Perfection

[Darrell C]

Hello Bob,

Hi Bob,
Sorry its taken so long to get a reply across, but between work and my Mother being in the hospital (almost seven weeks now), I've been getting in late.

Only have a few minutes now, but want to keep the dialogue going.

Keep in mind, this will be my perspective being set forth, and we are discussing doctrine.

We can agree to debate in a manner pleasing to the Lord, I know; this will make things more interseting, anyway.

If we go back to the OP - we notice that you quote Matt 5 - and then go over to Hebrews.

My response was to look at the context for the Matt 5 statement that you used as the introduction in the OP.

=====================================

Jesus said, "Be ye perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect." Is this a command Jesus gave to God the Father about humans?

Is it a command Jesus gave to God the Holy Spirit about what to do with the saints?

Or is it a command Jesus gave to the people of God?

The Matt 5 Context is helpful in answering the question.

The intro did exactly what I thought it would (though not so much here, but on another forum.

Man's mind immediately comes to the conclusion that the perfection in Hebrews refers to a sinless temporal life.

This is why I brought that verse into play.

It might surprise you, but I believe that our Lord meant exactly what He said...you must be perfect.

Righteousness was to exceed that of the Pharisees, and they were diligent about following the law.

Hence the instruction about spiritually following God's commands, rather than as the Pharisees, who had an outward appearance of righteousness only.

The problem was this...they could not be perfect.

Why? Because Jesus was yet to make atonement for sin, wherein believers would receive a righteousness that only Christ's death could bestow upon men.

It is certain that Jesus meant exactly what He said, that they must be perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is perfect.

So, when we get to Hebrews, and see that Christ at this point has been made perfect (in that He "fulfilled the Law" as He said He had come to do (Matt. 5), and that He perfects believers, we see a flow in scripture.

Couple that with the teaching of Hebrews that the law could not perfect, it is not hard to see what Hebrews is teaching.

The contrast between the law (Matt. 5), and the New Covenant, when we read He has perfected forever them that are sanctified, we see that we are dealing with the Christians standing before God, as justification is a standing before God.

A few things to look at (I have to get going to the hospital).

As you get into chapter five, our writer is addressing his Hebrew brethren, once Judaizers, "professing" relationship with Christ.

Bracket "dull" in v.11 up to "slothful" of 6:12, and you see the state of who the writer is addressing.

They have yet to go on unto perfection, which I suggest to you is this: they are not born-again.

And how can they be? They need to be retaught the doctrine concerning Christ's coming, showing they do not understand Christ has come.

But, this is something we need to look at in detail as we go. This is just a quick rundown of what I see in Hebrews.

Gotta go,

God bless.

 

[Cutter]

Jesus said, "Be ye perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect."
.

What did you expect Him to say? He is the Son Of God encouraging the children of God in how they should lead their lives. A sports coach doesn't teach anything less than that his athletes should be their best and play their best if they expect to be successful. The very fact that Jesus said this to us should motivate us to strive for perfection even if we cannot attain it as long as we are in this body, as Paul's thoughts in Romans 7:15-25 reveal.

 

[Darrell C]

Hello Cutter,

What did you expect Him to say? He is the Son Of God encouraging the children of God in how they should lead their lives. A sports coach doesn't teach anything less than that his athletes should be their best and play their best if they expect to be successful. The very fact that Jesus said this to us should motivate us to strive for perfection even if we cannot attain it as long as we are in this body, as Paul's thoughts in Romans 7:15-25 reveal.

Jesus was pointing out the fact that they could not be perfect.

I don't view His words as a pep talk, but a statement of fact: the requirement of God's righteousness was far above that which could be attained by mortal man.

This is why He was manifest in the flesh, that He might fulfill the righteous requirement of God for us.

The law was a shadow that could not perfect, but His death brought perfection to those who seek Him.

By the indwelling of God, we are led to pursue holiness, to follow His law.

