Perfection

[Darrell C]

This thread is meant for the edification of the saints in understanding the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice and the assurance that God has done what He said He will do.

Just so no one misunderstands, this thread is not speaking of temporal life, but the eternal life we have in Christ.

Jesus said, "Be ye perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect."

Is this possible for man? Yes, but it is The Author and Perfecter of our faith that makes us perfect in Him...it is not our works, because no man will stand before God and boast.

Please take this seriously, and study the verses offered, putting aside your particular doctrine for awhile.

We can look at scripture together (and discuss it) as brothers and sisters in Christ.

Hebrews

2:10-For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect (5048) through sufferings.

5048-teleioo: from 5046; to complete, i.e. (lit.) accomplish, or (fig.) consumate (in character). Translated: consecrate, finish, fulfill, (make)perfect.

5:9-And being made perfect (5048), he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

5:14-But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age (5046), who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

5046-teleios:complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); completeness. Translated: (of) full age, man, and perfect.

6:1-Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection (5047), not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

5047-teleiotes-(the state of) completeness (ment. or mor.). Translated perfection (ness).

7:11-If therefore perfection (5050) were by the Levitical Priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should arise after the order of Melchisadec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

5050-teleiosis-; from 5048, (the act) completion, i.e. (of prophecy) verification, or (of expiation [to make amends for]); absolution [remission of sins].

7:19-For the law made nothing perfect (5048), but the bringing in of a better hope did, by the which we draw nigh unto God.

7:28-For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated (5048) for evermore.

9:9-Which was a figure for the time present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect (5048).

10:1-For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which were offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect (5048).

10:14-For by one offering he hath perfected (5048) forever them that are sanctified.

11:39-And all these, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise.
40-God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect (5048).

12:2-Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher (5051) of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

5051-teleiotes-from 5048; a completer, i.e. consumater: -finisher.

Please look through these and see if an evident contrast of the Old and New is made clear.

Would like to know your thoughts on these.

God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus said, "Be ye perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect."

Is this a command Jesus gave to God the Father about humans?

Is it a command Jesus gave to God the Holy Spirit about what to do with the saints?

Or is it a command Jesus gave to the people of God?

Hint: Context might be helpful in your efforts to answer this question.

Matt 5

42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

What say you?

Notice how Paul affirms this teaching in Romans 2 ?

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the [b]righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: [/b]

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be [b]tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil[/b], of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Darrell C]

Hello Bob,

Please stay on topic.

Have you looked at the verses and definitions?

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Hello Bob,

But, to answer your question (I have 2 minutes before I have to leave):

If you seek to be justified by the law, you must acomplish it perfectly.

It is the righteous standard of God we are judged by, not man's.

God bless.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Darrell: If you seek to be justified by the law, you must acomplish it perfectly.

HP: True, but no one seeks justification by the law, that I have read on this list, as in regard to sins that are past in relationship to salvation. NOTHING man can do in the past, or the present, or in the future is meritorious in that it can atone for the least sin. A believer is not justified for past sins by his formed intents, but he can be in a state of justification and remain there if his subsequent formed intents are in accordance to God’s laws. Any man that violates God’s moral law is in need of the blood of Christ being applied to that past sin(s). As we move forward from that justification and forgiveness, the state of our heart towards God and His law is seen by our forming intents in agreement to His moral law, and righteous intents are indeed justified before God.

In a sense, subsequent to salvation, our formed intents are our justified before God as acts of righteousness, in that they are evidence of a changed heart and desire to obey God. Formed intents in obedience to God’s commands are indeed that which God and others can witness to verify the changed heart as we act in accordance to God’s law. Those acts are indeed justified before God on their own merit and are pleasing to God, NOT to atone for sins that are past, but as obedience as God requires of all that are saved. As such those acts can be rightfully said to be justified. Scripture reminds of this sense of justification in the life of Abraham. Jas 2:21 “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?” This act by Abraham could not have acted as his justification for past sins in the least, but as we move from justification for past sins and choose righteousness, those sunsequent rightous intents and acts are in fact justified on their own merit. God sees such acts of righteousness praiseworthy and rewards us for our obedience. Here is David on the subject: Ps 18:24 "Therefore hath the LORD recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his eyesight."

