can change his mind, their system will fall apart. Not only is man locked in stone according to Calvinism, so is God.

The scriptures tell us repeatedly that God repented or changed his mind. He repented he had made man in the days of Noah and destroyed the world. He repented when he said he would overthrow Nineveh in 40 days. When the people repented in sackcloth and ashes, God repented of overthrowing the city.

Calvinists can't handle this, they cannot deal with the fact that God would respond to men's actions. Nevertheless, this is exactly what the scriptures tell us.

Calvinists will take offense, but their concept of God is no different from an idol made of stone.

God is a person, he is not made of stone.

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

And God himself tells us that he has repented or changed his mind several times in the scriptures. Why don't you simply believe what God says of himself?

But you do deny these scriptures, you attempt to explain it away. If God never changes his mind, he could have said so, but the scriptures clearly tell us God changed his mind several times.

God's reactions have been predestined? Unbelievable! God can do whatever he wants. You speak as though God is under the control of a force greater than himself.

This argument is plain dumb, everyone knows the scriptures are often written in symbolic or figurative speech. Scripture like this is easy to recognize and should not be taken literally. But when the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, look for no other sense. Everyone knows we cannot literally eat Jesus's flesh and literally drink his blood, so this scripture is not to be taken literally. But when the scriptures say God repented or changed his mind, this SHOULD be taken literally. People can change their mind or repent, and so can God.

Well, I am glad you did not take offense, but what I said was true.

I was not aware of the Monty Python quote, but sometimes even the world can spot error.

 

Really????

Everyone knows?????

The largest group in the world believes exactly the opposite of what you stated.

They hold that the cup and the bread are actually the blood and flesh of Christ.

Just because the typical "baptist" doesn't hold that view does not mean "everyone" is on the same page. The RCC does and it is larger than all other groups put together.


More to the point, you have decided to take a part of Scripture as non-anthropomorphic, and others do.

The verse that is left out is in James 1: "17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures."

This answers both the question of God changing His mind and just who begat whom.

 

Behold the defense of the false doctrine of Calvinism. Not even one verse cited to defend a TULI point. But plenty of the usual tactic of questioning my character and qualifications.

 

Returning to topic, Exhaustive Determinists, such as some Calvinists, claim the future is fixed, and therefore we cannot alter the outcome of our lives. God does not really set before us the choice of life or death, no He sets before the Elect chosen before creation life only, and those not elected, death only. Not how scripture reads.

Other Calvinists say we have a choice of sins to pick from, so we sin by choice. Ludicrous I know, but that is what they teach.

 

Just what are the attributes of God? Is He love? Or is that an anthropomorphism? If we go through the Bible and nullify every verse or passage that says something other than the doctrine we subscribe to, do we believe in God or in ourselves?

Here we have Calvinism again misrepresenting an actual truth. Sometimes the bible uses a figuratively illustration, such as God's eyes are everywhere. Now God does not have physical eyes, so that is an actual anthropomorphism, attributing to God physical features. But does this mean the idea being illustrated in not true, that God "sees" everything, even what is hidden in our heart? Nope, of course not.

So the misrepresentation is that when scripture uses an anthropomorphism, we can ignore what is being taught about God. Truth is we can ignore the physical attribute being said of God, but not what the physical attribute is said to accomplish.

Lets take God changes His mind. Does God have a physical mind. Nope, He is spirit. But does He have a spiritual mind? Yes. Do God's character and attributes change? Nope, He is the same yesterday, today and forever. So what do these verses actually say?

God makes contingent statements, if/then statements. If we do this, then God will do that. But what if we do not do the "if?" Does that mean God changed His mind because He was mistaken at first? Nope. It means God does not change, He does what He says and He means what He says.

 

Thanks winman, for writing a short post I can respond to...had to sift out all those super-long posts on this thread.

-Would you at least admit that in each of these case...God KNEW he was going to change his mind?

