Perishing without having ever heard the gospel they end up in....

[kyredneck]

Yet scripture clearly says;
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Yet the scripture clearly says what these [devout (2:5)] Jews were saving themselves from:
Acts 2:40
And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.

They weren't saving themselves from hell, but from the terrible wrath that was to come upon 'that generation'. A corollary passage would be:

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues: Rev 18

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet the scripture clearly says what these [devout (2:5)] Jews were saving themselves from:
Acts 2:40
And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.

They weren't saving themselves from hell, but from the terrible wrath that was to come upon 'that generation'. A corollary passage would be:

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues: Rev 18

No, that would be the wrath of God that all sinners face apart from Christ, not just to Israel AD 70!

 

[utilyan]

All humans are rebels to God and His Kingdom. We are like ISIS. We kill, destroy and mistreat our fellow rebels. We are like filthy rags in God's eyes.

Since we are so vile, it means that God is not obligated to be merciful and gracious to any of us. His just response to our rebellious spirit is to utterly condemn us to hell for eternity.

Yet, God does choose to be gracious. His grace is extended not base upon the good works of the rebel. No, we are and will always be filthy rags apart from God's grace. His grace is extended to whom He chooses and He gives us no insight into the decision process that He makes. God is Sovereign. He is not obligated to explain His rationale for His choices. He chooses because He can.
We either accept God's rightful authority or we continue in our rebellion, casting curses upon God and blaming Him for our evil spirit. These are our options, just as Job and his wife demonstrated in Job 2.
God, is therefore just in casting all humanity into the pit. It is only by grace that we are saved.

No scripture backing up this absurdity.

"Filthy rags" is old testament Isaiah 64 attributed to apostate Jews.

Just grabbing any statement from old testament and applying it to entirety of humanity is silly.

If we were so totally depraved then the human nature itself is destroyed and there is NO HUMAN to save at all.

"He is not obligated to explain His rationale for His choices."

False Humility is the worst vanity.

GOD freely does explain his rationale and his choice. The denial of God's command is rebellion

Jesus Christ is THE WORD, GOD's PERSONAL STATEMENT and DECLARATION.


God COMMANDS all not to sin, ERGO, WANTS all mankind not to sin, ERGO, wants all mankind to love GOD and neighbor, ERGO wants ALL MANKIND to be saved.

He temps no one to do evil and always gives a way out of sinning.

The reason folks want to deny THE COMMAND and DESIRES OF GOD, is so they can EXCUSE THEMSELVES with a License to SIN.

They want to make it sound like Christianity has an unknown goal and motive not to be questioned when it "appears" EVIL.

The Nazis of Christianity love it that way. (not saying your a Nazi)



1 timothy 1

5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, 7wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.


The bible clearly states the GOAL of Christianity is LOVE. GOD IS LOVE. Want to make folks sick to their stomach. Keep mentioning God is love. That LOVE is the absolute highest priority.

1 Corinthians 13.

Love is the END ALL AND BE ALL.


Jesus say "Forgive them they know not what they do" and folks will say that scripture is false.

Stephen prayed for God to "NOT HOLD THE SINS COMMITED against his murderers"

Paul declared He would be willing to be damned to go to hell in place of others who separated from Christ.

Christians sound this way. Believe me Jesus, Stephen and Paul are Christians.

And Christians got no problem agreeing with Jesus they WILL pray it themselves "forgive them they know not what they do". Just like Stephen the will pray on the behalf of even unbelievers.


Just Like Paul I can say I would go to hell if it meant saving my brothers and sisters.

But ,There are folks who CALL themselves Christians they would never EVER...E V E R remotely sound like this.

 

[JonC]

Wonderful, eloquent but so what? Where do they end up?

Reason I brought up the gospel aspect is because as Christians we generally believe the gospel has the power to save (ignore diverse Ordos salutis for now). There also appears to be condemnation for those rejecting the gospel. This class of humanity have not had such privilege.

Ultimate those who are found "outside" (of Christ, of the children of God, of the Bride... those who remain unsaved) are found being cast into Hell (the second death) at the Judgment ("on that day").