Justification is again thought of in two senses. It can be said we are and are not justified by our formed intents. Nothing other than the blood of Christ atone for sin. Having made that sacrifice, God accounts righteousness to us on the account of what Christ has accomplished as we place our faith in that atoning work. Still the only sins that are covered by that act of faith are sins that are past, NOT sins that we might commit in the future. Once receiving justification for sins that are past God requires obedience out of us in the future, without which we stand accountable for such formed intents in disobedience to known commandments of God.

Intents and subsequent acts subsequent to salvation that are formed righteously in accordance to God’s laws, are indeed justified in the eyes of God on their own merit and accounted to us as righteousness. Again they do not cover for the least of sins that are past, but once cleaned by the blood of Christ they are indeed accounted to us as righteous acts. Any person washed by the blood of the Lamb can not only act righteously but it is expected out of us if we love God. Ro 12:1 ¶ “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.”

Once again, such righteous acts have absolutely no bearing on our initial salvation, nor could they, but they are accounted to us as righteousness and as such are precious in the eyes of God to be rewarded often in this world and certainly in the world to come.

Darrell: It is the righteous standard of God we are judged by, not man's.

HP: That remark IMO could lend itself to misunderstanding. The righteous standard by which God judges us in always in ‘relationship to’ our finite abilities and measure of understanding as men. God is Just. He does not hold us accountable in the same standard as He does the angels or other sentient beings, but rather holds us accountable to the measure and light an abilities we have as finite human beings. You are correct in that it is ‘His standard’ and not one developed or devised or by ourselves.

 

[Darrell C]

hi Heavenly Pilgrim,

Thank you for your reply,

Though I would agree with most of what you have stated, I hold the belief that concerning justification, it deals with the "sin" of man, not the sins.

This is what Hebrews is getting across to us: that "sins" were continuously atoned for under the Mosaic Law,

And that Sin was dealt with by the one sacrifice of Christ.

Back on topic:

What does it mean that those who are sanctified "once" are perfected forever by the one sacrifice of Christ?

God bless.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Darrell: Though I would agree with most of what you have stated, I hold the belief that concerning justification, it deals with the "sin" of man, not the sins.

HP: Hows that?

 

[Darrell C]

hi Heavenly Pilgrim,

HP: Hows that?

The book of Hebrews makes it clear that by one sacrifice (His) we are sanctified once, and perfected (made complete [in Him]) forever.

I know some will kick against the goads to propose their doctrine, but this is very clear.

In regard to "sin", all men are guilty. In regard to "sins", again, all men are guilty.

For those who have been set apart by Christ, their "sin" having been atoned for by His sacrifice, their "sins" are also paid for by this one sacrifice.

Think about it (and this is the message of Hebrews): if your sins still needed to be atoned for, that would require another sacrifice.

You cannot deny this, because this is how the Levitical System works.

Sin, sacrifice; Sin, sacrifice; Sin, sacrifice...

Hebrews 10
1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


Notice that the Levitical sacrifice was repeated over and over. It could not cleanse the conscience, nor take away sins.

Our writer tells us plainly that Christ's sacrifice did.

Notice verse two: if "sins" had been dealt with by those sacrifices, they would have ceased.

Now, do the math: why does Jesus need to offer one sacrifice?

I hope you will seriously look at this, H.P.

You can have assurance of salvation and still believe that we fulfill the law (though we do so spiritually and in truth, rather than the Judaizers, who do so by the letter).

Another verse that pertains to this discussion: Hebrews 7-

11If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

15And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

16Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

17For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

18For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

God bless.

 

[Matt Black]

Teleios, (together with its associated similar words, teleioo, teleiotes, and teleiosis) is used frequently by Paul. You will have noticed by now that I have failed to give translations of these Greek words yet, and therein lies part of the problem: teleios and co have multiple meanings. Just as a Greek would have trouble translating our word ‘love’ (is it agape, eros, storge or phile?), so too do we have difficulties with teleios. Basically, it can be translated, inter alia, in all or some of the following ways: complete, finished, perfect, having-achieved-the-end-result, accomplished, fulfilled, full-grown, fully-developed, adult and mature. It derives from the Greek noun telos, meaning end/ goal, and, as a further aid to our understanding of the word, the teleological school of philosophical thought essentially asserts that ‘the end justifies the means’ (e.g.: that the bombing of Hiroshima was morally right because it saved lives in the long-run). To a degree, the meaning can vary according to the context but I would suggest that, by and large, teleios (and the associated words above) encompasses all of these meanings and that Paul’s use of it in his soteriology demonstrates conceptually the same kind of dialectic tension as between now and not yet which we have with the Kingdom of God being at hand. Judge for yourselves by these examples of the use of teleios-rooted words, both in Pauline texts and other New Testament writings: 1 Cor 14:20; 2 Cor 12:9; Eph 4:13; Phil 1:6; 3:12-16; Matt 5:48: Heb 2:10; 10:1; 12:23; James 1:4; and 1 Jn 2:5.

