Perfection

[steaver]

There was one offering that He [Jesus] has perfected for ever them that are sanctified [those who persevere to the end]. It doesn't say anything about those who have fallen away, or about one’s ability or inability to fall away - it is only concerning those that are sanctified.

‡ Peace ‡

Then I must ask, have you been sanctified by Jesus Christ Billy?

BTW [those who persevere to the end] would not be argued by the ESIC camp. All those sanctified by Jesus are those who persevere until the end. God has promissed.

1Th 5:24Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do [it].

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

..... and now on to the personal attack!

So, I disagree with your interpretation therefore I do not understand ESIC, I am one who plucks verses out of context and have a shallow understanding of scripture. Nice...

‡ Peace ‡

I don't believe what I posted constitutes a "personal attack". Report it to the moderators and if they agree they will notify me and I will repent and be more careful.

Really none of us should be making a personal interpretation of scripture. One should follow hermeneutics and allow the bible to interpret itself. When one plucks verses out of context and abandons the full counsel of God's word they are opening themselves up for contradictions and misapplications of God's word.

:jesus:

ps. I appologize if my post offended you personally. I am sure you are very capable of studying the scriptures, however, we must all test our own reasoning as to why we believe as we believe.

As I studied this issue over several years before deciding on ESIC being eternal life I kept coming back to my own life and realized that I am nothing more than a sinner saved by grace. I cannot even explain to you why I continue to believe in Jesus Christ accept for the fact that He is always right there in my spirit and I cannot escape Him. Oh I tried in my youth especially. I marched right on into sins that He was convicting me of should not be. I've simply never been able to stop believing.

Can you stop believing Billy? Go ahead and try it for a day or so and see if you can. Try it for just a minute ot two. Let me know how you make out.

:jesus:

 

[BillySunday1935]

I don't believe what I posted constitutes a "personal attack". Report it to the moderators and if they agree they will notify me and I will repent and be more careful.

Really none of us should be making a personal interpretation of scripture. One should follow hermeneutics and allow the bible to interpret itself.

A book cannot interpret itself - at least not in this universe.

When one plucks verses out of context and abandons the full counsel of God's word they are opening themselves up for contradictions and misapplications of God's word.

:jesus:

Well, upon who’s interpretive authority should we then rely?

ps. I appologize if my post offended you personally. I am sure you are very capable of studying the scriptures, however, we must all test our own reasoning as to why we believe as we believe.

Agreed! No need to apologize.

As I studied this issue over several years before deciding on ESIC being eternal life I kept coming back to my own life and realized that I am nothing more than a sinner saved by grace. I cannot even explain to you why I continue to believe in Jesus Christ accept for the fact that He is always right there in my spirit and I cannot escape Him. Oh I tried in my youth especially. I marched right on into sins that He was convicting me of should not be. I've simply never been able to stop believing.

That goes to my point... until we "finish the race" we cannot know for sure whether or not we shall fall away and stay that way - we cannot see the future.

Can you stop believing Billy? Go ahead and try it for a day or so and see if you can. Try it for just a minute ot two. Let me know how you make out.

:jesus:

Believing is not the same as living the faith and avoiding serious sin. In that sense, even Satan and his demons believe.

‡ Peace ‡

 

[steaver]

A book cannot interpret itself - at least not in this universe.

‡ Peace ‡

Rev 12:3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

What is your interpretation of the dragon and if you have one how did you come up with it?

Well, upon who’s interpretive authority should we then rely?

Scripture interprets scripture. We are not speaking of a "book" here. We are speaking of God's word to man revealed to us through 66 seperate Spirit led writings by some forty different apostles or prophets chosen by God.

Here is another example for you,

Isa 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Of whom does the prophet speak of? If you know, how is it you know? Did you interpret it for yourself, a vision maybe, an angel from heaven helped you, maybe the Spirit of God spoke to you, or did you counsel other scripture?

Thus, scripture interprets scripture. If you have a doctrinal position and it is based on a particular verse or verses then you must explain how you came to the conclusion you did concerning the verses you present at the exclusion of any other interpretation. This rule is Biblical hermeneutics.

Here is a definition of how it works http://www.forananswer.org/Top_General/Hermeneutics.htm

That goes to my point... until we "finish the race" we cannot know for sure whether or not we shall fall away and stay that way - we cannot see the future.

Are you saying you do not know if Christ has given you eternal life?