Not as a means of salvation, but because our very nature is changed, and we are led of His Spirit.

Understand this, I see perfection in Hebrews to refer to our standing, and I am not trying to imply that we can achieve sinlessness in this life: I do not think that is possible.

But, the pursuit of holiness for us is different than for those under the law.

They sought an outward holiness, we seek an inward.

God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

Darrell -

I am sorry to hear about your mother being ill. Will keep that in prayer.

Originally Posted by BobRyan
If we go back to the OP - we notice that you quote Matt 5 - and then go over to Hebrews.

My response was to look at the context for the Matt 5 statement that you used as the introduction in the OP.

=====================================

Jesus said, "Be ye perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect." Is this a command Jesus gave to God the Father about humans?

Is it a command Jesus gave to God the Holy Spirit about what to do with the saints?

Or is it a command Jesus gave to the people of God?

The Matt 5 Context is helpful in answering the question.

Hi Bob,

It might surprise you, but I believe that our Lord meant exactly what He said...you must be perfect.

Righteousness was to exceed that of the Pharisees, and they were diligent about following the law.

Hence the instruction about spiritually following God's commands, rather than as the Pharisees, who had an outward appearance of righteousness only.

The problem was this...they could not be perfect.

Why? Because Jesus was yet to make atonement for sin, wherein believers would receive a righteousness that only Christ's death could bestow upon men.

Two points come up.

1. I agree that the law is not a "means of salvation". If there were no Gospel - then sinless perfection is the only way to heaven and if there were no Gospel fully functioning in before the Cross - then Christ lied every time He said "your sins ARE forgiven" and also Enoch and Elijah did not go to heaven - neither is the Heb 11 list of saints anything more than a list of the "totally depraved unsaved lost".

2. But the ONE gospel was active -- fully functioning in BOTH the OT and NT and thus Enoch and Elijah did go to heaven pre-cross, so also Moses as we see in Matt 17 where Moses and Elijah speak with Christ (Jude allows for Moses going to heaven in the OT in his quote of "The Assumption of Moses").


3. However Jesus' "be YE perfect" is not a command to God - it is a command to the saved saints - the followers of Christ listening to Him that day. It speaks of choosing obedience instead of rebellion. It does not tell them "if you ever have sinned then ignore what I am about to tell you". It is not a command to God the Father "make these saints perfect in some creative accounting-way or else this is not going to work".

So, when we get to Hebrews, and see that Christ at this point has been made perfect (in that He "fulfilled the Law" as He said He had come to do (Matt. 5), and that He perfects believers, we see a flow in scripture.

I agree that Christ alone provides the perfect sinless life demanded by the Law - sinful man - sinful saints - do not.

Couple that with the teaching of Hebrews that the law could not perfect, it is not hard to see what Hebrews is teaching.

The Law "makes nothing perfect". The flawed sinner does not come to the law of God and use the law to wash away their defects.

The Mirror that James speaks about - does not cleans from sin - it points out sin. It can only do that if it is still a valid mirror that accurately points out sin.

Thus in Matt 5 Christ is speaking of the New Covenant condition of the saints with the "Law written on their hearts".

They have yet to go on unto perfection, which I suggest to you is this: they are not born-again.

On the contrary - in Heb 5 they MUST be born again - because it is never true of the lost that they are at the START of the Christian walk but by now they should be teaching others.

The lost do not START the christian walk until they are first born-again, saved, justified only THEN do the "taste of the good things to come", only then do they truely feed on the milk of the word only then are then in the position where they "should" GROW into mature adults.

The lost are not "expected" to "grow" into anything. Only the saved born-again infant-saint is expected to "grow" in such areas.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[billwald]

>On the contrary - in Heb 5 they MUST be born again - because it is never true of the lost that they are at the START of the Christian walk but by now they should be teaching others.

You saying that regeneration is a process and not an event?

 

[Darrell C]

Hello Bob,

Darrell -

I am sorry to hear about your mother being ill. Will keep that in prayer.