 

[Darrell C]

Teleios, (together with its associated similar words, teleioo, teleiotes, and teleiosis) is used frequently by Paul. You will have noticed by now that I have failed to give translations of these Greek words yet, and therein lies part of the problem: teleios and co have multiple meanings. Just as a Greek would have trouble translating our word ‘love’ (is it agape, eros, storge or phile?), so too do we have difficulties with teleios. Basically, it can be translated, inter alia, in all or some of the following ways: complete, finished, perfect, having-achieved-the-end-result, accomplished, fulfilled, full-grown, fully-developed, adult and mature. It derives from the Greek noun telos, meaning end/ goal, and, as a further aid to our understanding of the word, the teleological school of philosophical thought essentially asserts that ‘the end justifies the means’ (e.g.: that the bombing of Hiroshima was morally right because it saved lives in the long-run). To a degree, the meaning can vary according to the context but I would suggest that, by and large, teleios (and the associated words above) encompasses all of these meanings and that Paul’s use of it in his soteriology demonstrates conceptually the same kind of dialectic tension as between now and not yet which we have with the Kingdom of God being at hand. Judge for yourselves by these examples of the use of teleios-rooted words, both in Pauline texts and other New Testament writings: 1 Cor 14:20; 2 Cor 12:9; Eph 4:13; Phil 1:6; 3:12-16; Matt 5:48: Heb 2:10; 10:1; 12:23; James 1:4; and 1 Jn 2:5.

Hi Matt,

Thank you for your input,

The Strong's definitions of the various words were given in a previous post, and, yes, they certainly are translated by a number of words.

Ultimately, we want to find the meaning in the context of the passage, and this shouldn't be too hard.

For example, Christ is the Author and Finisher of our faith:

12:2-Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher (5051) of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

5051-teleiotes-from 5048; a completer, i.e. consumater: -finisher.

Context would imply that the translators did a good job with this...He is the cause and finisher of of our faith.

One thing I prefer to do in this thread is keep the variants of telos confined to the book of Hebrews.

While Paul did use this word in other books, the content of Hebrews must be looked at internally.

I am not saying we cannot compare scripture with scripture, only this: we are looking at the use of these words in this book.

I personally think it was Paul who was the writer, but I am no dogmatic about this, and do not know.

But, thanks again for your input. Hope you will join in the study.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Perfection Verse One (2:10)

Hebrews 2
1Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

We find in verses 1-4 the first of several warnings given to the recipients of this letter, Hebrews of the first century who had associated themselves with Christ. For those who would turn to Christ and renounce Judaism, it wa a hard road to follow, much less stay on.

V. 2 contrasts the law with faith in Christ.

5For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

6But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

7Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Vv. 5-8 refer to man.

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Note that God manifest in the flesh "tasted" death for every man.

The permanence (or lack thereof) of the tasting of something will come up later.

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect(5048) through sufferings.

-5048-teleioo: from 5046; to complete, i.e. (lit.) accomplish, or (fig.) consumate (in character). Translated: consecrate, finish, fulfill, (make)perfect.

I will point out again that I am not a greek scholar, and probably couldn't even be considered a student. I rely on Strong's concordance for my definitions. If there is a greek scholar out there that would like to join in, that would be good.

I will say that we can gain a working understanding of the text as it is translated, and the definitions I think help even further.

I doubt that any would argue that the usage speaks of completing here.




That's all for me tonight.

Hope there are some who are looking at these verses and seeking to understand what they mean for the Christian today.

God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 5

42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The above posted by me as pertaining to the concept of "Perfect"

Please stay on topic.

Have you looked at the verses and definitions?