Believing is not the same as living the faith and avoiding serious sin. In that sense, even Satan and his demons believe.

Scripture defines believing as living the faith. James made it clear that just saying you believe does not save. If on etruly believes one will live by faith in Jesus Christ and finish the race.

1Cr 3:15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

As for sin (transgressions of the law);

Rom 10:4
For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.



The law has no power to condemn those who are in Christ Jesus. Jesus paid my pardon forever. All past, present or future sins. All paid in full. I have been purchased by Him and He owns me. This is why I cannot stop believing.

Have you ever tried to stop? Have any luck at it?

Oh, and don't forget my question;

Then I must ask, have you been sanctified by Jesus Christ Billy?

:jesus:

 

[BillySunday1935]

Rev 12:3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

What is your interpretation of the dragon and if you have one how did you come up with it?

I tend toward the Preterist view which holds that most or all of the biblical prophecies concerning the End Times refer to events which have already happened in the first century after Christ's birth.

So in my view, the Whore is Jerusalem and the Beast is Rome (with the ten horns as vassal states). The alliance between the two in persecuting Christians broke down in A.D. 66–70, when Rome and its allied forces conquered Israel and then destroyed, sacked, and burned Jerusalem, just as Jesus prophesied (Luke 21:5–24).

Scripture interprets scripture. We are not speaking of a "book" here. We are speaking of God's word to man revealed to us through 66 seperate Spirit led writings by some forty different apostles or prophets chosen by God.

If scripture interprets itself, why do we have so many different interpretations?

Here is another example for you,

Isa 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Of whom does the prophet speak of? If you know, how is it you know? Did you interpret it for yourself, a vision maybe, an angel from heaven helped you, maybe the Spirit of God spoke to you, or did you counsel other scripture?

I know the same way that you know - and that is by my own interpretation or the interpretation of others.

Thus, scripture interprets scripture.

I think we should heed Peter’s warning about Paul’s letters: "There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures" (2 Pet. 3:16).

Some things are hard to understand, but not everything is.

If you have a doctrinal position and it is based on a particular verse or verses then you must explain how you came to the conclusion you did concerning the verses you present at the exclusion of any other interpretation. This rule is Biblical hermeneutics.

Here is a definition of how it works http://www.forananswer.org/Top_General/Hermeneutics.htm

I understand hermeneutics. However, if scripture interprets itself, then one should not need the methodology of hermeneutics. Besides – how do you know that those who developed those tools that “rightly divide” scripture had the correct interpretation of scripture themselves when they worked out that methodology to begin with?

In your source, I noticed the following statement: “We believe that there is only one "right" interpretation of any given Biblical passage - the meaning God intended when He "breathed" His word into the human author. “

I would ask you then, how do they know that they have the correct interpretation of scripture? Is it by the use of “…hermeneutical principles... that we strive to adhere to in the commentaries [an expression of opinion or interpretation] on this website” - principles developed by individuals who themselves held to their own interpretation?

That sounds circular to me...

Are you saying you do not know if Christ has given you eternal life?

He has – and it is a free gift (grace). However, I must chose to accept and cooperate with that grace – I must do as he commanded. We have free will in the matter. God forces no one to love and serve him.

Here is what I am saying…
I have been saved, I am being saved, and (provided I persevere) I will be saved.

"been saved" - Ephesians 2:4-5:
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

"being saved" - 1 Corinthians 1:18:
The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

"will be saved" - Mark 13:13:
You will be hated by all because of my name. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Scripture defines believing as living the faith. James made it clear that just saying you believe does not save. If one truly believes one will live by faith in Jesus Christ and finish the race.

I agree – faith without works is dead.

1Cr 3:15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

As for sin (transgressions of the law);
Rom 10:4
For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The faith that justifies us is alive and expressed through love (Gal. 5:6), not just intellectual belief or personal trust. In Romans 3:21–23 and 10:4, Paul teaches that Jesus ushered in a new mode of justification—apart from the Mosaic law but not apart from good deeds, which James tells us are essential for justification (Jas. 2:24–26). In fact, Jesus says he will measure our righteousness by how well we have put our faith to work in acts of love for our neighbor (Matt. 25:37–40).

The law has no power to condemn those who are in Christ Jesus. Jesus paid my pardon forever. All past, present or future sins. All paid in full. I have been purchased by Him and He owns me. This is why I cannot stop believing. Have you ever tried to stop? Have any luck at it?

