Perfected forever !

[JamesL]

Some will be raised but outside of Christ, the Resurrection of Damnation has nothing to do with the Resurrection of Christ for His People ! Jn 5:29 Those Christ died for have nothing to do with the Resurrection of the damned !

That shows you have a dust deep understanding of sin, and what Christ's death accomplished, and the scope of reconciliation, and the nature of resurrected bodies

I told you to think first, and also to study. You haven't done either. And that's sad

 

[BobRyan]

But every eye shall see Him, even unbelievers who aren't sanctified.

You read Rev 1 correctly.

But you are missing 1John 3:1-4 -- read it "we shall be like Him -- for we shall see Him - AS HE IS"

John says we don't know what we will be but we do know this "we will be like HIM" for "we shall see Him as He IS" at the 2nd coming.

No writer says that of any of the wicked.

In fact God tells Moses that he cannot see God as He is - and live.

And Paul said no man has ever, nor can ever, see God.

only in the fallen state.

But your doctrine allows for a saint to shrink back into perdition, thus supposedly disqualifying that saint from seeing Him

Rev 6 the lost see Him (not as He is ) but they see Him and cry of the rocks to fall on them.

The wicked in Rev 20 see Him - and are destroyed by fire that comes down out of heaven and "devours them" according to Rev 20.

The bible is pretty clear on these points - I don't see where you are having the problem.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[savedbymercy]

That shows you have a dust deep understanding of sin, and what Christ's death accomplished, and the scope of reconciliation, and the nature of resurrected bodies

I told you to think first, and also to study. You haven't done either. And that's sad

Back on the subject, Christ death alone accomplished Two things for them He died for, what are they according to the OP ?

 

[JamesL]

Back on the subject, Christ death alone accomplished Two things for them He died for, what are they according to the OP ?

Smart move. Now take the opportunity to learn what the scriptures say about the issue.


However, the original topic was not a question about two things Christ's death accomplished.

Your original post was an emphatic claim - Perfected Forever!

Hebrews 10:14 makes an emphatic statement that He has forever perfected those who are sanctified.

Now. It's this simple. It was your thread title, not anybody else's. You, not anyone else, penned the first post in the thread, and quoted Heb 10:14

But you have refused to answer the questions about the reality of perfection accomplished.

are you perfect? did Christ accomplish that for you?

Yes or no, it's that simple. How can you demand an answer from others, when you're unwilling to apply an answer to yourself?

Christ has forever perfected those who are sanctified. You claim to be sanctified. So are you perfect? If you aren't perfect, then you aren't sanctified.

So answer. Are you perfect? Did Christ accomplish that for you?

 

[JamesL]

The bible is pretty clear on these points - I don't see where you are having the problem.

in Christ,

Bob

The problem I have is that you won't answer the question I asked. What does it mean to "see the Lord" in Heb 12:14?

It's just a simple question.

You throw around Hebrews 12:14 without qualification or clarification.

No one will "see the Lord" without sanctification (or holiness).

I'm simply asking you to get down to brass tacks. Specific definition of "see the Lord"

But you keep dancing.

 

[savedbymercy]

Smart move. Now take the opportunity to learn what the scriptures say about the issue.


However, the original topic was not a question about two things Christ's death accomplished.

Your original post was an emphatic claim - Perfected Forever!

Hebrews 10:14 makes an emphatic statement that He has forever perfected those who are sanctified.

Now. It's this simple. It was your thread title, not anybody else's. You, not anyone else, penned the first post in the thread, and quoted Heb 10:14

But you have refused to answer the questions about the reality of perfection accomplished.

are you perfect? did Christ accomplish that for you?

Yes or no, it's that simple. How can you demand an answer from others, when you're unwilling to apply an answer to yourself?

Christ has forever perfected those who are sanctified. You claim to be sanctified. So are you perfect? If you aren't perfect, then you aren't sanctified.

So answer. Are you perfect? Did Christ accomplish that for you?

You must cannot read. This thread is about what Christ death alone accomplished for them He died for. TWO things are pointed out in my OP ! What are they ?