God bless.

Indeed - it appears you are looking at what the Bible means when it commands us to be perfect.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Darrell C]

Hello Bob,

The above posted by me as pertaining to the concept of "Perfect"




Indeed - it appears you are looking at what the Bible means when it commands us to be perfect.

in Christ,

Bob

Not exactly.

As already stated, this thread is meant to examine the theme of perfection in Hebrews.

While the use of these words are found elsewhere, it is what the writer (and the Author, the Holy Spirit) of Hebrews is conveying that we seek to understand.

Perfection is applied to Christ, His sacrifice, believers, and the Old Testament saints.

I hope you will join in on this study in sincere desire to understand God's word, and not turn this into a defense of your doctrine only.

Though I believe we should defend doctrine, right now we are simply looking at the scripture together.

If you looked at the list of verses, how about commenting on those?

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Hello again, Bob.

The above posted by me as pertaining to the concept of "Perfect"




Indeed - it appears you are looking at what the Bible means when it commands us to be perfect.

in Christ,

Bob

I also wanted to say that in Hebrews, perfection is not something that is commanded of believers, it is something brought about by God.

As we see perfection in relation to the law, you will see that the law is incomplete, which is the reason for Christ coming as He did.

Be patient, Bob, and look into these things, and I assure you, you will be blessed by the book of Hebrews.

Also, can you honestly say you have spent much time studying Hebrews?

Not trying to test you, its a sincere question: I find very few people who actually spend much time in Hebrews.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Hello to All

Again we enter into the book of Hebrews.

A book often overlooked, but one that can both clarify the doctrine concerning Christ's death, and put to silence those who would seek to bring those who approach Christ into the bondage of the law.


The contrasts found in Hebrews make it clear: Christ is superior in every way.

Let's look at another verse:

Hebrews

2:10-For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect (5048) through sufferings.

5048-teleioo: from 5046; to complete, i.e. (lit.) accomplish, or (fig.) consumate (in character). Translated: consecrate, finish, fulfill, (make)perfect.

5:9-And being made perfect (5048), he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

I've included the first verse because these should be viewed together.

My own thoughts to get the ball rolling.

As you know, I believe that all scripture centers around God, and His saving work. Namely, that He would reconcile man to Himself in the Person of the Son (which is how I believe He has always dealt with man when doing so face to face [i.e., Gen. 18]).

Before the Cross, men were declared Just, but their salvation could not be completed until the sacrifice for their sin was accomplished.

The law was given which included sacrifice that looked forward to the Cross, which is similar to Communion (and the sacrifice of the Millennial Kingdom) that looks back to the Cross.

In 2:10 we are told that Christ was made complete through suffering, and in 5:9, after being made complete, He became the author (lit. the cause) of salvation.

Your thoughts?

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Hello to All

Some will be shocked to hear this, but the Book of Hebrews puts the question of "eternal salvation" to rest.

That one can lose their salvation becomes a moot question when one understands how salvation was accomplished.

By Christ, and Christ alone.

The Captain of our salvation was made complete through sufferings, which include the fulfillment of the scripture pertaining to Messiah, both in His Life (He was bruised) and in His death (He died and rose again according to the scriptures).

To assume that His "perfection" was that He lived a good life, and thus became acceptable to God, able to die the needful death, is to misunderstand this concept altogether.

God was well-pleased with His Son before He died, in fact before He was manifest in the flesh.

We have looked at completion in 2:10 and 5:9, and discussed it not to its full extent, but in order to keep things going, I'll present the next verse.

In this passage we find our key words in in close proximity with each other, and it is my opinion that they are directly tied together.

Consider:


Hebrews 5:10-6:1 (King James Version)



10Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Hebrews 6

1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Now, for the time being, I have stopped us at 6:1.

Don't worry, we aren't leaving anything out, we are just examining these verses for now (I predict several pages of disagreement here).

In v. 14 of ch. 5, we find:

5046. teleios tel'-i-os from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588) completeness:--of full age, man, perfect.

For now, I will just say that some translations have "mature", and in one sense, this is what our writer is speaking of.

But what is often forgotten (or just never considered), is that it is saying that "solid food belongs to those of full age/those who are complete."

Those being addressed are not.

In fact, they are lazy, infantile, and ignorant of even the Old Testament ABC teachings about Christ.