Well, simply believing will not get you into heaven. Scripture is clear about that.

Hebrews 6:10-12
For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do. And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of hope until the end, so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Jeremiah 17:10 (King James Version)
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Revelation 2:23 (King James Version)
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works

Revelation 20:12 (King James Version)
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

There are plenty more. However, if I post them I will most assuredly be accused of proof texting.

Oh, and don't forget my question;

Then I must ask, have you been sanctified by Jesus Christ Billy?

:jesus:

Ok – we need to define terms here.
What is your definition of sanctification? I believe that becoming Holy is a process – a life long process.

‡ Peace ‡

 

[steaver]

Quote:
Originally Posted by steaver
Here is another example for you,

Isa 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Of whom does the prophet speak of? If you know, how is it you know? Did you interpret it for yourself, a vision maybe, an angel from heaven helped you, maybe the Spirit of God spoke to you, or did you counsel other scripture?

I know the same way that you know - and that is by my own interpretation or the interpretation of others.

‡ Peace ‡

Your post is long so one point at a time.

How does this answer my questions? Please read them and adress each one.

:jesus:

 

[BillySunday1935]

Your post is long so one point at a time.

How does this answer my questions? Please read them and adress each one.

:jesus:

I did that in my post - I addressed each point one at a time. You didn't specifiy the length of the post and you didn't seperate your questions out one at a time either.

Peace!

 

[steaver]

I did that in my post - I addressed each point one at a time. You didn't specifiy the length of the post and you didn't seperate your questions out one at a time either.

Peace!

I understand that. But back to my questions in this post. Would you answer please?

Here they are,

Here is another example for you,

Isa 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

1) Of whom does the prophet speak of?

2) If you know, how is it you know?

3) Did you interpret it for yourself, a vision maybe, an angel from heaven helped you, maybe the Spirit of God spoke to you, or did you counsel other scripture?

:jesus:

 

[BillySunday1935]

I understand that. But back to my questions in this post. Would you answer please?

Here they are,

Here is another example for you,

Isa 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

1) Of whom does the prophet speak of?

Isaiah 9:6 speaks of Jesus the omnipotent God who became a little child, and without violence subdued the world.

2) If you know, how is it you know?

a) I know by reading and logically connecting other scripture such as:

Yahweh is both the great God and our Savior. (See Isaiah 41:4, 43:3,11, 44:6,8, 45:21; Hos. 13:4; and Luke 1:47.)

(Heb. 1:8) "But of the Son he says, ‘Thy throne, O God (ho theos, the definite article plus theos), is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom’"

(Titus 2:13) Jesus is not only the God, he is the great God and our Savior.

(John 20:28)."My Lord and My God"

Clearly, there are others as well.

b) By reading the Early Church Fathers (in this case Clement, St. Iræneus, and St. Ignatius) – I believe that the views of these people, who were very close to the apostles themselves, should be looked at as authoritative when there is consensus among them.

c) Consulting various commentaries

d) Using scripture database tools

3) Did you interpret it for yourself, a vision maybe, an angel from heaven helped you, maybe the Spirit of God spoke to you, or did you counsel other scripture?

:jesus:

My answer is "no" to every point except the one regarding scripture (see point #2 above). However, you and I both know that our theological belief systems are heavily influenced by the personal bent of preachers and theologians upon whom we choose to rely, as-well-as by the denominational lenses through which we gaze.


OK - I took the time to answer everyone of your questions in my previous post and I asked you a few as well. Please do me the honor of reading and addressing my answers and questions to you, then we can continue. A little reciprocity is in order here.

Peace!

 

[steaver]

Isaiah 9:6 speaks of Jesus the omnipotent God who became a little child, and without violence subdued the world.



a) I know by reading and logically connecting other scripture such as:

Yahweh is both the great God and our Savior. (See Isaiah 41:4, 43:3,11, 44:6,8, 45:21; Hos. 13:4; and Luke 1:47.)

(Heb. 1:8) "But of the Son he says, ‘Thy throne, O God (ho theos, the definite article plus theos), is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom’"

(Titus 2:13) Jesus is not only the God, he is the great God and our Savior.
(John 20:28)."My Lord and My God"

Clearly, there are others as well.


Peace!