Thank you, your prayers are coveted (as is those of all who read this).

Two points come up.

1. I agree that the law is not a "means of salvation". If there were no Gospel - then sinless perfection is the only way to heaven and if there were no Gospel fully functioning in before the Cross - then Christ lied every time He said "your sins ARE forgiven" and also Enoch and Elijah did not go to heaven - neither is the Heb 11 list of saints anything more than a list of the "totally depraved unsaved lost".

This is an excellent example: we see God forgiving sin (which only He can do), not only in the gospel, but through the Covenant of Law.

The Israelites were forgiven for their sin through sacrifice, but they did not have their sin taken away.

It was their sin (committed daily) that was forgiven by the shedding of blood;
but it was their sin (their sin nature) that was not taken away, thus making them unnacceptable to come into God's presence.

I see the gospel as declaring God's redemption for man through the shedding of Jesus' blood (which Hebrews tells us can take away sin).

Those before the Cross who were considered just looked forward to the day when Messiah would come, and, unbeknownst to them, redeem them spiritually, rather than temporally.

Consider:

Hebrews 12-

18For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

19And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

20(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake

22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Our writer contrasts the difference between the giving of the Law with those who come to Christ.

Notice v. 23: notice these are already declared just, and they have been made perfect (complete).

And this:

Hebrews 11-

39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


"These all" (v.39) and "they" (v.40) refer to those listed in chapter 11.

"Us" refers to present-day saints (you and I and all saved after the Cross).

"They" were not made complete yet, because the means of atonement, that which would take away sin rather than cover it, had not been accomplished yet.

2. But the ONE gospel was active -- fully functioning in BOTH the OT and NT and thus Enoch and Elijah did go to heaven pre-cross, so also Moses as we see in Matt 17 where Moses and Elijah speak with Christ (Jude allows for Moses going to heaven in the OT in his quote of "The Assumption of Moses").

Well, this is another issue that many debate, whether men went to heaven before the Cross or not.

I do not think it possible that they did, because their sin had not been atoned for at this point.

Concerning Elijah and Enoch, I lean more toward them not going to heaven when they were caught up, primarily because "it is appointed once for man to die" (poor Lazarus), and my position holds that no man apart from the imputed righteousness of Christ can actually come into God's presence.

There are exceptions to generalities, of course (i.e., men usually rule, Deborah; appointed once...those resurrected, etc.).

But here, scripture does not say they died, specifically, nor does it say they did not die.

See 2 Chronicles 21:12-

12And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

This is after Elijah is caught up.

A simple explanation would be that this was a previously written letter, but I don't know.

Enoch, we are told, did not die, but was translated that he should not see death.

But we are not told he went to be with God.

Satan, sinful as they come, did come into the presence of God (Job 1), but he is not a man, and had previously had access to God.

All that to say...I am not sure if Enoch and Elijah were an exception, which is possible, maybe they were righteous enough to come into God's presence.

Though the scripture says, "no man hath seen God at any time."

Concerning Moses and Elijah on the Mount, there is one point I would make about them not being in heaven: Jesus told Mary that He had not ascended unto His father yet, but He also told the thief on the cross that he (the thief) would be with Him that day in Paradise.

Which raises the question, if He had not ascended yet, and He and the thief went to the same place, whee did Jesus go?

I believe He went to what is called Sheol, the place of the dead.

I also believe the Jewish tradition that there was a compartment for the just, and one for the wicked.

And that Christ redeemed the just from Sheol by His blood.

Now, only the damned go to Sheol.

Just what I believe, it can be argued from either side.

There are people I respect very much who believe the just have always gone to Heaven.

3. However Jesus' "be YE perfect" is not a command to God - it is a command to the saved saints - the followers of Christ listening to Him that day. It speaks of choosing obedience instead of rebellion. It does not tell them "if you ever have sinned then ignore what I am about to tell you". It is not a command to God the Father "make these saints perfect in some creative accounting-way or else this is not going to work".