Unnecessary jab and Untrue. The God of Calvinistic doctrine simply says that and all-knowing God has no real reason to change his mind...not in the way we humans do...because no turn of event surprises him. We would simply say God chose to create the earth in a certain way, knowing full well all the implications of that...and that once his chosen course of action was made, there is no new information that God later learns that necessitates a change in plans.
-So when Ninevah was rebelling, God's good and right attitude was to draw near with judgement...When they repented and turned to God, God's good and right attitued toward such repentance is forgiveness. But God KNEW he was going to forgive them! So you can call it repentance (like scripture does) but we need to understand it is not a change of mind like humans make, based on new information previously unknown.

Think about the following scenarios and tell me which one sounds better:
1. God makes a plan, then based on actions of people, he makes a new, altered plan. This God is not omniscient, or he would have simply made the new plan in the first place.

2. God know all, so no actions of people will cause him to change his plan...but since we don't want to say God is locked in a box...we allow God to change his plans based solely on his own will. This God is all-knowing, but is not unchanging, and therefore cannot be trusted to one day radically alter his plans for the world.

3. God knows all, so he makes plans for the world, knowing full well the outcome of those plans, how people will respond to those plans, and what his good and right response to those people will be... Can such a god really be said to change his mind...We can use those words, but when used of God, they do not mean the same thing as when we use them of people.

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I'm glad we cleared that up. :smilewinkgrin:

 

Does scripture say that?

 

1 John 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

Is. 46:9-10 - Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

Job 37:16 - Do you know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge.

Psalm 147:5 - Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.

 

Thanks 12 Strings for actually posting scripture thought to describe Divine Knowledge. Kudos!

1 John 3:20 contextually is referring to God knowing what is hidden in our heart. Nothing in there that God does not know and He is greater than our heart so His forgiveness overrides the condemnation of our heart. To cite this and claim it supports something more is without merit, it is just reading something not there into the text.

Yes God declares the end from the beginning, so whatever God says will occur, He makes happen. The hidden extrapolation Calvinists make is to claim God declares everything, i.e. exhaustive determinism, but that is not what the verse actually says.

Job 37:16 reads, either the One who is perfect in knowledge or has perfect knowledge. Now this verse is listed because the unstated assumption is "perfect" means complete, total, i.e. infinite. But actually the idea is without fault, God is not mistaken about anything. So no actual support, but rather the assumption of support, can be found in this verse with just as contextually solid, sound, view being faultless rather than infinite.

Next we get the usual mistranslation of Psalm 147:5, rather than being without limit, i.e. infinite, what the word means is beyond our understanding, such as we do not know the number of stars in the universe. So no actual support for the asserted premise. Hence a more literal translation would be His knowledge is greater than we can count.

As I said at the outset, there is no actual support in scripture for the assertion of the premise. Might be true, but at least these verses do not reveal that it is true.

 

Sine you brought it up, I will say that Calvinists aren't the only ones who do this to you. That is just a reflection of the way you interact with others on this board.

 

If those passages mean that God knew He would change His mind doesn't it seem likely He would not get in a position to change it? For instance;
Gen 6:7
And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

If He knew ahead of time that creating man was going to make Him wish He had not then why create him in the first place?
To try and get around the fact that God changes His mind by suggesting He does so out of foreknowledge about what He will do it is just another way to deny scripture. I simply cannot understand why people cannot accept God for who and what He is. Based on scripture He is sovereign, all knowing, all powerfull, but He allows free will. He knows everything but He also is surprised and changes His mind and even gets angry when what He knows is going to happen once it does happen. He is just, but He is merciful. None of those things are compatible in our minds so men decide they cannot be part of God even when the bible says they are.
I have said before that although we need educated men there seems to be a trend for education to cause us to lose child like faith. Just believe what is written een if it cannot be explained.
Isa. 55:8
For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
We just want to keep Him in our own little box instead of accepting everything scripture says about Him and though He knows all He is also surprised, sadden, and angered, or happy when it happens based on scripture.

 

This is why both election and free will needs to be accepted as both are taught in scripture.