Thank you! This is using scripture to interpret scripture. Something you said could never happen in this universe.

b) By reading the Early Church Fathers (in this case Clement, St. Iræneus, and St. Ignatius) – I believe that the views of these people, who were very close to the apostles themselves, should be looked at as authoritative when there is consensus among them.

It is good to read former leader's views. However, authorative they are not. They are not apostles and must rely upon the same inspired scriptures that we have to read today. They also needed to search the scriptures to make interpretations of the scriptures. Scripture interpreting scripture.

c) Consulting various commentaries

d) Using scripture database tools

Excellent tools. However, these commentarians also had to rely upon scripture interpreting scripture as they studied.

My answer is "no" to every point except the one regarding scripture (see point #2 above).

Then why do you say scripture cannot interpret scripture? You have shown me that you used scripture to interpret scripture.

However, you and I both know that our theological belief systems are heavily influenced by the personal bent of preachers and theologians upon whom we choose to rely, as-well-as by the denominational lenses through which we gaze.

Preachers and theologians are very influential and this is why James gives a warning to those who desire to hold these positions. These will receive a greater condemnation for what they taught to those masses who generally live by "well, the preacher said so".

Personally, I check every sermon or commentary against the scriptures using bible hermeneutics. This is just me and in reality few parishioners bother to take the time and simply just follow what the preacher or denomination teaches.

I have learned under two pastors in the past 13 years and most of what they taught I believed was dead on with scripture as I examined what they had said. A couple of things I did not agree with.

If our denomination for some odd reason decided to teach a faith plus works gospel I would have to leave that church for bible hermenuetics shows me that it is by grace ye have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

God has given us preachers and teachers who are to study the scriptures and lead and teach the flock. These are not infallible when it comes to what they say the scripture means. In most cases the hearer has the word to read and study for themselves, also the believer has the Holy Spirit whom speaks to the spirit as truths are taught.

For example, I have heard a preacher preach how a woman wearing pants is sin and he went down through several scriptures which he believed proved his position. As I followed along through the scriptures the Spirit did not convict me that he was on target with truth. In fact, my spirit was telling me that he was preaching a personal preference and it was not a truth from God. He would say the opposite I suppose, that the Spirit has convicted him it was truth. These kinds of things will be settled at the judgment seat of Christ.

Bottom line though is, everyone must use scripture to interpret scripture. Which was my point from the beginning.

:jesus:

 

[Darrell C]

Hello BillySunday,

Ok….Let's look at each verse.



Yes – Jesus made the once and for all sacrifice - no mention of eternal security here.



Yes - only the sacrifice of Jesus Christ can take away sin – still no mention of eternal security here.



This simply reinforces that which was stated in ver. 10:
Jesus made the once and for all sacrifice and now sits at the right hand of the Father. Again, there’s no mention of eternal security here either.



This implies Jesus' return - still no eternal security...



All this is saying is that Jesus atoned for sin through his once and for all sacrifice.

Let’s dissect verse 14…
14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

There was one offering that He [Jesus] has perfected for ever them that are sanctified [those who persevere to the end]. It doesn't say anything about those who have fallen away, or about one’s ability or inability to fall away - it is only concerning those that are sanctified.

‡ Peace ‡

You say "let's disect this verse", and then completely miss the point.

I don't say this as an attack, BillySunday, but just what I see.

Consider:

You say it only concerns those who are sanctified, but you miss the fact that these have been sanctified "once".

Those who are sanctified have been perfected "forever".

The verse is speaking about those who are sanctified, not Christ's sacrifice.

And states they are "made complete" forever.

If you would examine what is being looked at in the study, you will see that completion is what is being talked about.

All I am asking you to do is to examine the study itself, rather than writing it off because you are against OSAS.

This is not an OSAS thread, but a study of something that few have ever considered, though it is right there for all.

Nevertheless, to answer one of your arguments, you say that "hope" is speaking of something that is yet forthcoming, that we have not attained.

Consider:

Hebrews 6-

17Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

20Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Notice we have fled for refuge, to lay hold on the hope before us.

This hope (v.19), has entered into that within the veil (God's presence).

The hope is Jesus Christ.

Either you have Jesus Christ, or you don't (this is a general statement, BillySunday, it is not directed at you, nor am I calling into question your salvation).

Whereas you might look at this and see hope as something yet to come, I see (and believe Hebrews to teach) that this hope is not "something we are desiring to happen", but is Jesus Christ.