Remember that when He gave this command, none present were saved, and could not be until Christ's death.

Perfect is used throughout the New Testament to refer to what I view as snctification...the daily pursuit of holiness.

This is why Hebrews is significant, it is clearly not referring to this cleansing process.

But, I hope to show you why and how I see it that way.

I agree that Christ alone provides the perfect sinless life demanded by the Law - sinful man - sinful saints - do not.

Agreed. Which is why Enoch and Elijah are an anomaly.

 

[Darrell C]

Hello again, had to do this in two parts.

The Law "makes nothing perfect". The flawed sinner does not come to the law of God and use the law to wash away their defects.

The Mirror that James speaks about - does not cleans from sin - it points out sin. It can only do that if it is still a valid mirror that accurately points out sin.

Thus in Matt 5 Christ is speaking of the New Covenant condition of the saints with the "Law written on their hearts".

I agree with this.

The law still shows us our sin, and is still just as true today as it was then.

But the pre-cross believer did not have the knowledge of turning to Christ in faith for the forgiveness of sin...they had only the knowledge of fulfilling the law for their sins to be covered.

Right after the remission of sins by sacrifice was accomplished for them, they began all over concerning their need to sacrifice for their sin.

This is why their sacrifice was continual, and ours are not.

Also, in Matthew 5, there are no New Covenant believers, because the New Covenant did not start until Christ died.

Hebrews 9-


14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Notice that the blood of Christ purges the conscience, as opposed to the law-

Hebrews 10
1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

As I noted in the study, we are not engaged in dead works as Christians, but are created in Christ Jesus unto good works.


15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Here we see Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant, not "will be the Mediator".

Notice that the transgressions before the Cross were redeemed by His death.

How is it that , Lot, for example, could be declared Just before the Cross, if his transgressions have not been redeemed?

Notice also, the called receive the "eternal promise", and my emphasis now would be on "promise".

This is the "rest" that Canaan was only a picture/shadow of.


16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

The words testament and covenant are the same in this passage.

The point is that the "testament", or "covenant", required death.

In the case of the Covenant of Law, it was the death (blood) of animals.

In the case of The New Covenant, it was the death (blood) of Jesus.

And the covenant did not precede the death in either covenant.

17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Again, the requirement of death.

18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.[/

Re-emphasis on the requirement of death, and that the Covenant of Law had this as well.

SIZE]

On the contrary - in Heb 5 they MUST be born again - because it is never true of the lost that they are at the START of the Christian walk but by now they should be teaching others.

The lost do not START the christian walk until they are first born-again, saved, justified only THEN do the "taste of the good things to come", only then do they truely feed on the milk of the word only then are then in the position where they "should" GROW into mature adults.

The lost are not "expected" to "grow" into anything. Only the saved born-again infant-saint is expected to "grow" in such areas.

in Christ,

Bob

This is something that will take some examination, but I will just make a brief comment or two.

I will try in the morning to get further with the study concerning the second list, which most see as Christian characteristics.

But consider:

Hebrews 6-

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost

Jesus is the light of the world.

The same word for enlightened is also found here:

John 1:9 (King James Version)

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Here is the Strong's definition:

5461. photizo fo-tid'-zo from 5457; to shed rays, i.e. to shine or (transitively) to brighten up (literally or figuratively):--enlighten, illuminate, (bring to, give) light, make to see.

Enlightenment should not bring an automatic assumption of salvation.

Though enlightenment comes from the Lord, I think you would agree that not all who gain knowledge of Christ actually gain Christ.

If that were true, then evangelism would be much easier.

In 1 John 2, John speaks of those who "went out from us", but 'were not of us", if they had been, "they would have continued with us".

There are those associated with the Church and the things of the Church which are not saved.

Only the test of time will reveal true believers.

Well, I see this is getting a little long (I had only meant to make a few comments), so I will end here for now.