I do not understand the connection you are making here with people not hearing the gospel message and a final judgement. Scripture teaches that before be gospel of Christ people were already judged, already condemned, for rejecting God (Christ, the Light). These people are not judged guilt of rejecting the gospel message but of having already rejected the Object of that message.

 

[Yeshua1]

No scripture backing up this absurdity.

"Filthy rags" is old testament Isaiah 64 attributed to apostate Jews.

Just grabbing any statement from old testament and applying it to entirety of humanity is silly.

If we were so totally depraved then the human nature itself is destroyed and there is NO HUMAN to save at all.

"He is not obligated to explain His rationale for His choices."

False Humility is the worst vanity.

GOD freely does explain his rationale and his choice. The denial of God's command is rebellion

Jesus Christ is THE WORD, GOD's PERSONAL STATEMENT and DECLARATION.


God COMMANDS all not to sin, ERGO, WANTS all mankind not to sin, ERGO, wants all mankind to love GOD and neighbor, ERGO wants ALL MANKIND to be saved.

He temps no one to do evil and always gives a way out of sinning.

The reason folks want to deny THE COMMAND and DESIRES OF GOD, is so they can EXCUSE THEMSELVES with a License to SIN.

They want to make it sound like Christianity has an unknown goal and motive not to be questioned when it "appears" EVIL.

The Nazis of Christianity love it that way. (not saying your a Nazi)



1 timothy 1

5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, 7wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.


The bible clearly states the GOAL of Christianity is LOVE. GOD IS LOVE. Want to make folks sick to their stomach. Keep mentioning God is love. That LOVE is the absolute highest priority.

1 Corinthians 13.

Love is the END ALL AND BE ALL.


Jesus say "Forgive them they know not what they do" and folks will say that scripture is false.

Stephen prayed for God to "NOT HOLD THE SINS COMMITED against his murderers"

Paul declared He would be willing to be damned to go to hell in place of others who separated from Christ.

Christians sound this way. Believe me Jesus, Stephen and Paul are Christians.

And Christians got no problem agreeing with Jesus they WILL pray it themselves "forgive them they know not what they do". Just like Stephen the will pray on the behalf of even unbelievers.


Just Like Paul I can say I would go to hell if it meant saving my brothers and sisters.

But ,There are folks who CALL themselves Christians they would never EVER...E V E R remotely sound like this.

Regardless if God spoke it in OT/NT, still the word of God , andPaul stated that all have sinned, all fallen short of God, correct?

 

[MB]

Yet the scripture clearly says what these [devout (2:5)] Jews were saving themselves from:
Acts 2:40
And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.

They weren't saving themselves from hell, but from the terrible wrath that was to come upon 'that generation'. A corollary passage would be:

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues: Rev 18

You haven't proven anything The next verse say what they were saved from.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Rev 18 Being a corollary is laughable.
MB

 

[utilyan]

Regardless if God spoke it in OT/NT, still the word of God , andPaul stated that all have sinned, all fallen short of God, correct?

At the time in old testament it was true. However Jesus Christ is one of us, he did not sin and did not fall short.

We are sinners don't get me wrong. Today you can't say all sinned and all fallen short, Jesus Christ broke that for us. Jesus Christ is one of us.


He is quoting old testament not some new doctrine.

The Christian Judaizers believed themselves superior to Christian Gentiles.

And Paul shows them that when they try to force THE LAW it was something THEY could not uphold themselves, they all sinned on it, they all fall short completing it.

Jesus Christ is the only one who completed the Law.

The Judaizers are saying Gentiles are not Justified by the Law, Paul is saying no kidding no one is justified by the Law.

We see Peter elsewhere say to the church in council how can we expect to put the burden on the gentiles something we couldn't handle ourselves.


I can't say hey everything you do is a filthy rag and your nothing but a sinner, because its not the law that justifies you, you are justified by Jesus Christ.

You are under grace. You are not a filthy rag, When God looks at you he will always say my child before he says a sinner.