But they're saved, right?

I believe some of them are, but I also believe some are not.

It is automatically assumed that this passage is speaking about born-again Christians only.

But I believe by understanding the concept of perfection found in Hebrews will clear this up.

I will ask this, if they don't understand the ABCs of O.T. teaching concerning Christ, how can we expect them to understand JESUS' teaching about Himself?

Or, if they are lazy to hear (dull of hearing), unable to teach others of Christ (and He is the primary reason for this epistle), need to be taught the basics of the Word of God concerning Christ...are they saved?

Now keep in mind, our writer (ultimately the Holy Spirit), turns aside from his current topic of Christ's Priesthood, to rebuke these people.

It is no different than the modern Pastor preaching information that he knows some in the congregation is in need of hearing.

In 5:14, I propose that those that are of full age/complete are those that are saved/born-again, and that they are contrasted with the ones who are not.

It seems clear, and it is followed by the exhortation in 6:1 to ...go on to perfection/completion, and leave behind the ABCs of Christ.

Your thoughts?

 

[Darrell C]

Addition to previous post.

A side note.

As I have mentioned before, Hebrews contrasts the Old Covenant with the New Covenant, and I believe this is the central theme of Hebrews...what the writer is trying to get across to the hearers.

Jesus, of course, as in all scripture, is the central theme of the central theme...He is the Spirit of all Prophecy (and I think this refers to "He is the life of all prophecy").

This/these contrast/s are the key to unlocking the doctrine of Hebrews.

One of the questions to be asked is this:

is the completion of 5:14 and 6:1 referring to the same thing?

In 5:14 we have:


5046. teleios tel'-i-os from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588) completeness:--of full age, man, perfect.
And in 6:1 we have:


5047. teleiotes tel-i-ot'-ace from 5046; (the state) completeness (mentally or morally):--perfection(-ness).

I would say it is.

In the former we have the individual addressed, the one who has come to what those of 5:11-13 have not,

And in the latter (6:1) we have the completion (in Christ) which they are exhorted to come to.

The separation of the two is in my estimation a mistake.

God bless.

 

[billwald]

>Before the Cross, men were declared Just, but their salvation could not be completed until the sacrifice for their sin was accomplished.

I think the concept of linear time screws up the eschatological concept of theology. God is outside of time thus the "timing" of the resurrection is immaterial.


>As I have mentioned before, Hebrews contrasts the Old Covenant with the New Covenant . . . .

Boggles my mind how dispensationalists can so conveniently forget that each of your dispensations requires a new covenant.

 

[Darrell C]

Hello Billwald

>Before the Cross, men were declared Just, but their salvation could not be completed until the sacrifice for their sin was accomplished.

I think the concept of linear time screws up the eschatological concept of theology. God is outside of time thus the "timing" of the resurrection is immaterial.


>As I have mentioned before, Hebrews contrasts the Old Covenant with the New Covenant . . . .

Boggles my mind how dispensationalists can so conveniently forget that each of your dispensations requires a new covenant.

I agree with your post.

Those before the Cross were declared just, and their salvation was just as sure as those who come to Christ after the Cross.

It was not until after the Cross that their salvation was made complete.

The New Covenant is the last covenant needed in God's plan for man's salvation.

All Covenants (even the Mosaic) will be fulfilled in this one Covenant, ratified by the death of Christ.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Hello to all

A look at this passage.



Hebrews 5:10-6:1 (King James Version)

10Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.



Midstream of his discussion about Christ's priesthood, our writer changes course, to rebuke members of this audience.



Primarily, Hebrews who have been brought up in Judaism, and have as of yet to embrace Christ fully, leaving behind Judaism.


11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.


The "of whom we have many things to say (about)" must be Christ. Some say Melchisadec, but, this is a book about Christ, not Melchisadec.



We can place brackets from this verse to 6:12:



Hebrews 6:12 (King James Version)

12That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.



The word "dull" in 5:11 is the same word "slothful" in 6:12, here is the definition from Strong's:



3576. nothros no-thros' from a derivative of 3541; sluggish, i.e. (literally) lazy, or (figuratively) stupid:--dull, slothful.



They are told that they are nothros in 5:11, and told not to be nothros in 6:12. Verses 13-20 need to be looked at as well, in its reiteration of God's promise to Abraham, the immutability of God's promise and oath, and back to the Priesthood of Christ our writer returns.