The next part of the study will examine the second list, and it will look at these caharacteristics, which I believe not only are they not just Christian characteristics, but characteristics that people we know were not saved had and were given by the Lord during His ministry.

Gotta go for now, but again ask for your prayers for my mother (Virginia), that her surgery will heal, and she might come home soon.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Hello Bob,

There are two parts to the previous post...got a little long-winded.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Hello to All,

First, I would like to apologize for seeming to abandon this thread, but things have been busy.



For those who know about my mother being in the hospital and have prayed for her, I am happy to say, she is now home, and seems to be doing well (she has had back surgery and had about a foot of colon removed); your prayers are still coveted (her name is Virginia).



Our next segment will touch briefly on Hebrews 6:4-6, a hotly debated section.



But, as someone pointed out, this is a little off-track with the study at hand: looking at the theme of Perfecction/Completion as found in Hebrews.



For those who have not read the thread in it's entirety, please do so before commenting, as your comments have more than likely already been addressed, and the replies to your comments and questions are probably there for you.



So, here we go...and remember, lets get an understanding of perfection, and then we can debate the implications.







Hebrews 6:4-6 (King James Version)

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.





It is viewed by many that these characteristics describe the born-again Christian, but there are just as many who see this as a mis-interpretation.



Enlightenment


Enlightenment is the first step on the path to salvation, and is a necessary stage of God's calling upon the heart of the unregenerate.



To make this post short, and to get back to our point of interest, lets look quickly at "partakers of the Holy Ghost."





Partakers of the Holy Ghost



Quite simply, all who are being drawn by the Spirit of God partake of the Holy Spirit.



In the ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ, He empowered His disciples to perform certain ministries which, without the Holy Spirit, could not have been accomplished.



All of the disciples of Christ were partakers of the Holy Ghost, and this includes Judas...who cast out devils, healed, and preached the gospel.



Was he saved?



No. Not only that, but actually, none of the disciples were born-again at that time.



But, they were partakers of the Holy Ghost.





Have Tasted...


The remaining points of this list have to do with tasting.



Christ tasted of death for every man...was this a lasting condition?



Of course not.



Our addressed hearers have tasted of:



1-The heavenly gift (salvation through Christ)



2-The good word of God (God's revelation which I believe encompasses not only the Gospel, but the entirety of God's revealed will for man found in scripture, which this group addressed were ignorant of).



3-The powers of the world to come (In Christ's ministry and in the early Church, there was a "preview" of what is to come in the Millennial Kingdom, which will fulfill God's temporal promises to Israel, and will find total fulfillment in the eternal state).





The important thing to keep in mind in this passage is that of these, they have but tasted.



Many benefit from God's blessings though they are not saved. God's blessing are likened to the rain in vv. 7-8:



7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.


It is the end result of those blessings which are important.



Verse 7 represents the effectual calling of God, whereas verse 8 represents those which reject God.



These are they which have resisted the Holy Spirit, as the Hebrews were very much in the habit of doing.



For the "Christian" today to assume that going through the motions of Christianity (church attendance, tithing, singing in the choir, etc.) is equal to salvation is just as much a mistake today as it was in the first century.



These are ritualistic in nature and what some use to validate their salvation.



Knowledge is another "validation" of salvation.



But it is the indwelling of God that is the difference between those who "think" they are saved, and those who "know" they are saved.



Those resting in Christ are given the assurance of their salvation in Him and will not accomplish the actions that are warned about in Hebrews:



Falling Away


6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.



The belief that the born-again believer is indwelt by the Spirit of God, and that this union cannot be broken is what I believe to be the foundation of assurance.



Crucifying the Son of God afresh is a return to the Levitical sacrifice. This is the apostasy spoken of here.



They cannot be renewed to repentance if they are rejecting His sacrifice.



It's that simple.



Though some will reject Christ (and the drawing of God through the Holy Spirit) to the point in which God gives them over to themselves, while a person lives and is being called of God, there is always the possibility of repentance.