We are tied to Jesus, Who has already entered the presence of God, which is the ultimate fulfillment of God's oath and promise.

We are tied to Jesus by His indwelling Spirit.

God made promise to Abraham, and He kept His promise.

He has made promise to us, and He will keep that promise also.

Again, this is not an OSAS thread, and, while this will come into the conversation (and it must), please try to examine the study content, and all comments on that will be welcome.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Hello to All,

Just wanted to touch on the remaining two principles in our current list (we have another list coming up two verses down the page).

Understanding the importance of identifying the components of our current list will help us as we work through one of the most difficult passages in scripture to interpret.

Lets look at it now.

Hebrews 6:1-2 (King James Version)


Hebrews 6


1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2Of the doctrine of baptisms,and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Resurrection of the Dead.

I will combine these two for the sake of time and because in the Old Testament, teaching on either is limited.

While there was a basic belief in life after death for many in the day of Jesus' ministry, I myself cannot say exactly to what extent it went.

I know that the Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the dead, and the Sadducees didn't (that was why they were so sad...you see?)

We see these combined in one verse in Daniel 12:2-

Daniel 12 (King James Version)


Daniel 12

2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


This verse is a good spring-board for what we examine at this time, for it combines the two aspects of our list.

This is a bit vague at first, but remember, this is a basic teaching, not complete.

It says that "many...shall awake", leading some to conclude that there will be those who do not.

For the person who may read this and comfort themselves that when they die, that's the end, take heed to the more complete teaching of Christ:

John 5:24-29 (King James Version)



24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Those who believe have been given everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation. It's right there folks.

25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Who shall hear? The dead. If life were to cease at death, how then would they hear?

These are they that "sleep in the dust of the earth".

26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Jesus is the righteous judge.

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,


ALL that are in the graves shall hear His voice. So we see that the "many" of Daniel is clearly speaking about the number of those who hear, not the percentage (having a connotation of abundance).

29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Sound familiar?

That there was a belief in resurrection is shown by a few verses:

Matthew 22:23-32 (King James Version)

23The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
24Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
25Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27And last of all the woman died also.
28Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.


One of the interesting things about this passage is the fact that Jesus rebukes them for their ignorance of scripture.

Which is exactly what our writer of Hebrews does in the end of chapter 5.

What He is saying is this: though it does not say explicitly "This concerns Resurrection of the dead", Jesus makes it clear that they should have realized that because God said, "I AM the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob", they should have been able to put two and two together, and conclude that these three yet lived.

There are things that scripture teaches us that are not spelled out explicitly, but by looking at the whole of scripture, we will see them.

The teaching of Resurrection of the dead is now more complete, and we have a better understanding than they that did not have the New Testament teaching.

Because of course, it is now "complete".

We know our future resurrection comes, and that of the fate of unbelievers.




...and of eternal judgment.

We also know that we as believers are not in fear of eternal judgement.

There is now no condemnation for them that are in Christ.

See our earlier comparison verse:

John 5:24 (King James Version)

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

There are those who should fear what lies ahead of them.

John 3:18 (King James Version)

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Is there one who believes himself to be neutral in the matter?

God does not see it that way.

By not making a choice, you have made your choice.

Your only hope is to repent, and call on the name of Jesus, and He will save you from the fate that awaits you.

You have His Word on it.

I will stop here for now.

Next we look at our next list in this passage, and try to determine what it consist of and of whom it speaks.

Until then, all questions and comments are welcome,

God Bless.

 

[BillySunday1935]

You say "let's disect this verse", and then completely miss the point.

I don't say this as an attack, BillySunday, but just what I see.

Consider:

You say it only concerns those who are sanctified, but you miss the fact that these have been sanctified "once".

Those who are sanctified have been perfected "forever".

I didn't miss it at all. Sanctification is the process of being made Holy - it is a prcoess not a one-time event.

The verse is speaking about those who are sanctified, not Christ's sacrifice.
And states they are "made complete" forever.

If you would examine what is being looked at in the study, you will see that completion is what is being talked about.

All I am asking you to do is to examine the study itself, rather than writing it off because you are against OSAS.

This is not an OSAS thread, but a study of something that few have ever considered, though it is right there for all.

But that is precisely the seminal point that you were making and the one to which I responded. You cannot discuss santification if you already hold to the premise that salvation cannot be forfieted by an individual.