 

[PreachTony]

Heb 10:10-14

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

True Believers were perfected forever by Christ's Death before they were even born sinners, if Christ died for our sins 1 Cor 15:3.

Now many unenlightened minds, calling themselves Believers or Christians do fail to realize that all sinners Christ has died for, hath once and for all, solely by Hos One Offering, which means His Death, they by it hath been once and for all Sanctified Vs 10 and Perfected forever ! Both the words Sanctified in Vs 10 and Perfected in Vs 14 are in the Perfect tense in the greek : (emphasis mine)

Just curious, savedbymercy, but how is someone perfected and then born as a sinner? Are we not, as sinners, by necessity imperfect? We are corruptible so long as we wear this flesh. We cannot be perfected in this sin-corrupted body. Yet you are saying we are perfected prior to being born sinners. Wouldn't that perfection stop us from being born a sinner?

 

[steaver]

Just curious, savedbymercy, but how is someone perfected and then born as a sinner? Are we not, as sinners, by necessity imperfect? We are corruptible so long as we wear this flesh. We cannot be perfected in this sin-corrupted body. Yet you are saying we are perfected prior to being born sinners. Wouldn't that perfection stop us from being born a sinner?

STOP messing up MY perfect exposition with all these difficult questions!!!!!!!!!!! :smilewinkgrin:

Questions are what try the spirits, to see if they are from God. Questions try doctrinal povs, real life applications must be worked through and settled. This is why you see me raising lots of questions in my threads, and doctrinal error being exposed is why you see many questions being avoided like the plague. Oftentimes you see one of two things, (1) the poster ignores the questions (2) the poster resorts to vitriol and acrimony.

 

[JamesL]

We are corruptible so long as we wear this flesh. We cannot be perfected in this sin-corrupted body. Yet you are saying we are perfected prior to being born sinners. Wouldn't that perfection stop us from being born a sinner?

We can be perfected while we're in this flesh. Jesus was made in the likeness of sinful flesh, yet remained perfect.

Check out:


Hebrews 10:14
14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.


Hebrews 11:39-40
39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.


Hebrews 12:22-24
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel


Read the whole of Heb 8-10, where the writer contrasted the Aaronic priesthood with that of Christ, and contrasted the animal sacrifices with that of Christ.

His blood removes sin. Our inner man the spirit, is forever perfected in regeneration. But our flesh will not be perfected until the resurrection.

That's why 1John 3:9 says the one who is born of God is not able to sin. Paul said as much in Romans 7 - it is no longer I who do it, but sin in me; that is, in my flesh (body). But who will save me from this body of death? Christ.

Go back to Romans 5. Having been (past) justified by His blood, we shall be (future) "saved" by His life (resurrection)


Read 2Cor 4-5. There's a distinction between the inner man, who is being strengthened day by day, and the outer man which is perishing.

Neglecting this distinction forces a view of righteousness which hinges on behavior. Or it hinges on a "symbolic" imputation, which reduces the blood of Christ to being no better than that of an animal

 

[PreachTony]

We can be perfected while we're in this flesh. Jesus was made in the likeness of sinful flesh, yet remained perfect.

True, James, and I realized the sort of ambiguity my original statement left. Likewise I believe the inner man to be perfected. I was trying to speak more in terms of the outer man, or the flesh itself. Like too many times in the past, I failed to properly state my case the way I intended.

We can strive for perfection, or for avoiding sinfulness, as Christ told the woman taken in adultery to "go, and sin no more." But we do fall into temptation from time to time. This does not justify sin at all, but it does note that we do sin. Thankfully, if we sin, we have an advocate with the Father.

As you said, this flesh will not be perfected until the resurrection.

 

[savedbymercy]

Now, if the Death of Christ Sanctified and Perfected forever them that He died for, how is it possible for those who are condemned already Jn 3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And under God's Wrath Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Notice something else here also, Jesus says of these that the wrath of God is abiding on, That they shall not see Life, thats a Promise, so there is absolutely no hope of Eternal Life for these whom the Wrath of God is abiding on !

So how could they have been any for whom Christ died for and Sanctified and Perfected forever by that ? The obvious answer is they are not of those for whom Christ died, its impossible for them to be !