That is all for now. Questions and comments are expected and welcome, but I would like to get this thread back on track...and then debate issues such as these.



God bless.

 

[steaver]

Your doing a fine job brother :thumbs: A good and proper exegesis is always tough on those caught up in traditions of men (or women) and are unwilling to examine their own biases.

Carry on......:wavey:

 

[Darrell C]

Hello Steaver,

Thank you brother,

God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

>On the contrary - in Heb 5 they MUST be born again - because it is never true of the lost that they are at the START of the Christian walk but by now they should be teaching others.

You saying that regeneration is a process and not an event?

No regeneration is an event - the new birth happens after the lost person chooses to accept salvation.

It is the "regenerate" the Born-Again that is "supposed" to grow in faith.

The lost are not supposed to "have grown" or to have "matured from milk to meat" in terms of their understanding of doctrine. Thus Heb 5 is written to the Christian that has chosen to "stall" in their understanding of truth.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Darrell C]

Hello to All,

As we progress through the book of Hebrews, we can not help but see the superiority of Christ to the Levitical Priesthood.

As we have looked at the passage that runs from 5:9 (in which Christ is made complete) to 6:6, and spent a little time with it, we can see the theme of perfection (completion) thread its way through it.

This is a significant passage to examine, and I hope to come back to it and discuss it in further detail, but for now, we get back to the study.

We can properly parenthesize 5:11-6:12, based upon our writer pointing out the spiritual lethargy of the audience:


Hebrews

5:11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

6:12That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.



The words dull and slothful are both the same word, which is this:

3576. nothros no-thros' from a derivative of 3541; sluggish, i.e. (literally) lazy, or (figuratively) stupid:--dull, slothful.

What He is addressing is the issue of certain Hebrews associated with the more complete teaching of Christ not putting forth the effort to embrace Christ.

Consider:


Hebrews

6:11And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:


"The end" is this:


5056. telos tel'-os from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination (literally, figuratively or indefinitely), result (immediate, ultimate or prophetic), purpose); specially, an impost or levy (as paid):--+ continual, custom, end(-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare 5411.


The point the author is exhorting them to aim at as a limit is to fully embrace Christ...not to return to Judaism.

Many will look at this (unto the end) as a call to perserverance, but when we see the usage of "completion" in Hebrews, we can recognize more easily what our writer (ultimately the Holy Spirit) is saying to them (and to all of us).

Amazing, isn't it?

Let's look at this passage focusing on our key verses only, and see the flow of scripture:


Hebrews 5


8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


Hebrews 6

1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

11And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:


Thats all for now.

God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Two points come up.

1. I agree that the law is not a "means of salvation". If there were no Gospel - then sinless perfection is the only way to heaven and if there were no Gospel fully functioning in before the Cross - then Christ lied every time He said "your sins ARE forgiven" and also Enoch and Elijah did not go to heaven - neither is the Heb 11 list of saints anything more than a list of the "totally depraved unsaved lost".

This is an excellent example: we see God forgiving sin (which only He can do), not only in the gospel, but through the Covenant of Law.

On the contrary Heb 10:104 makes it clear that no animal blood - no animal sacrifice ever forgave a single sin.

Gal 3 makes it clear that no requirement of the law ever brought salvation.

This is in the context of Gal 1:6-11 that there has only been in all of time ONE Gospel (good news) of salvation.

In Heb 8 - the Gospel is described as the "New Covenant" and it brings not only adoption, but real forgiveness of sins and "The Law written on the heart" (the New birth).

This was true pre-cross as Christ points out to Nicodemus in John 3.

The Israelites were forgiven for their sin through sacrifice, but they did not have their sin taken away.

On the contrary - forgiveness of sin by God always results in sins taken away and as such Elijah, Enoch and Moses were all in heaven with God - before the Cross.

It was all done through the "ONE Gospel".

Heb 4:1-2 "The Gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also".