Those our writer speaks these words to have been lazy to understand the teachings about Christ.




12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Remember this verse the next time someone tells you there is no need for teachers. While we rely on the Holy Spirit to teach us, teachers also have a place in the Kingdom of God.



This is more than likely why those addressed in these verses are ignorant of "the oracles of God", or, the word of God, as presented in the Law, Prophets, and Psalms.



And the Holy Spirit states clearly...YOU NEED TO BE TAUGHT AGAIN. Will this happen without a teacher? Not here it won't, because that is precisely what our writer (ultimately the Holy Spirit through the writer) is doing here,



He is teaching.



We must be aware what the "first principles" are:



First: 746. arche ar-khay' from 756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank):--beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.



Principles: 4747. stoicheion stoy-khi'-on neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of 4748; something orderly in arrangement, i.e. (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literally), proposition (figuratively):--element, principle, rudiment.



Surprise! It simply means first principles...or, put another way, the beginning principles, or, put an even easier way, the ABCs of the oracles of God.



Now what are the oracles of God?



3051. logion log'-ee-on neuter of 3052; an utterance (of God):--oracle



They are the Word of God. That which is spoken by God, Personally, or through His servants.



We find this same phrase here:



Romans 3:2 (King James Version)

2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.



This verse speaks of the Jews, who were given the Word of God...we call them the Old Testament.



It is also found here:



1 Peter 4:11 (King James Version)

11If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.



We are to try the spirits, whether they be of God. If what a man teaches does not line up with the word of God, count that man as an heretic.



Its one thing for one to be in error on minor doctrine, but quite another to teach that which is clearly against major doctrines of God's word.



But it is our responsibility to learn God's word and will that we might identify demon doctrine.



13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.



Unskilful is:



552. apeiros ap'-i-ros from 1 (as a negative particle) and 3984; inexperienced, i.e. ignorant:--unskilful.



While I hold to the belief that there are three groups presented in Hebrews, believers that are saved, those closely associated with the body of Christ, and those who reject Christ, here we find the general audience addressed are said to be inexperienced/ignorant.



What are they ignorant of?



I think the context is clear, they are ignorant of the basic principles of the word of God concerning Christ.



The woman at the well is a good example of this: she had a knowledge of Messiah, but only basic beliefs concerning Him.



Our writer is saying that they, as well as us, should not be in this state of ignorance, and, if we are, we need to go on to a better understanding.


14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.



Now here, we find (one of) our key study words:



Full age:5046. teleios tel'-i-os from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588) completeness:--of full age, man, perfect.



These are they that have an understanding of Christ. They understand both the strong meat, which is the completion that this book is teaching us about Christ and salvation, as well as the milk... the Old Testament teaching of Christ.



They are not infantile in their understanding, crawling along the floor, sticking things in their mouths (embracing doctrines), not knowing whether they are good or bad.



Our next verse will combine two things from these preceding:



Principles;



Perfection.





Hebrews 6
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,



Principles:746. arche ar-khay' from 756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank):--beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.



This is the same word "first" in 5:12.



That which the hearers are told they are in need of teaching again, which had they not been lazy, they would have already known.



So in 6:1, does our writer say "go and learn again" the beginning teachings?



He does not. Rather, he says to "leave them."



Why?



If your child who is learning to drive gets into an accident, do you then give them a matchbox car and tell them to work on their driving skills?



Not at all. They continue driving a car, which is the "completion" so to speak of what they have learned about driving growing up.



You show the young child the picture, and say, "Car."



They learn to say car.



You give them a tricycle, and they learn basic motor skills.



When the time is right, you give them the keys, and pray.



It is much the same here.



The beginning teachings of Christ are all throughout the Old Testament, and point to the Coming of Messiah.



Now that He is come, there is no longer a need for the "picture".



I hope you enjoy this study. As I have said, by the time you look at the big picture found in Hebrews, there will be no question in your heart concerning the security of Salvation.



I will stop there for now, but we approach a section of scripture that for me is one of my favorites.



We will look at vv. 1-3 of chapter 6 in our next passage.



You might be surprised at what is there, or, you may have already figured it out just by looking at this a little closer, which is my hope for you.



God bless