Nevertheless, to answer one of your arguments, you say that "hope" is speaking of something that is yet forthcoming, that we have not attained.

Consider:

Hebrews 6-

17Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

20Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Notice we have fled for refuge, to lay hold on the hope before us.

This hope (v.19), has entered into that within the veil (God's presence).

The hope is Jesus Christ.

Either you have Jesus Christ, or you don't (this is a general statement, BillySunday, it is not directed at you, nor am I calling into question your salvation).

Whereas you might look at this and see hope as something yet to come, I see (and believe Hebrews to teach) that this hope is not "something we are desiring to happen", but is Jesus Christ.

Of course our hope is in Christ and I never said that it wasn't. If we fight the good fight he will keep his promise. However, God created us in his image - which includes the propety of free will. Adam and Eve had it - Satan and one third of the angels had it - and we have it. No one can snatch our salvation from us. No human can - Satan cannot - no one can - except ourselves. Should we choose to, we can walk away. Scripture is very clear about this.

We are tied to Jesus, Who has already entered the presence of God, which is the ultimate fulfillment of God's oath and promise.

We are tied to Jesus by His indwelling Spirit.

God made promise to Abraham, and He kept His promise.

Recall what was asked of Abraham. He cooperated - had he not, well -- you can guess the outcome for us all.

He has made promise to us, and He will keep that promise also.

snip...
God bless.

Yes - He will honor his promise if we continue to accept His grace. However, God will never force us to love and serve him. If that were the case, then hell would be a very empty place.

Peace!

 

[BillySunday1935]

Thank you! This is using scripture to interpret scripture. Something you said could never happen in this universe.

Not at all - I said that scripture cannot interpret itself. That was your claim - not mine. If you wish to amend that statement to say that "we use scripture to interpret scripture" then I would agree with you.

It is good to read former leader's views. However, authorative they are not. They are not apostles and must rely upon the same inspired scriptures that we have to read today. They also needed to search the scriptures to make interpretations of the scriptures. Scripture interpreting scripture.

Scripture CANNOT interpret scripture. THEY were using scripture and Tradition from the apostles to interpret scripture. You cannot lay the bible down on a table then stand back and wait for it to interpret itself.

Excellent tools. However, these commentarians also had to rely upon scripture interpreting scripture as they studied.

Scripture cannot interpret itself - it takes a PERSON READING AND STUDYING IT for the interpretation to take place!!! Why do continue to personify the bible? Is it inspired? YES! Is it authoritative? Yes!

Then why do you say scripture cannot interpret scripture? You have shown me that you used scripture to interpret scripture.

And there is the operative word... "I" used scripture to interpret scripture. However, scripture can no more interpret itself than my car can drive itself.

Preachers and theologians are very influential and this is why James gives a warning to those who desire to hold these positions. These will receive a greater condemnation for what they taught to those masses who generally live by "well, the preacher said so".

Personally, I check every sermon or commentary against the scriptures using bible hermeneutics. This is just me and in reality few parishioners bother to take the time and simply just follow what the preacher or denomination teaches.

I have learned under two pastors in the past 13 years and most of what they taught I believed was dead on with scripture as I examined what they had said. A couple of things I did not agree with.

If our denomination for some odd reason decided to teach a faith plus works gospel I would have to leave that church for bible hermenuetics shows me that it is by grace ye have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

Well, you might need to re-examine your hermeneutical methods because scripture also show the following:

Jeremiah 17:10 (King James Version)
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Revelation 2:23 (King James Version)
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revelation 20:12 (King James Version)
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Of course there is the "sheep and the goats" in Matthew 25:31-46 as-well-as many other places in scripture indicating works as seminal to salvation.

God has given us preachers and teachers who are to study the scriptures and lead and teach the flock. These are not infallible when it comes to what they say the scripture means. In most cases the hearer has the word to read and study for themselves, also the believer has the Holy Spirit whom speaks to the spirit as truths are taught.

For example, I have heard a preacher preach how a woman wearing pants is sin and he went down through several scriptures which he believed proved his position. As I followed along through the scriptures the Spirit did not convict me that he was on target with truth. In fact, my spirit was telling me that he was preaching a personal preference and it was not a truth from God. He would say the opposite I suppose, that the Spirit has convicted him it was truth. These kinds of things will be settled at the judgment seat of Christ.

Bottom line though is, everyone must use scripture to interpret scripture. Which was my point from the beginning.