It was their sin (committed daily) that was forgiven by the shedding of blood;

Again - Heb 10:1-4 makes it clear that not one single sin was ever forgiven by animal blood.

Romans 4 makes it clear that in calling Abraham "the Father of many nations" God is calling those things that have not yet happened - as though they have.

Thus the merrits of the future death of Christ - were fully applied OT such that Christ could say "your sins ARE forgiven" not "your sins WILL be forgiven some day".

God's Elijah, Enoch, and Moses examples are simply irrefutable proof that He was "really" forgiving sins pre-cross.

More later.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Darrell C]

Hello Bob,

No regeneration is an event - the new birth happens after the lost person chooses to accept salvation.

It is the "regenerate" the Born-Again that is "supposed" to grow in faith.

Agreed.

The lost are not supposed to "have grown" or to have "matured from milk to meat" in terms of their understanding of doctrine. Thus Heb 5 is written to the Christian that has chosen to "stall" in their understanding of truth.

in Christ,

Bob

This is where understanding perfection helps to clear this up.

Think about it, how is it that these "believers" who have been associated with with the teaching of Christ long enough that they should be teaching it to others are unable to understand Christ's priesthood?

They must be taught again the teaching about Christ's coming.

Then, they are told to leave Judaism.

The writer is pointing out that there those among the assembled that are/were in danger of remaining in or returning to Judaism.

The contrast throughout the book is Christ (New Covenant) as opposed to the Old Covenant.

You are correct to imply the connotation of "maturity" in 5:11-14, but that their problem was their being hesitant to "leave" Judaism and fully embrace Christ for Who He was is made clear in the next verse (6:1).

They were not simply guilty of being immature believers, but were guilty (or, in danger of) of "crucifying Christ again".

How can you do that?

By sacrificing Him in type with the Levitical sacrifices...by looking to those sacrifices for atonement from sin.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Hello Bob,

This is an excellant post, and I am in agreement with most of what you say here, but I would just point out that when dealing with sin, there are two aspects we must consider:

1-daily sin (which were forgiven through animal sacrifice)

2-the sin nature (which is forgiven through the shed blood of Christ only).

On the contrary Heb 10:104 makes it clear that no animal blood - no animal sacrifice ever forgave a single sin.

Gal 3 makes it clear that no requirement of the law ever brought salvation.

You are correct that the law never brought salvation, but concerning forgiveness of their daily sin, consider:


Hebrews 9

22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Purged is this:

2511. katharizo kath-ar-id'-zo from 2513; to cleanse (literally or figuratively):--(make) clean(-se), purge, purify

Remission is this:

859. aphesis af'-es-is from 863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon:--deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.

It is the same word that is used concerning John the Baptist:



Luke 3
1Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,

2Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.

3And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

John the Baptist did not balk at preaching remission of sin (I view John as an "Old Covenant" prophet), yet, John did not know with certainty that Jesus was the Christ:

Luke 7:20 (King James Version)

20When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? [/SIZE]

So what did John believe forgiveness would be brought about by?

Our list in Hebrews 6:1-2 can answer that.

John did proclaim Him the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world, but just before his death, needed to ask again if Jesus was the Messiah.

Consider also:

Leviticus 4:20-34 (King James Version)

20And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

21And he shall carry forth the bullock without the camp, and burn him as he burned the first bullock: it is a sin offering for the congregation.

22When a ruler hath sinned, and done somewhat through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD his God concerning things which should not be done, and is guilty;

23Or if his sin, wherein he hath sinned, come to his knowledge; he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a male without blemish:

24And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the goat, and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the LORD: it is a sin offering.

25And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out his blood at the bottom of the altar of burnt offering.

26And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.

27And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;

28Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.

29And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

30And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar.

31And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

32And if he bring a lamb for a sin offering, he shall bring it a female without blemish.

33And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay it for a sin offering in the place where they kill the burnt offering.

34And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar:

35And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

Forgive me Bob (no pun intended), for using up so much room with this.