Jesus Loves you.

Does that mean you have a license to sin now?

Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be!

No license to sin. You can still put yourself in hell.

 

[MennoSota]

[

Yet scripture clearly says;
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
It is not only by Grace that we are saved it is by faith that we even have Grace. Grace always comes through faith.
Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
There you have proof that Grace can only be had through faith. This means you have to believe in Jesus before you ever get any Grace.
MB

You answer your question in Ephesians. Faith is God's gift to those upon whom He extends grace. I love Ephesians 2:8. God tells us that we cannot generate faith until God first extends grace. Faith is the gift God gives after He extends grace. Faith is NOT of ourselves.

Thanks for sharing such a great verse and making my point for me.

 

[MennoSota]

No scripture backing up this absurdity.

"Filthy rags" is old testament Isaiah 64 attributed to apostate Jews.

Just grabbing any statement from old testament and applying it to entirety of humanity is silly.

If we were so totally depraved then the human nature itself is destroyed and there is NO HUMAN to save at all.

"He is not obligated to explain His rationale for His choices."

False Humility is the worst vanity.

GOD freely does explain his rationale and his choice. The denial of God's command is rebellion

Jesus Christ is THE WORD, GOD's PERSONAL STATEMENT and DECLARATION.


God COMMANDS all not to sin, ERGO, WANTS all mankind not to sin, ERGO, wants all mankind to love GOD and neighbor, ERGO wants ALL MANKIND to be saved.

He temps no one to do evil and always gives a way out of sinning.

The reason folks want to deny THE COMMAND and DESIRES OF GOD, is so they can EXCUSE THEMSELVES with a License to SIN.

They want to make it sound like Christianity has an unknown goal and motive not to be questioned when it "appears" EVIL.

The Nazis of Christianity love it that way. (not saying your a Nazi)



1 timothy 1

5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, 7wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.


The bible clearly states the GOAL of Christianity is LOVE. GOD IS LOVE. Want to make folks sick to their stomach. Keep mentioning God is love. That LOVE is the absolute highest priority.

1 Corinthians 13.

Love is the END ALL AND BE ALL.


Jesus say "Forgive them they know not what they do" and folks will say that scripture is false.

Stephen prayed for God to "NOT HOLD THE SINS COMMITED against his murderers"

Paul declared He would be willing to be damned to go to hell in place of others who separated from Christ.

Christians sound this way. Believe me Jesus, Stephen and Paul are Christians.

And Christians got no problem agreeing with Jesus they WILL pray it themselves "forgive them they know not what they do". Just like Stephen the will pray on the behalf of even unbelievers.


Just Like Paul I can say I would go to hell if it meant saving my brothers and sisters.

But ,There are folks who CALL themselves Christians they would never EVER...E V E R remotely sound like this.

Why so angry?

Do you curse God for being Sovereign and choosing whom He wills?

God displayed grace from Genesis to Revelation. He has always chosen whom to redeem out of rebel humanity.

Grace is a wonderful thing.

 

[Agent47]

Ultimate those who are found "outside" (of Christ, of the children of God, of the Bride... those who remain unsaved) are found being cast into Hell (the second death) at the Judgment ("on that day").

I do not understand the connection you are making here with people not hearing the gospel message and a final judgement. Scripture teaches that before be gospel of Christ people were already judged, already condemned, for rejecting God (Christ, the Light). These people are not judged guilt of rejecting the gospel message but of having already rejected the Object of that message.

They end up in hell. Thank you.


What saves a man, God arbitrary choosing you in eternity, or receiving the gospel of Christ?

 

[JonC]

They end up in hell. Thank you.


What saves a man, God arbitrary choosing you in eternity, or receiving the gospel of Christ?

God loved the world in this way, that he sent his one and only Son that whosoever believes would have everlasting life. For a man to be saved, God must save him and he must believe. And when this happens, those who were condemned are condemned no longer. Those who do not believe (whether exposed to the gospel message or not) remain condemned for their rejection of the Light.