:jesus:

True - everyone should use scripture to interpret scripture, but scripture is incapable of interpreting itself!

Peace!

 

[BillySunday1935]

Just wanted to touch on the remaining two principles in our current list (we have another list coming up two verses down the page).

Understanding the importance of identifying the components of our current list will help us as we work through one of the most difficult passages in scripture to interpret.

Lets look at it now.

Hebrews 6:1-2 (King James Version)


Hebrews 6


1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2Of the doctrine of baptisms,and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Resurrection of the Dead.

I will combine these two for the sake of time and because in the Old Testament, teaching on either is limited.

While there was a basic belief in life after death for many in the day of Jesus' ministry, I myself cannot say exactly to what extent it went.

I know that the Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the dead, and the Sadducees didn't (that was why they were so sad...you see?)

We see these combined in one verse in Daniel 12:2-

Daniel 12 (King James Version)


Daniel 12

2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


This verse is a good spring-board for what we examine at this time, for it combines the two aspects of our list.

This is a bit vague at first, but remember, this is a basic teaching, not complete.

It says that "many...shall awake", leading some to conclude that there will be those who do not.

For the person who may read this and comfort themselves that when they die, that's the end, take heed to the more complete teaching of Christ:

John 5:24-29 (King James Version)



24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Those who believe have been given everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation. It's right there folks.

25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Who shall hear? The dead. If life were to cease at death, how then would they hear?

These are they that "sleep in the dust of the earth".

26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Jesus is the righteous judge.

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,


ALL that are in the graves shall hear His voice. So we see that the "many" of Daniel is clearly speaking about the number of those who hear, not the percentage (having a connotation of abundance).

29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Sound familiar?

That there was a belief in resurrection is shown by a few verses:

Matthew 22:23-32 (King James Version)

23The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
24Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
25Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27And last of all the woman died also.
28Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.


One of the interesting things about this passage is the fact that Jesus rebukes them for their ignorance of scripture.

Which is exactly what our writer of Hebrews does in the end of chapter 5.

What He is saying is this: though it does not say explicitly "This concerns Resurrection of the dead", Jesus makes it clear that they should have realized that because God said, "I AM the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob", they should have been able to put two and two together, and conclude that these three yet lived.

There are things that scripture teaches us that are not spelled out explicitly, but by looking at the whole of scripture, we will see them.

The teaching of Resurrection of the dead is now more complete, and we have a better understanding than they that did not have the New Testament teaching.

Because of course, it is now "complete".

We know our future resurrection comes, and that of the fate of unbelievers.




...and of eternal judgment.

We also know that we as believers are not in fear of eternal judgement.

There is now no condemnation for them that are in Christ.

See our earlier comparison verse:

John 5:24 (King James Version)

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

There are those who should fear what lies ahead of them.

John 3:18 (King James Version)

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Is there one who believes himself to be neutral in the matter?

God does not see it that way.

By not making a choice, you have made your choice.

Your only hope is to repent, and call on the name of Jesus, and He will save you from the fate that awaits you.

You have His Word on it.

I will stop here for now.

Next we look at our next list in this passage, and try to determine what it consist of and of whom it speaks.

Until then, all questions and comments are welcome,

God Bless.

I thought that your premise was limited to Hebrews...

Peace!

 

[steaver]

Not at all - I said that scripture cannot interpret itself. That was your claim - not mine. If you wish to amend that statement to say that "we use scripture to interpret scripture" then I would agree with you.



Scripture CANNOT interpret scripture. THEY were using scripture and Tradition from the apostles to interpret scripture. You cannot lay the bible down on a table then stand back and wait for it to interpret itself.



Scripture cannot interpret itself - it takes a PERSON READING AND STUDYING IT for the interpretation to take place!!! Why do continue to personify the bible? Is it inspired? YES! Is it authoritative? Yes!



And there is the operative word... "I" used scripture to interpret scripture. However, scripture can no more interpret itself than my car can drive itself.





True - everyone should use scripture to interpret scripture, but scripture is incapable of interpreting itself!

Peace!

Oh boy, ok Billy......bye now.....:wavey:.....God bless you in your using scripture to interpret scripture. Sorry that I confused you there.

:jesus:

 

[BillySunday1935]

Oh boy, ok Billy......bye now.....:wavey:.....God bless you in your using scripture to interpret scripture. Sorry that I confused you there.