But it is crucial in our understanding to see that the Levitcal sacrifice did bring forgiveness for sin, yet, it did not do so "completely".

It was a temporary forgiveness of sins committed in the daily life, but not an effective forgiveness for the sin nature that separates man from God.

This is the purpose of this study, it will help us to see the difference between the forgiveness of the Old Covenant, and the complete forgiveness through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

We are told plainly in 10:1-4 that which the Levitical sacrifice

This is in the context of Gal 1:6-11 that there has only been in all of time ONE Gospel (good news) of salvation.

In Heb 8 - the Gospel is described as the "New Covenant" and it brings not only adoption, but real forgiveness of sins and "The Law written on the heart" (the New birth).

AMEN!

This was true pre-cross as Christ points out to Nicodemus in John 3.

Pre-Cross Saints had salvation on credit, so to speak.

The fact that their "sin" was forgiven pre-cross due to their faith in God is real and true.

But, they were not made "complete" until Christ's death on the Cross:

Hebrews 11-

39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

On the contrary - forgiveness of sin by God always results in sins taken away and as such Elijah, Enoch and Moses were all in heaven with God - before the Cross.

Again, 10:1-4 makes it clear that, though their sins were forgiven through the Levitcal sacrifice, they were not taken away.

Hebrews 10 (King James Version)

Hebrews 10
1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.


2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

It was all done through the "ONE Gospel".

Heb 4:1-2 "The Gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also".

AMEN!

Again - Heb 10:1-4 makes it clear that not one single sin was ever forgiven by animal blood.

AMEN!

Romans 4 makes it clear that in calling Abraham "the Father of many nations" God is calling those things that have not yet happened - as though they have.

Thus the merrits of the future death of Christ - were fully applied OT such that Christ could say "your sins ARE forgiven" not "your sins WILL be forgiven some day".

God's Elijah, Enoch, and Moses examples are simply irrefutable proof that He was "really" forgiving sins pre-cross.

Again, their sin was indeed forgiven them, but it had as of yet to be taken away.

More later.

in Christ,

Bob

God bless.

 

[billwald]

>4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

If it is not possible for baptism to take away sins then why do you bother?

The sacrifices serve the same function as baptism - a public recognition of a past event.

 

[billwald]

>Again, their sin was indeed forgiven them, but it had as of yet to be taken away.

DOUBLE TALK!

 

[billwald]

>No regeneration is an event - the new birth happens after the lost person chooses to accept salvation.

How does a person under Satan's control "choose to accept?"

 

[Darrell C]

Hello Billwald,

>4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

If it is not possible for baptism to take away sins then why do you bother?

The sacrifices serve the same function as baptism - a public recognition of a past event.

Baptism is a symbolic picture of one dying, being buried, and rising again from the dead. Application can be made to Christ's death, but I see it as more applicable to the person being baptised.

Baptism is also symbolic of washing.

The key is that it is symbolic.

When you partake of the Lord's Supper, do you skip your next meal?

Of course not, because the "supper" is symbolic.

Why bother with that, then?

Because it is symbolic of the death of Christ.

The body/bread and the blood/wine together represent His death.

You don't partake of Communion with just the bread, or with just the wine, but you partake of both which picture His death.


To liken the sacrifices of the Levitical Priesthood to Christian baptism is in grave error:

The sacrifice of the Old Covenant was a picture of the future sacrifice of Christ. The baptisms of Judaism, more properly called washings, were for the purpose of ceremonial cleansing.

Christian baptism, is a public pronouncement by the believer of his association with Christ, as well as a picture (representing) the believer's "death, burial, and resurrection."


The big difference is this:

The Levitical sacrifice did bring about a temporary forgiveness, whereas Christian baptism does not.

When a believer (born-again) has gotten to the point where he is being baptised, he/she has already received forgiveness.

This is not to say that everyone who is baptised is a born-again believer.

Hope that helps.

God bless.