 

[Agent47]

God loved the world in this way, that he sent his one and only Son that whosoever believes would have everlasting life. For a man to be saved, God must save him and he must believe. And when this happens, those who were condemned are condemned no longer. Those who do not believe (whether exposed to the gospel message or not) remain condemned for their rejection of the Light.

Can God save a man without the gospel? Is the gospel necessary for salvation?

 

[StefanM]

They end up in hell. Thank you.


What saves a man, God arbitrary choosing you in eternity, or receiving the gospel of Christ?

For a Calvinist, the answer is really both.

 

[JonC]

Can God save a man without the gospel? Is the gospel necessary for salvation?

I won't venture to answer if God "can" save a man without the gospel, but it is plain that God doesn't. Scripture teaches that the gospel is necessary for salvation.

 

[Agent47]

I won't venture to answer if God "can" save a man without the gospel, but it is plain that God doesn't. Scripture teaches that the gospel is necessary for salvation.

What do you make of a necessary instrument for salvation not reaching all men?

God does not Will to save all men?

 

[Iconoclast]

What do you make of a necessary instrument for salvation not reaching all men?

God does not Will to save all men?

No....he never intended to....all kinds of men,yes,every tribe ,kindred ,tongue, and nation....all men who ever lived???? NO.

 

[Agent47]

No....he never intended to....all kinds of men,yes,every tribe ,kindred ,tongue, and nation....all men who ever lived???? NO.

Is it in order to say God does not love these he never intended to save?

For God so loved that He gave....He gave them nothing

God commends his love to uswards in.that while we were yet sinners....He commends nothing

 

[kyredneck]

You haven't proven anything The next verse say what they were saved from.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

???

Rev 18 Being a corollary is laughable.
MB

Rev 18:4 is precisely corollary with Acts 2:40.

Nothing funny about it.

 

[JonC]

What do you make of a necessary instrument for salvation not reaching all men?

God does not Will to save all men?

One of my favorite books is God in the Wasteland by David Wells (I liked this even more than No Place for Truth). Here, Wells more eloquently describes what I make of the gospel not going out to all men than I could ever articulate:

“The fundamental problem in the evangelical world today is not inadequate technique, insufficient organization,, or antiquated music, and those who want to squander the church’s resources bandaging these scratches will do nothing to stanch the flow of blood that is spilling from its true wounds. The fundamental problem in the evangelical world today is that God rests too inconsequentially upon the church. His truth is too distant, his grace is too ordinary, his judgment is too benign, his gospel is too easy, and his Christ is too common.”

That God does not desire that men perish is biblical. But God created men with the capacity of human free agency (here I mean the ability to freely choose). God could have denied men a free will, but then men would lack the capacity to love, hate, obey, disobey…they would be hollow men. So God creates men and desires that all would obey. And man has every opportunity. Even before the gospel is articulated in the work of the Cross God tells man that if they would only turn to Him He would heal them. God reaches out to men, and all men have this opportunity to turn to God and be healed. The Muslim man who never once head the gospel account has this opportunity right now, as we speak. It is within that man’s power, if only he would turn to God. God is a God of means Luke illustrates this in the book of Acts as the Holy Spirit leads one carrying the gospel to one who has been turned towards God, yet is still needing the gospel message.

So yes, God desires that all men be saved and that none perish, for God takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. But God does not violate man’s will to make his purposes come into being. For all to be saved (Universalism) God would have had to saved countless numbers of people while they were kicking and screaming to get free.

The fact that the gospel message does not reach all men has absolutely no bearing on the condemnation of those who will not believe, even those who have not heard the gospel message. They are not condemned for that which they were not entrusted (they are not condemned for rejecting the gospel message, they were already condemned for rejecting Christ).

 

[MennoSota]

They end up in hell. Thank you.


What saves a man, God arbitrary choosing you in eternity, or receiving the gospel of Christ?

You disrespect the sovereignty of God. You and I are so ignorant of God's ways that to claim God's will is arbitrary is a foolish statement. It is coming from your prideful heart.