:jesus:

Words have meaning steaver - I'm not a mind reader. Perhaps you should consider a different phrase to describe what you mean. So, I guess you are going to continue to ignore the questions that I asked of you... Sweet.

Peace!

 

[steaver]

Words have meaning steaver - I'm not a mind reader. Perhaps you should consider a different phrase to describe what you mean. So, I guess you are going to continue to ignore the questions that I asked of you... Sweet.

Peace!

Sorry Billy, I don't have time to persue wild goose chases. My posting time is limited.

:jesus:

 

[Darrell C]

Hello BillySunday,

I thought that your premise was limited to Hebrews...

Peace!

It is, this is just a little commentary on the surrounding verses of our key verses.

Have you looked at the study?

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Hello BillySunday,

I didn't miss it at all. Sanctification is the process of being made Holy - it is a prcoess not a one-time event.

I would disagree with that, and the book of Hebrews would also.

Lets take a quick walk through scripture, and see a few passages concerning sanctification.

John 10:36 (King James Version)

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Hebrews 10:29 (King James Version)

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Was our Lord continually being sanctified?

1 Corinthians 1:2 (King James Version)

2Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

They are sanctified.

1 Corinthians 6:11 (King James Version)

11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Are washed, are sanctified, are justified.

There is both a daily sanctification and a standing of sanctification.

Do you see justification as a daily process as well? Why would you assume that this aspect (sanctification) is restricted to what we accomplish?

Hebrews 13:12 (King James Version)

12Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

As the suffering was done once (His death), so also is the accomplishment of setting us apart unto Himself.

Now, really think about this, BillySunday:

Hebrews 10:10-14 (King James Version)

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Notice first that it is God's will that we are sanctified by the death of Christ.

Is God continually having to exercise His will in order to keep us sanctified?

If He is, then that flies in the face that we are sanctifying ourselves.

Now here is where we can benefit from this study:

What does he mean we are perfected forever? I know you cannot answer this with your current position, and would say with a certain amount of surety that you have probably always read right through this verse and not even considered its content.

If He has "made us complete" forever, it would stand to reason that we are sanctified forever as well, in our standing before God.

But that is precisely the seminal point that you were making and the one to which I responded. You cannot discuss santification if you already hold to the premise that salvation cannot be forfieted by an individual.

If that is true, then it is just as true that...you cannot discuss sanctification if you already hold to the premise that salvation can be forfeited.

I understand you believe your position is the correct one.

That's fine.

But if you want to convince me (and please, again, this is not an OSAS thread, there have been plenty of those to state your position), you, and all those who deny eternal security will have to do better than you have defending your position.

Of course our hope is in Christ and I never said that it wasn't. If we fight the good fight he will keep his promise. However, God created us in his image - which includes the propety of free will. Adam and Eve had it - Satan and one third of the angels had it - and we have it. No one can snatch our salvation from us. No human can - Satan cannot - no one can - except ourselves. Should we choose to, we can walk away. Scripture is very clear about this.

You very much said your hope is in yourself, and your perserverance.

Example (right here in your reply to try to deny it):

"If we fight the good fight He will keep His promise.

Listen, and understand...God keeps His promises.

This is what Hebrews tells us,

Hebrews 6-

13For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

14Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

15And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

16For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.

17Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:


The promises made by God to Abraham were a done deal. Abraham, having faith, knew this when he was ready to offer up Isaac.

The two immutable things are His Oath and His Promise.

Recall what was asked of Abraham. He cooperated - had he not, well -- you can guess the outcome for us all.

He cooperated? He acted in faith.

Yes - He will honor his promise if we continue to accept His grace. However, God will never force us to love and serve him. If that were the case, then hell would be a very empty place.

Peace!

Negative.

This is the last thing I will say, and I hope it helps:

Consider:

Hebrews 6-

7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

This follows vv.1-6 which are used to deny the security of salvation.

But look at what is being said.

The knowledge of Jesus Christ is likened to the rain. And where does the rain fall? On the whole world.

Where does the knowledge of Jesus Christ (as well as the characteristics of our second list) fall? Again, on the whole world, for whom Jesus died.

Now, consider the outcome of the rain, it has two results:

1-good fruit and God's blessing.

2-Thorns and briars and destruction.

Your position has thornbushes producing good fruit, and then being burned.

Just think about it, and examine these passages again.

Thats all I ask.

God bless.